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Sub setup ?'s - Page 2

post #31 of 66
1/24/13 at 10:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Ask about the test tones in the 3313 thread in the Amps, Receivers and Processors Forum. Someone in there will know. Or contact forum member "Batpig." He's the Denon expert. But, yeah, it's almost certainly -30 dBFS.

Question asked, and answered...
Member "Batpig" confirmed the test tones are -30dbFS (Thank you again)

So, I think, given my proposed setup scheme, I should get close to the recommended +/- 3db trim level if I set everything to 75db on the SPL meter before running Audyssey.
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post #32 of 66
1/25/13 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Now that Bill and Craig have some measurements to look at, they'll be able to tell you a lot more. smile.gif
The FR measurements are not the measurements I would use to guide this decision. The FR measurements are usually done at 75 or 85 dB. The FR at those levels may not hold up at higher levels. The FR at higher levels may fall off at 100 or 105 dB.

These are the measurements I would use to guide this decision:

Bass output, tower (CEA-2010 standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 103.6 dB
• Low bass (40-63 Hz): 110.5 dB

At 40 Hz and above, the powered woofers will produce significantly more output than at 20 to 31.5 Hz. Add to that the commentary that "It’s not distortion that limits the useful output in this case but either mechanical noise from the woofer cone or the amplifier’s internal limiter stepping in to protect the driver." IMO, the entire system will sound better if the speakers are run with crossovers and the lowest bass is redirected to the sub. I would start with a 40 Hz crossover. That way you'll be using the strong output range of the woofers, and you'll get the benefit of modal response smoothing down to 40 Hz.... and even below, (the LPF is not a brick wall; most receivers use a 2nd order LPF on the speakers, so you'll still have some output below 40 Hz and you'll only be down 12 dB at 20 Hz.)

Of course, there is one advantage to setting them up on the subwoofer output... you get Audyssey EQ applied to the combined response of all the subs. With the above setup, Audyssey will EQ each speaker individually down to 40 Hz, but that may not be the optimal EQ for the combined response of the individual speakers and sub. This where experimentation will come in. ceh383, do you have any measurement equipment?

Craig
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post #33 of 66
1/25/13 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

This may help the discussion: some measurements of the 8060ST from S&V.
They show the 8060 to be -10dB at 20Hz, which is OK, as the useable range is defined as the -10dB points at either end of the spectrum. While that might bother some of the bass nuts over in the DIY section who think that anything less than -10dB at 2Hz isn't acceptable, it's quite adequate for most of us, and at least as good as probably half the subs out there. It's pretty close to the SVS PC12 in sealed mode. I see no reason why you couldn't run these together. The 8060s may or may not go quite as low as the SVS, or quite as loud individually, but unless you're pushing them right to their limits that shouldn't matter. There's no question in my mind that the three subs together will work better than the SVS alone.
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post #34 of 66
1/25/13 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's pretty close to the SVS PC12 in sealed mode. I see no reason why you couldn't run these together.
Sealed mode? Is that what you would suggest?



Sealed mode is the yellow trace. "Sealed Mode: 30-150 Hz +/- 3 dB" That is not the mode I would suggest unless one had 3 or 4 of these subs, and some way to boost the low end.

Craig
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post #35 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

ceh383, do you have any measurement equipment?

At the moment I have a cheapo SPL meter, with the ability to burrow a quality SPL meter on weekends as long as it is not in use.

I'm a bit over budget on the system so purchasing any other measuring equipment will have to be done a little down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Sealed mode? Is that what you would suggest?

I'm interested in the answer to this, I was planning on running it ported, 20Hz tuned

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The 8060s may or may not go quite as low as the SVS, or quite as loud individually, but unless you're pushing them right to their limits that shouldn't matter. There's no question in my mind that the three subs together will work better than the SVS alone.

This is what I'm hoping for...
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post #36 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:18am
A suggestion, does your sound meter have a microphone out on it? If so, download a copy of REW and attach your sound meter to your laptop and do some room measurements.

Download a copy of REW. REW is a freeware room measuring program.

Go to their help section.

Go to: "Getting Started with REW"

Go to: "Connections"

And there you'll find pictures showing how to hook up your sound meter to be used as a measuring microphone. Cheap, hard to learn but an inexpensive way to get into room analyzing so you can see how your speakers are interacting with your Home Theater room's acoustics.
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post #37 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A suggestion, does your sound meter have a microphone out on it? If so, download a copy of REW and attach your sound meter to your laptop and do some room measurements.

Download a copy of REW. REW is a freeware room measuring program.

Go to their help section.

Go to: "Getting Started with REW"

Go to: "Connections"

And there you'll find pictures showing how to hook up your sound meter to be used as a measuring microphone. Cheap, hard to learn but an inexpensive way to get into room analyzing so you can see how your speakers are interacting with your Home Theater room's acoustics.

Thanks for the info...

The cheapo's mic is built in with no external connections. I'm not sure about the meter we have at work, I'll have to look into it.
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post #38 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Thanks for the info...

The cheapo's mic is built in with no external connections. I'm not sure about the meter we have at work, I'll have to look into it.

In the meantime, allow me to encourage, download a copy of REW and start familiarizing yourself with it's interface.
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post #39 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In the meantime, allow me to encourage, download a copy of REW and start familiarizing yourself with it's interface.

Will do when I get home from work.
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post #40 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Will do when I get home from work.

Since you're at work, can you stop by the lab to check and see if the work related sound meter has a microphone out on it? The sound meter we currently have has the microphone out labeled simply as "output."
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post #41 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Since you're at work, can you stop by the lab to check and see if the work related sound meter has a microphone out on it? The sound meter we currently have has the microphone out labeled simply as "output."

It has two outputs, 1 labeled "Recorder Output" and the other labeled "Ext Filter"
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post #42 of 66
1/25/13 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

It has two outputs, 1 labeled "Recorder Output" and the other labeled "Ext Filter"

"Recorder Output" That's the ticket. biggrin.gif
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post #43 of 66
1/25/13 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Sealed mode? Is that what you would suggest?
I suggest what sounds best. That will have to be determined by the OP. I certainly wouldn't assume that either of the vented modes would work better based on half-space anechoic results; it's in-room results that matter.
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post #44 of 66
1/25/13 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I suggest what sounds best. That will have to be determined by the OP. I certainly wouldn't assume that either of the vented modes would work better based on half-space anechoic results; it's in-room results that matter.
Can't disagree with that.
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post #45 of 66
1/25/13 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I certainly wouldn't assume that either of the vented modes would work better based on half-space anechoic results; it's in-room results that matter.

I guess I will try out all 3 tuning modes, it could take a while...It depends on the wife annoyance factor...
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post #46 of 66
1/25/13 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

I guess I will try out all 3 tuning modes, it could take a while...It depends on the wife annoyance factor...
Give her a couple of C notes and send her out to buy shoes. That will take at least one full day. biggrin.gif
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post #47 of 66
1/25/13 at 4:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Give her a couple of C notes and send her out to buy shoes. That will take at least one full day. biggrin.gif
Not if she's anything like my wife, lol
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post #48 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Give her a couple of C notes and send her out to buy shoes. That will take at least one full day. biggrin.gif

I wish it were that easy, she's the only woman I've ever met that doesn't like shopping...
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post #49 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In the meantime, allow me to encourage, download a copy of REW and start familiarizing yourself with it's interface.

I downloaded and installed it, been looking at the manual....Lots more reading to do...
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post #50 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

she's the only woman I've ever met that doesn't like shopping...
Grab a hold of her and never let her go.wink.gif
Does she have a sister?
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post #51 of 66
1/25/13 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Grab a hold of her and never let her go.wink.gif

That's the plan...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Does she have a sister?

No, 2 brothers, 1 unmarried.....you can have him if you want....LOL
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post #52 of 66
1/26/13 at 8:53am
Thread Starter 
Per the recommendations in the REW manual, I ordered a external USB sound card. I also had to order some cables to get it all hooked up.
The sub will be here Monday, I hope the rest the stuff will be here by Friday so I can get to work on the setup next weekend...
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post #53 of 66
1/26/13 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The FR measurements are not the measurements I would use to guide this decision. The FR measurements are usually done at 75 or 85 dB. The FR at those levels may not hold up at higher levels. The FR at higher levels may fall off at 100 or 105 dB.

These are the measurements I would use to guide this decision:

Bass output, tower (CEA-2010 standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 103.6 dB
• Low bass (40-63 Hz): 110.5 dB

At 40 Hz and above, the powered woofers will produce significantly more output than at 20 to 31.5 Hz. Add to that the commentary that "It’s not distortion that limits the useful output in this case but either mechanical noise from the woofer cone or the amplifier’s internal limiter stepping in to protect the driver." IMO, the entire system will sound better if the speakers are run with crossovers and the lowest bass is redirected to the sub. I would start with a 40 Hz crossover. That way you'll be using the strong output range of the woofers, and you'll get the benefit of modal response smoothing down to 40 Hz.... and even below, (the LPF is not a brick wall; most receivers use a 2nd order LPF on the speakers, so you'll still have some output below 40 Hz and you'll only be down 12 dB at 20 Hz.)

Of course, there is one advantage to setting them up on the subwoofer output... you get Audyssey EQ applied to the combined response of all the subs. With the above setup, Audyssey will EQ each speaker individually down to 40 Hz, but that may not be the optimal EQ for the combined response of the individual speakers and sub. This where experimentation will come in. ceh383, do you have any measurement equipment?

Craig

craig john, I am looking at also getting the def tech system while it is on sale 8060st L/R, 8040 Center, 8040 surrounds. I want to eventually add an external sub and do exactly what you said and. Let the sub do the work it should (20Hz-40Hz range). Here lays my dilemna. I am looking at getting a Pioneer 1222-k on sale at newegg for 549. The problem with the 1222-k is that they have one global xo for the AVR. How would or could this be accomplished with that AVR or should i be looking for a different AVR all together. I really wanted that one because it was a good price, offered pre-outs, and seemed like value for the money. I would like to have the 8060s run in the 40-80ish range while setting the center/surrounds to a 80Hz xo
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post #54 of 66
1/26/13 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

craig john, I am looking at also getting the def tech system while it is on sale 8060st L/R, 8040 Center, 8040 surrounds. I want to eventually add an external sub and do exactly what you said and. Let the sub do the work it should (20Hz-40Hz range). Here lays my dilemna. I am looking at getting a Pioneer 1222-k on sale at newegg for 549. The problem with the 1222-k is that they have one global xo for the AVR. How would or could this be accomplished with that AVR or should i be looking for a different AVR all together. I really wanted that one because it was a good price, offered pre-outs, and seemed like value for the money. I would like to have the 8060s run in the 40-80ish range while setting the center/surrounds to a 80Hz xo

By no means am I an expert, otherwise I'd be answering questions, not asking them....
IMO I'd look for an AVR that allows for XO of the front, center, and surrounds to be set individually. This gives you more tune-ability, which, depending on your room, may be required.

I over bought everything in my system, hopefully eliminating the NEED to upgrade in a few months...
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post #55 of 66
1/26/13 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post


By no means am I an expert, otherwise I'd be answering questions, not asking them....
IMO I'd look for an AVR that allows for XO of the front, center, and surrounds to be set individually. This gives you more tune-ability, which, depending on your room, may be required.

I over bought everything in my system, hopefully eliminating the NEED to upgrade in a few months...

How happy are you with the def tech 8060 system? Did you go with the 8060 or 8040 center? Thanks for your feedback!
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post #56 of 66
1/26/13 at 9:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

How happy are you with the def tech 8060 system? Did you go with the 8060 or 8040 center? Thanks for your feedback!

Fronts BP8060ST
Center CS8040HD
Surrounds SR8040BP

AVR Denon 3313ci


Overall, I'm very happy with the system. For music, they sound very, very good. For movies, to my tastes, they're just a slight bit lacking on the bottom end.
When I purchased them I planned on buying a separate sub, I was hoping the built-in subs would allow me to put it off for a while.
But, I decided to pull the trigger on the sub now rather than wait till later.

Sound is very subjective, and your room plays a large part in what you hear....What sounds good to me may sound like rubbish to you....Keep that in mind....
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post #57 of 66
1/26/13 at 9:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Fronts BP8060ST
Center CS8040HD
Surrounds SR8040BP

AVR Denon 3313ci


Overall, I'm very happy with the system. For music, they sound very, very good. For movies, to my tastes, they're just a slight bit lacking on the bottom end.
When I purchased them I planned on buying a separate sub, I was hoping the built-in subs would allow me to put it off for a while.
But, I decided to pull the trigger on the sub now rather than wait till later.

Sound is very subjective, and your room plays a large part in what you hear....What sounds good to me may sound like rubbish to you....Keep that in mind....

I like that setup a lot! I wanted that AVR as well, just a little too much money for me if i get everything else. So with your new sub do you find the bottom end lacking or is HT experience great now? Also, does the music give you that "in concert" feeling?
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post #58 of 66
1/26/13 at 9:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

I like that setup a lot! I wanted that AVR as well, just a little too much money for me if i get everything else. So with your new sub do you find the bottom end lacking or is HT experience great now? Also, does the music give you that "in concert" feeling?

Don't know yet, the sub will be here Monday. I will post my review after I get it all "dialed in"
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post #59 of 66
1/26/13 at 9:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Don't know yet, the sub will be here Monday. I will post my review after I get it all "dialed in"

Can't wait to hear about it! You are a great setup and im sure you will be set for awhile
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post #60 of 66
1/27/13 at 4:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Per the recommendations in the REW manual, I ordered a external USB sound card. I also had to order some cables to get it all hooked up.

Beware. The act you have committed has lit a nerd candle in you. You'll become obsessed with getting the flattest frequency graph possible. All other sound reproduction actions will be forsaken. Once you're consumed by this need, you'll never read another setup question the same. "You will be assimilated."...............The Borg.

Day one: "It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood."

---fast forward---

Day four: Lost in the living room, moving sub's position and changing settings. Forgot, what was the setting three measurements ago that improved the Left shoulder so much. Must remember to make lab notes.

Day five: What if I place the sub here and change the setting on the other sub to compensate for the change? Will there be a net synergistic affect or will it be another disappointment? Could you keep it down in the Kitchen, I'm trying to take measurements here!

Day six: Turned the subs on, letting them warm up as I drink another cup of coffee while shopping Amazon deciding which sound meter calibrator to buy. Does it make a difference? I have the subs set...........

After going through the above, one reads about problems with a sub setup and you'll find yourself shaking your head as once intellectually contaminated, there's no point in trying to help beyond recommending the buying of two subwoofers, a system EQ and a room analyzer to be able to see what's what with what.

Yes, you have been warned. tongue.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/27/13 at 4:52am
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