SEOS-12 Fusion Max Build (Delta-10A, DNA-350) - Page 3

Thank you so much. If I can't find a problem with wiring, I will next ask which points to measure with the meter on crossovers.

So I should measure impedance on the leads to the drivers with them disconnected from the crossover, and they should measure in ohms as whatever Eminence has for the 12A, and whatever B&C has for the DE250?

 

Can I measure at the outputs of a given crossover: LF or HF and expect so many ohms? 

I measured again and both were 5.8 ohms.

I'm going to listen to them for a while before opening again.

These are fantastic speakers!

Ha, sorry for the delay. I've had big messes and trashes from the speaker construction over the past couple weeks. Sawdust, tools, clamps that must be gathered up and matched with their receipts to return to the netherworld I had the misfortune to purchase them from.

 

I have been listening, so far more films like Casino Royale, and Iron Man 2, and some TV the last three nights with the wife, but also running REW sweeps. So tired of the sweeps tonight! And I'm sure my wife is too, bless her heart. 

 

I've enjoyed what I've been listening to. I feel like I want to run the subs hotter, but then when I measure I'm surprised to see it like 8dB hot, and I back it down. I might be trying to overcome a mid-bass null with the subs.

I'll post some graphs later.

 

I come back to what is sounding cliché now with people's SEOS speakers: 

• Wall of sound
• A clarity I'm not used to
• Effortless volume
  it's easy to be at -5, sounds closer to a commercial movie theater with good sound, where it'll be more in your face.
  But previously with the Paradigms I would have been wincing and lowering it back down to -10 or -12 for sure. 

 

Measurement Schmeasurement

In measuring I worry about the dip at 1,600 hz (about 1,100 to 1,900). I was concerned that was the crossover dip I was measuring 2 feet away the other night. 

But when I moved the speakers elsewhere in the room, the dip wasn't so bad. And then when I swapped in Paradigm Titans, they had the same dip. The Fusions have an 1,100hz crossover I think, so either I screwed something up in the crossover construction, or the dip I'm seeing is totally unrelated. I'd think about measuring outside, but 10 degrees....
 

So that bears more investigation later. 

 

The impedance measurement....I don't know how I got over 8 ohms on one speaker before...I'm sorry about that. Maybe the meter didn't settle yet? Maybe not enough contact with the meter leads?

I'm not sure what would make 5.8 ohms instead of 6.3...is it some poor solder points, or stranded speaker wire giving way at some connection? For instance, the wire that comes from the wall for the right speaker...as I disconnected and reconnected last night, 2/3 the strands broke off.  I'd like to say "These SEOS speakers blew apart my 14 gauge wires!" but it's simply had too much strain over the past years. 

 

Acoustics

I'm frustrated by my seating position. About half-way back in a 24' long room is not ideal. 11.5' wide from drywall to drywall and a 109" screen doesn't leave much room for speakers.

Some to-do projects are: 

• False wall for screen with absorption (I have no corner traps or front-wall panels yet...just some side panels).
  Maybe with this great controlled directivity, I should consider removing some of the side wall panels and move them to front and back? It's been a year since I did ETC analysis and played with the placement of panels and tried to eliminate early reflections, so it might be time to do that again. I think others have said these speakers could use more rear wall treatment (or diffusion if I went that route).
   
• That would allow the front speakers out into the room more. Getting them out of the corners makes some peaks and dips go away, but it reintroduces others.
  What was striking today is when I did something for the first time: I moved them towards the center of the room (x-axis) where they might be placed behind a screen. Measured WAY flatter! 
  Also, when they were in pulled from front-wall-one-foot mode (z-axis), I stuffed blankets and pillows back there. This also improved a bunch of dips and peaks. 
   
• I'd like to change the position of my riser for the second row of seats to yield a smoother response for the front row.

 

As you guys know, playing with this stuff eats up a lot of time, so that's where part of last night and most of tonight went. 

I guess I'm saying: it's like having a new sports car and now I'm more picky about the roads to drive it on.

 

Tomorrow is U2, Eagles, Norah Jones. 

 

I Love These Speakers

The SEOS Fusion-10 Max are jaw dropping for us, and they blow away the local theater (or anybody's system I've heard) in every respect. 

 

I was concerned about not having the center speaker, but for now I have no worries: seamless horizontal pans; dialogue, instruments, and effects locked onto the screen and centered or left-of-center or wherever they need to be.
It works great, and it's better than when I had a dedicated center speaker under the screen. I've "Waslo'd" or "Parham'd" the speakers so they crossfire, and I used the meter to make sure that my wife's and my seats get a decibel or so more volume out of the farther speaker for time-intensity-trading. Fun stuff!

 

I'm using a tenth of the power I was previously...or less, because not only are these speakers more than 10dB more sensitive, but I have dropped the center speaker for now. So just using the receiver alone, I'm sure I could go to +10. Or, I should say, the system could do this...not sure I can. These are crazy sensitive, and if for some reason I needed more out of 'em, I could find a used Parasound or get an XPA-3 or something. But really, I'm kind of embarrassed having speakers this capable as it is. They're loafing in my room as I sit 12 feet away. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for much larger rooms like the 2,000 ft^2 and larger spaces some people need to fill. 

 

I no longer feel like the speakers are holding me back. Maybe my ears, or the source material, and definitely the subs and the room itself...but not these speakers. "Front sound-stage: check!" 
And that's a good feeling indeed.

Edited by Eyleron - 2/6/13 at 9:29pm

Ugh yours have to be another 30% heavier than mine.

Room treatments: six x 2“ thick 2' x 4' panels on side walls. I played moving two of the panels to be next to or behind speakers.

No bass traps.

EQ is BFD for subs and the original MCACC in receiver which gives one 125hz, 250hz, 4khz, 13khz.

Done!

Missing Bass

I have roll-off at 100 Hz.

Tuxedocivic said that although the raw response in the graph is to 100hz, with a ported design as I have, it should expect to 55 Hz.

I had tried removing the polyfil, leaving the foam, which didn't change the bass response (when I ran sweeps sans subs).

He suggests that the remaining foam, if closed-cell, could be eating up the cabinet volume. I calculate that I could be losing a cubic foot of volume. 

I'll measure again and compare to other speakers and try different positions without subs, and I'll pull out foam from one speaker to see what's up.

Soo...
I measured more and realized that because my range was limited to 500 hz, it made it look like the speakers were down at ~100 hz, when really the response was elevated at 150 hz and 250 hz. AND there is a big dip centered at 65 hz, which pulled the response down when measuring only the mains without subs.

Measuring to 20khz made it obvious, as did turning off my ancient version of MCACC which only has bands of 40hz, 150hz, 250hz, 4khz, and 13khz. There were big boosts at 150 and 250,

Interestingly, it was hard to avoid the drop at 65hz...i had to move speakers way into the room. And I was wrong about the Paradigms. I was remembering from before the last MCACC run, which i made worse by trying to correct neighboring frequency dips without looking at the big picture. I think I had too much smoothing on the graphs the other week, too, which I know Tuxedocivic wouldn't like.

Oh, and the foam I yanked out of one speaker was open cell...I was able to respirate through it just fine and response didn't change much...just more ringing at higher freqs.

I think I'm so afraid I messed up something I am crying wolf too soon.

Oh well, I have a flatter response now and I know I need a newer receiver sooner

My wife just shakes her head when she comes downstairs and I'm in the midst of running sweeps, jogging to front of room, re-position speaker, running the sweep again.

And then, the best part-- seeing rolled bales of insulation, blankets, and pillows stacked up in corners, or a 2" absorption panel strangely straddling a corner. 

 

It's amazing how much difference it can make on the graph. What does puzzle me is when I add corner absorption and I see at some frequencies the graph get more ragged with increased peaks/valleys. 

 

I just need to start with some front corner traps behind the two speakers, and work towards building a screen wall.