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SEOS-12 Fusion Max Build (Delta-10A, DNA-350) - Page 2

post #31 of 86
Looking forward to your results!

Am I right in thinking this is one of your first projects? If so you should be good inspiration for all the people on the fence about a kit. Keep up the good work.
post #32 of 86
Thread Starter 
Ha! "...one of first projects..." Whatever do you mean? What gave it away? wink.gif
Yes, very first in DIY speakers. Not much work in any woodworking...like I built a theater riser once. Nothing in mitred joints, cabinetry, or electronics.

I suspect my level of noobery has most beat, and I'd put my own inexperience up against any man's, my finger aways poised ready to click [SUBMIT] if ever HGTV needs contestants for a show like "America's Next Dis-Handied Man."
post #33 of 86
Ha, I was worried I'd look like I was calling you out. Don't worry, you're looking like a pro. I'm a terrible wood worker myself. I just recalled you saying you hadn't done this before. Maybe in this very thread.

It's good to see though. You're flying through this build. And it goes to show most people can do it. It doesn't take much experience to put a flat pack together. Even if someone skipped the bindi and just rolled on some duratex they'd have nice speakers for a dark theatre room where the lights are off or dim 90% of the time.
post #34 of 86
Thread Starter 
Hmm, maybe that's the way to go. After all... my wife thinks I look good, too-- in the dark theater room, dim, 90% of the time, at least.

Actually, if I was doing AT screen today, I would spray paint black and be done with it. But alas, these will be exposed, and I'd like to convince friends of their value and fear guests would look askance at bare MDF or a bad paint job.
post #35 of 86
Thread Starter 

Bondo Stinko

Even though it's not terribly cold out right now (for this time of year), I thought I would Bondo in the storage room / cat box room in the basement instead of trying to warm the garage up. 

 

Bad idea. Wow, that stuff stinks! 

It's when the hardener is mixed in and the reaction takes place that there's some strong off-gassing. 

 

So, I still have to open up windows and the doorway to the garage to exchange air. And I'm banned from using chemicals in the house. 

 

Too bad it's an old, leaky garage, and not a nice new one with in-floor heating like my coworker just built!

Hey, that gives me an idea that maybe I can rent it for a couple nights for the painting? I don't think I'll be able to get mine up to 70 degrees. What do you guys think about 50 degrees?

 

post #36 of 86
Thread Starter 

Paint Delay

I think I'll have to wait until Spring to paint.

 

Bah, my neighbor's garage in-floor heating is actually not installed yet, so that's a no-go. 

 

While the outside will warm to the 30s this Sunday or Monday, and thus I think I can get the garage to the low 60s -- I don't think I can keep it that warm long enough to do several coats of paint I'm reading I'll need to apply (with sandings in between). Sounds like enamel takes a long time to dry between applications to cure, and while I read some people move their speakers indoors to cure, my wife will not accept the off-gassing for several days.

 

So I think I'm going to have to stop at the Bondo (or maybe the primer) phase and wait until it warms up in April. 

post #37 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Paint Delay



I think I'll have to wait until Spring to paint.

Bah, my neighbor's garage in-floor heating is actually not installed yet, so that's a no-go. 

While the outside will warm to the 30s this Sunday or Monday, and thus I think I can get the garage to the low 60s -- I don't think I can keep it that warm long enough to do several coats of paint I'm reading I'll need to apply (with sandings in between). Sounds like enamel takes a long time to dry between applications to cure, and while I read some people move their speakers indoors to cure, my wife will not accept the off-gassing for several days.

So I think I'm going to have to stop at the Bondo (or maybe the primer) phase and wait until it warms up in April. 

Well they will still sound fine naked. Also, if you use Duratex you can paint it indoors and the odor is non-existent. You also do not need to prime it. Just a thought.
post #38 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post


Well they will still sound fine naked. Also, if you use Duratex you can paint it indoors and the odor is non-existent. You also do not need to prime it. Just a thought.

Hmm, I liked the smoother finish that the flat black paint gives, but Duratex is looking more attractive. I didn't know it was non-odor.

 

But, for now, I chose to go naked. I worked on crossovers and finishing them up this past weekend.

post #39 of 86
Thread Starter 

Crossover

Wow, these are are uglier than Java's, let alone MTG's. I'm beginning to wish I had someone do them for me. 

 

I'd have to be really efficient with use of space to fit the LF and HF on one board, so I copied Java's crossovers.

 

I didn't have terminal barriers, so I bought some at Radio Shack. Where, naturally, someone had JUST bought up most of the two-position ones. I had to buy a 4 position and 8 position. 

 

Internal wiring was expensive at RS, and I couldn't find my roll of Romex, so I just used speaker wire. Later, I regret this, because I fear I reversed polarity somewhere on one of the speakers. confused.gif

 

I also burned a pinky, because I'm clumsy, and I cheaped-out and didn't get a soldering iron with a nice holder/guard dealio.

 

I did the HF on Friday and the LF on Saturday. 

post #40 of 86
Thread Starter 

Foam, Polyfill, and ErichFoam

My grandmother passed away on Friday, and I think I was driven to push through all Saturday and finish the speakers enough to listen to them. 

 

I live a couple blocks from JoAnne's, and WalMart is hellish to go to lately (very crowded since the oil boom). So I hoped I could find some mattress-topper type foam there and some polyfill.

 

There was a 50% sale on some foams and fills. I ended up with a 22" square of 2" foam and a 20oz bag of polyfill.

 

I used the thick foam on the back panels, and friction fit it elsewhere where I could. 

 

I had joked earlier about the great half-inch thick gray foam pieces that Erich packed the boxes with, how I hoped that wasn't a part I should use, because the cats loved scratching on it. Well, I actually ended up using it inside the speaker for certain exposed panels. I used spray adhesive.

 

Since I had a bunch of foam inside, I figured that was enough filling that I didn't need another 16oz of polyfill for each speaker, so I used about 10oz for each cabinet.

post #41 of 86
Thread Starter 

Driver Wiring and Install

Some simple things stymied me. Like how to attach the driver to the wire. The DNA-350 was simple, but I'd never wired a woofer before. This had little tabby-clips. I wasn't sure if Java had soldered or what connector he used.

 

After some research I saw the type of connector that slides over it, and the connector is crimped to the end of wire. "I think I might have those!" and I did. Five of them, and I needed 4. I crimped one, but in the wrong location, and it fell apart. I watched a video, and crimped another. But the presenter said to crimp the metal a little tighter so it doesn't fit too loosely. I did so, but it made it too tight to go on. Had to do lots of work on one little end for an hour. Here's a picture from elsewhere of the connectors:

 

I didn't use T-nuts or hurricanes...just used the wood screws Erich provided. Which was probably a mistake, because I think I need to open one up and perform surgery. How well will they hold in the MDF when I screw them in a second time? With the woofer, I can rotate and drill new ones if need be.

 

Connecting the Crossovers to Inputs

Oh god, the horror of my wiring. I soldered my leads from the crossovers to the binding posts. I unscrewed the posts and took the piece you connect the wire to and soldered that to the wires I made up that send the + and - each to the LF and HF crossover boards. (here is maybe where I screwed one up?)

 

It took forever to solder these: the binding post metal took longer to heat up and the wire would get too hot to hold so I kept moving my hand father away. Pliers and my wife helped get it done, but it was ugly. One solder joint I tried to take apart, and failed, so I gooped more solder on and called it good.

post #42 of 86
Thread Starter 

Listening...aw crap

I finished around 3am Saturday. Too late for a movie or measurements, but we watched one show on the DVR. That, and my playing some movie tracks on Sunday, it sounded kind of "phasey," like when the DVE disk or THX Optimizer plays out of phase signals and it's harder to locate sounds. 

 

So, imaging went downhill. However, just like everyone says, I found the volume going up way higher than before. Like -5dBFS. 

 

To fix/diagnose this, I thought I may have reversed polarity somewhere. Wiring up so late Saturday night / Sunday morning probably made me more error-prone than usual!

 

To test/fix this, during the SuperBowl, I swapped the right speaker's inputs from receiver. This seemed to clean it up. Sounds seem to lock on the screen better.

They sound pretty good, but I think I'm missing mid-bass.

 

Measurements with REW make me think that maybe it's not as simple as that. I suspect just the tweeter or woofer is wired wrong on one of the interconnects? 

 

I'm thinking on testing this evening by sending 300hz to both speakers, measure dB, then reverse polarity on inputs. Then also do it with a 3kHz signal.

 

Any other thoughts as to diagnosing this kind of screwup (which speaker, LF or HF?) before I open them up? Of course I feel so stupid and sick, wanting to bask  in the SEOS greatness but having mucked it up. frown.gif

post #43 of 86
Hey Eyleron,

Sounds like you're right on schedule. So close, yet so far. Wiring everything in a rush is a mistake I still make. I'll say to my wife, "I'm just gonna quickly solder a few things, give me 5 minutes" and then 20 minutes later I've got burns on my fingers. The speakers are playing music but something is wrong. I look at the xo the next day and think, "if I had just taken my time". Haha, so know you're in the majority here biggrin.gif

Do this. Find a batter and clip positive to positive and negative to negative on the speaker terminals. The woofer should move out. Flip the polarity and the woofer should move in. If that happens in the opposite direction, your woofer is out of polarity.

This is a reverse tweeter polarity speaker. Use a SPL meter or microphone and REW or some signal generator. Put the mic about 1m from the tweeter on tweeter axis. Turn on the signal generator to about 1200hz. Take a reading. Now try 5000hz and 800hz. All three SPL readings should be within, oh lets say 5db. That's a wide range, but you're in a room so who knows. If the 1200hz reading is something like 10db less than the other 2 readings, then your tweeter is out of phase with the woofer. As in, it's wired straight polarity and should be reverse polarity. Confusing, I know.

If you do those two things, we'll figure it out. The battery test is the first and easier thing to try. I'm going guess though that its the tweeter. If you have to start pulling things, take pictures of the boards so I can make sure there's no wiring mistakes. It might not be polarity. Could be something else.
post #44 of 86
Thread Starter 
You mean, there's hope? smile.gif

Ha, yeah, there were several five-minutes-become-twenty-minutes sessions!

I will proceed with the Battery Powered Wireless Speaker build.
post #45 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Hey Eyleron,

Sounds like you're right on schedule. So close, yet so far. Wiring everything in a rush is a mistake I still make. I'll say to my wife, "I'm just gonna quickly solder a few things, give me 5 minutes" and then 20 minutes later I've got burns on my fingers. The speakers are playing music but something is wrong. I look at the xo the next day and think, "if I had just taken my time". Haha, so know you're in the majority here biggrin.gif

Do this. Find a batter and clip positive to positive and negative to negative on the speaker terminals. The woofer should move out. Flip the polarity and the woofer should move in. If that happens in the opposite direction, your woofer is out of polarity.

This is a reverse tweeter polarity speaker. Use a SPL meter or microphone and REW or some signal generator. Put the mic about 1m from the tweeter on tweeter axis. Turn on the signal generator to about 1200hz. Take a reading. Now try 5000hz and 800hz. All three SPL readings should be within, oh lets say 5db. That's a wide range, but you're in a room so who knows. If the 1200hz reading is something like 10db less than the other 2 readings, then your tweeter is out of phase with the woofer. As in, it's wired straight polarity and should be reverse polarity. Confusing, I know.

If you do those two things, we'll figure it out. The battery test is the first and easier thing to try. I'm going guess though that its the tweeter. If you have to start pulling things, take pictures of the boards so I can make sure there's no wiring mistakes. It might not be polarity. Could be something else.

It's worth repeating for Eyleron that you need to reverse polarity of the tweeter for this build. Not all are like that, but for this design you need to hook them up reversed. Woofer is a straight connection.

Eyleron,

Shoot a picture of the board you put together. You never know... I messed up my crossover build for my mains and it was an easy fix.

Last, in addition to the REW checks Tux suggests, did you check the impedance? It should be around 6.4 ohms. I'm a noob, but maybe the would point to some bad connection. On that, I had a bad joint in my surround build. It surprised me since I wrapped the wires before soldering (solder was more glue than connector), but there it was.

Good luck.
post #46 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post


It's worth repeating for Eyleron that you need to reverse polarity of the tweeter for this build. Not all are like that, but for this design you need to hook them up reversed. Woofer is a straight connection.

Eyleron,

Shoot a picture of the board you put together. You never know... I messed up my crossover build for my mains and it was an easy fix.

Ha, yes, definitely worth repeating. Tux did write that in the schematic. I saw that note, and thought it was a note to himself or something. 

 

So, I definitely reversed the compression driver connections.

 

Sorry, I thought I'd added the photos of the LF and HF crossovers of one speaker. Here goes...

 


Edited by Eyleron - 2/4/13 at 6:36pm
post #47 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Do this. Find a batter and clip positive to positive and negative to negative on the speaker terminals. The woofer should move out. Flip the polarity and the woofer should move in. If that happens in the opposite direction, your woofer is out of polarity.

Battery Woofer Polarity Test

I did the battery test. The woofer moved out when connected positive-to-positive on both speakers.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
This is a reverse tweeter polarity speaker. Use a SPL meter or microphone and REW or some signal generator. Put the mic about 1m from the tweeter on tweeter axis. Turn on the signal generator to about 1200hz. Take a reading. Now try 5000hz and 800hz. All three SPL readings should be within, oh lets say 5db. That's a wide range, but you're in a room so who knows. If the 1200hz reading is something like 10db less than the other 2 readings, then your tweeter is out of phase with the woofer. As in, it's wired straight polarity and should be reverse polarity. Confusing, I know.

If you do those two things, we'll figure it out. The battery test is the first and easier thing to try. I'm going guess though that its the tweeter. If you have to start pulling things, take pictures of the boards so I can make sure there's no wiring mistakes. It might not be polarity. Could be something else.

Tweeter Out of Phase with Woofer Test

I tested, and although it wasn't down 10dB at crossover from 800hz, it was down 10db from 500hz.

  right speaker

   500 71 db
   800 68 db
1,200 61 db 
5,000 73 db

 

left speaker

   500 67 db
   800 71 db
1,200 63 db
5,000 70 db
 
Strange that the left speaker is only 7db down. Maybe I did at least two things wrong:
  1. Didn't reverse the tweeter polarity as I should have.
  2. Accidentally reversed polarity on only one speaker (which is good, in that I accidentally followed Tux's instructions. Bad in that I wasn't following my own.)

 

See, what bothers me, is that if I failed to reverse the tweeters, why did the imaging sound better when I swapped polarity at the speaker level yesterday? Placebo? 

 

I'll check that both are reversed as per design.


Edited by Eyleron - 2/4/13 at 6:34pm
post #48 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Last, in addition to the REW checks Tux suggests, did you check the impedance? It should be around 6.4 ohms. I'm a noob, but maybe the would point to some bad connection. On that, I had a bad joint in my surround build. It surprised me since I wrapped the wires before soldering (solder was more glue than connector), but there it was.

I tried to check impedance between components and different joints like you do in your video. I would get weird readings most times, like it was too low to report. I got discouraged. If I want to measure the whole speaker, can I do this now at the binding posts?


Edited by Eyleron - 2/4/13 at 8:01pm
post #49 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post


See, what bothers me, is that if I failed to reverse the tweeters, why did the imaging sound better when I swapped polarity at the speaker level yesterday? Placebo? 

I'll check that both are reversed as per design.
That actually makes sense if in fact one of your tweeters is wired backwards, as a lot of imaging cues reside in the upper frequencies. When you reversed one set of speaker leads you brought the tweeters back into correct phase - but knocked the woofers out of phase at the same time, hence the big drop in midbass you noticed.
post #50 of 86
Well, your cross over looks wired right. Your woofers are in the correct polarity. But the SPL test isn't as conclusive as I hoped. I would think they're both wired the same: wrong. But I'm not 100% sure.

I should start by asking, when you did the REW thing, was audessay and all that jazz turned off? I helped a guy recently who was getting a weird measurement, and that was the problem in the end.

And one last thing, what was the distance from the mic to the tweeter/baffle. If to close, it'll cause a null at 1200hz.
post #51 of 86
And maybe listen to them a little more before tearing everything apart. Save yourself from a potential head ache. Good to take a breather and make sure it's not something silly like your avr is set to HALL or something by accident. (That would sound phasy biggrin.gif )
post #52 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post


That actually makes sense if in fact one of your tweeters is wired backwards, as a lot of imaging cues reside in the upper frequencies. When you reversed one set of speaker leads you brought the tweeters back into correct phase - but knocked the woofers out of phase at the same time, hence the big drop in midbass you noticed.

Spot on! I opened both of them up by removing the horn.

The left speaker: wired backwards, as directed, but not as I intended in my fatigued state. 

Right speaker: wired positive to positive, not reversed, not as directed.

post #53 of 86
Oh good to hear!! biggrin.gif
post #54 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well, your cross over looks wired right. Your woofers are in the correct polarity. But the SPL test isn't as conclusive as I hoped. I would think they're both wired the same: wrong. But I'm not 100% sure.

I should start by asking, when you did the REW thing, was audessay and all that jazz turned off? I helped a guy recently who was getting a weird measurement, and that was the problem in the end.

And one last thing, what was the distance from the mic to the tweeter/baffle. If to close, it'll cause a null at 1200hz.

Oh, to be so triumphant at first. The theory was proven out: only one tweeter was correct. I fixed the "wrong" tweeter in right speaker. Sure that the numbers will come out closer to the left speaker. ....  wah?

 

right speaker revised
   500 71 db
   800 64 db
1,200 58 db
5,000 68 db
 
It's worse?!  eek.gif Despondant.
 
That's a good point about the Room EQ thing. I'll turn MCACC off and run again. 
post #55 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
That's a good point about the Room EQ thing. I'll turn MCACC off and run again. 

Crossover Test: MCACC Off

Well, the numbers changed a bit, but not so much at crossover.

 

right speaker revised no MCACC
   500 70 db
   800 65 db
1,200 58 db
5,000 70 db
 
Can anyone recommend good music and films that don't have any content between 800hz and 2,000hz?  I'll need to avoid an octave or so. wink.gif 
post #56 of 86
What frown.gif
post #57 of 86
Thread Starter 

Does this mean that if the woofers are correct polarity, and the tweeters are now correct polarity, and I have now an even more marked dip at crossover, it's next the wiring or the crossovers themselves of the right speaker?

 

Any other low-hanging-fruit to start with?

post #58 of 86
The woofers are right we know that from the battery test.

The lead coming off the last capacitor on the HF board goes into the negative terminal of the tweeter? And the positive tweeter terminal goes into the ground/negative of the board?

Have you tried listening since the switch? If the phasy mess is gone but there's a hole in the response around the cross over, they maybe both out of phase. If that makes sense.

I knew reversing the tweet polarity was going to be a pain. Sorry it's such a pain.
post #59 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The woofers are right we know that from the battery test.

The lead coming off the last capacitor on the HF board goes into the negative terminal of the tweeter? And the positive tweeter terminal goes into the ground/negative of the board?

Have you tried listening since the switch? If the phasy mess is gone but there's a hole in the response around the cross over, they maybe both out of phase. If that makes sense.

I knew reversing the tweet polarity was going to be a pain. Sorry it's such a pain.

I haven't checked the wiring inside the right speaker aside from the tweeter polarity. I guess that's next.

 

No no no, it's not a pain, don't be sorry. Reversing the polarity wasn't a pain...that was easy! In diagnostics we tend to look/hope for one cause.  It's finding that there's more than one thing wrong with the patient that's the pain-- but that's not your fault.

 

I did an impedance check on the speakers' binding posts. 5.8ohm on right speaker, 8.3ohm on left. Not sure what one should expect measuring that way?

 

Tomorrow I'll tear apart the right speaker and see what I can find.

 

I sure wish I used red and black wiring like Java did, instead of speaker wire where the negative has a faint white stripe running down it and silver metal. It's hard to discern in low light and probably too easy for me to mix up.


Thanks for all your help guys!

post #60 of 86
8.3 ohms on the left isn't right. That's to high. The 5.8 ohms is about right, maybe a touch low, but probably is fine.

Not sure how there's 8.3 ohms. Ill look at your xo pics again.
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