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Compairing speaker wire with Integrated amp A/B speaker out's

post #1 of 33
1/23/13 at 7:57pm
Thread Starter 
Could I run 2 sets of speaker with to the same speaker and test them this way? I want to find out what all the fuss is about with highend speaker wire.

I was going to use speakers that can be bi-wired speakers but I'm sure some people will tell me that the bi-wire jumper makes a difference so will there be a problem just connecting them to the same post?
Edited by ScaryFatKidGT - 1/23/13 at 9:11pm
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post #2 of 33
1/23/13 at 8:42pm
What are bi-amped speakers? Do you mean active speakers? Bi-wiring is pretty much a waste of time with an avr IMHO, and if you're thinking passive bi-amping also a waste of time/effort.
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post #3 of 33
1/23/13 at 9:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What are bi-amped speakers? Do you mean active speakers? Bi-wiring is pretty much a waste of time with an avr IMHO, and if you're thinking passive bi-amping also a waste of time/effort.
Yeah fixed never mind
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post #4 of 33
1/23/13 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What are bi-amped speakers? Do you mean active speakers? Bi-wiring is pretty much a waste of time with an avr IMHO, and if you're thinking passive bi-amping also a waste of time/effort.
Yeah fixed never mind


Not really. How do you plan to feed the same signal to the speakers for comparison and be able to switch back and forth for a true comparison? What specific equipment are you using?
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post #5 of 33
1/23/13 at 9:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Not really. How do you plan to feed the same signal to the speakers for comparison and be able to switch back and forth for a true comparison? What specific equipment are you using?
Get a Marantz PM6004 hook regular wire to speaker outs "A" and to my speakers and then hook Kimber or Audioquest to Speaker out's "B" and to the same speakers and switch between A and B.
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post #6 of 33
1/23/13 at 9:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Not really. How do you plan to feed the same signal to the speakers for comparison and be able to switch back and forth for a true comparison? What specific equipment are you using?
Get a Marantz PM6004 hook regular wire to speaker outs "A" and to my speakers and then hook Kimber or Audioquest to Speaker out's "B" and to the same speakers and switch between A and B.

How are you sure A and B on the unit are the same? Hope you're sure you can return the Kimber, Audioquest (whatever snakeoil brand you choose)....
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post #7 of 33
1/24/13 at 3:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

How are you sure A and B on the unit are the same? Hope you're sure you can return the Kimber, Audioquest (whatever snakeoil brand you choose)....
Ha I can tell your a skeptic but anyway I plan to have someone plug them in at random for me when I get them and then I will listen not knowing and if I hear something maybe ill switch them and see if I hear the same thing. I think every one has a 30day return on audioquest, really want to try some and see if there flamboyant claims of making anything sound better are true. Kimber on the other hand is very affordable and I will probably get there cheapest cable just for the convenience of pre-terminated cable, but I would like to compare there 3 lowest lines.

People think different amps don't sound different and the most certainly do so id like to find out for my self about cables, with that said I'm not really expecting a difference. I actually have found that the best way for me to hear differences isn't to A/B but to get use to something and then change it like when I got a new receiver and I was like holy hell every thing sounds different, only problem is that I don't really know how long it takes for me to get use to a sound.
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post #8 of 33
1/24/13 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Could I run 2 sets of speaker with to the same speaker and test them this way? I want to find out what all the fuss is about with highend speaker wire.

Speaker cables have 3 important characterstics: resistance, inductance, and capacitance. If you hook two sets of them up, you parallel the capacitance and its not the same as running just one set of wires.

Also, there is no science behind high end speaker wire, so total isolation is required whether it matters or not. But in this case it could.
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I was going to use speakers that can be bi-wired speakers but I'm sure some people will tell me that the bi-wire jumper makes a difference so will there be a problem just connecting them to the same post?

Biwiring has just as much science behind it as high end speaker wire: nothing.

However, one other thing wrong with your proposed speaker wire comparision - its a sighted evaluation and so your personal bias may affect the outcome.
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post #9 of 33
1/24/13 at 6:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Speaker cables have 3 important characterstics: resistance, inductance, and capacitance. If you hook two sets of them up, you parallel the capacitance and its not the same as running just one set of wires.

Also, there is no science behind high end speaker wire, so total isolation is required whether it matters or not. But in this case it could.
Biwiring has just as much science behind it as high end speaker wire: nothing.

However, one other thing wrong with your proposed speaker wire comparison - its a sighted evaluation and so your personal bias may affect the outcome.
OMG guys 1. There are TWO outs on the amp, I wouldn't connect them to the same out at the same time. And 2. I already said that I will have someone else connect them for me with out me knowing the first time, and I'm not going to fall into me just thinking there better because there more expensive and I bought them, if theres not an apparent difference there going back and I'm sticking with Kimber's cheapest that is like $40 for a pair.
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post #10 of 33
1/24/13 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Speaker cables have 3 important characterstics: resistance, inductance, and capacitance. If you hook two sets of them up, you parallel the capacitance and its not the same as running just one set of wires.

Also, there is no science behind high end speaker wire, so total isolation is required whether it matters or not. But in this case it could.
Biwiring has just as much science behind it as high end speaker wire: nothing.

However, one other thing wrong with your proposed speaker wire comparison - its a sighted evaluation and so your personal bias may affect the outcome.
OMG guys 1. There are TWO outs on the amp, I wouldn't connect them to the same out at the same time. And 2. I already said that I will have someone else connect them for me with out me knowing the first time, and I'm not going to fall into me just thinking there better because there more expensive and I bought them, if theres not an apparent difference there going back and I'm sticking with Kimber's cheapest that is like $40 for a pair.

Well good luck....curious, have never looked at Kimber, what length do you get for $40?
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post #11 of 33
1/25/13 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Speaker cables have 3 important characterstics: resistance, inductance, and capacitance. If you hook two sets of them up, you parallel the capacitance and its not the same as running just one set of wires.

Also, there is no science behind high end speaker wire, so total isolation is required whether it matters or not. But in this case it could.
Biwiring has just as much science behind it as high end speaker wire: nothing.

However, one other thing wrong with your proposed speaker wire comparison - its a sighted evaluation and so your personal bias may affect the outcome.



1. There are TWO outs on the amp, I wouldn't connect them to the same out at the same time.

But if I read your test description correctly, both speaker cables are attached to the speaker at the same time.

That's what I'm talking about!

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And 2. I already said that I will have someone else connect them for me with out me knowing the first time,

Hopefully, every time.
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and I'm not going to fall into me just thinking there better because there more expensive and I bought them,

Everybody says that, but what actually happens can be something else.
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if theres not an apparent difference there going back and I'm sticking with Kimber's cheapest that is like $40 for a pair.

Still a gigantic waste of money compared to commodity 12 or 14 gauge stranded wire .
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post #12 of 33
1/25/13 at 5:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well good luck....curious, have never looked at Kimber, what length do you get for $40?
I lied $60, 5' feet $60 or 8' for $78.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

But if I read your test description correctly, both speaker cables are attached to the speaker at the same time.

That's what I'm talking about!
Yeah but the signal only comes one way are you saying the signal would go back threw the wires not being used instead of into the speaker or something?

I have a spool of 16awg right now that was like $20 but the strands are so thin that they break off every time I strip them or connect/re connect them, I wish someone made speaker wire like interconnects (connectors at both ends and wrapped in a nice coating). I looked at bluejeans cable but they only have 10 and 12awg and it looks ugly.
Edited by ScaryFatKidGT - 1/26/13 at 3:43pm
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post #13 of 33
1/26/13 at 8:47am
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I lied $60, 5' feet for 60 or 8' for $78.

What gauge did you pay $12/foot for?
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I looked at bluejeans cable but they only have 10 and 12awg and it looks ugly.

So, you're going for looks over performance?
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Yeah but the signal only comes one way are you saying the signal would go back threw the wires not being used instead of into the speaker or something?

The wires are in parallel, aren't they?
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I have a spool of 16awg right now that was like $20 but the strands are so thin that they break off every time I strip them or connect/re connect them,

Learn to use wire strippers.
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I wish someone made speaker wire like interconnects (connectors at both ends and wrapped in a nice coating).

not sure what you're looking at here.
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post #14 of 33
1/26/13 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well good luck....curious, have never looked at Kimber, what length do you get for $40?
I lied $60, 5' feet for 60 or 8' for $78.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

But if I read your test description correctly, both speaker cables are attached to the speaker at the same time.

That's what I'm talking about!
Yeah but the signal only comes one way

That is a false belief.

Electrical currents are known to flow in whatever direction they need to flow in to complete a circuit. The cable that is connected at just the speaker end has a well-known electrical characteristic known as the capacitance between the two wires. The capacitance completes enough of a circuit that current flows through the wire from the speaker end even though the amplifier of AVR end is connected to an open switch.

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are you saying the signal would go back threw the wires not being used instead of into the speaker or something?

Yes.
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I have a spool of 16awg right now that was like $20 but the strands are so thin that they break off every time I strip them or connect/re connect them,

It must be very strange wire or you must be very clumsy with tools. I've made many speaker cables with 16 gauge stranded wire without any difficulty.
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I wish someone made speaker wire like interconnects (connectors at both ends and wrapped in a nice coating).

Wish no longer - many people make speaker cables with connectors at both ends. Some of it is even pretty nice looking but is not excessively costly.
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I looked at bluejeans cable but they only have 10 and 12awg and it looks ugly.

You seem to have missed their listing of Canare 14 gauge.

The following is a picture of BJ speaker cable from their web site.



I agree, its pretty ugly.

This looks prettier to me:

http://sewelldirect.com/Silverback-Speaker-Wire-by-Sewell-Enhanced-Loud-Oxygen-Free-Pure-Copper-259-Strand-Count-6-ft-Terminated.asp



6 feet long and $6.95
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post #15 of 33
1/26/13 at 3:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

What gauge did you pay $12/foot for?
So, you're going for looks over performance?
The wires are in parallel, aren't they?
Learn to use wire strippers.
not sure what you're looking at here.
I think that regular lamp cord looks better than the gray industrial in wall coating on BJ speaker wire. I have some of it for my subs in my car but I don't want it running in my room.

If I strip them with the 16awg slot it cuts copper every time so I have been using the 18awg slot, going around slowly never clamping all the way down and then just pulling a little harder to get the insulation off but if I take them out and have to re twist the ends copper usually comes off, and I want bananas cuz the back of my AVR is a mess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That is a false belief.

Electrical currents are known to flow in whatever direction they need to flow in to complete a circuit. The cable that is connected at just the speaker end has a well-known electrical characteristic known as the capacitance between the two wires. The capacitance completes enough of a circuit that current flows through the wire from the speaker end even though the amplifier of AVR end is connected to an open switch.
Yes.
It must be very strange wire or you must be very clumsy with tools. I've made many speaker cables with 16 gauge stranded wire without any difficulty.
Wish no longer - many people make speaker cables with connectors at both ends. Some of it is even pretty nice looking but is not excessively costly.
You seem to have missed their listing of Canare 14 gauge.

The following is a picture of BJ speaker cable from their web site.



I agree, its pretty ugly.

This looks prettier to me:

http://sewelldirect.com/Silverback-Speaker-Wire-by-Sewell-Enhanced-Loud-Oxygen-Free-Pure-Copper-259-Strand-Count-6-ft-Terminated.asp



6 feet long and $6.95
I realize what I said wasn't true but I couldn't think of a better way to say it, I didn't realize it would flow back and make a circuit with the unused slot?

The insulation does seem very tight around the wire, there is even little marks from the wire in it like it was dipped in liquid plastic that cooled on it or something, idk how they coat speaker wire.

I agree hi-end speaker wire is fishy I mean how does it make a difference when the jumpers from the binding posts to the voice coil are "regular wire"

but if it doesn't make a difference why do companies pay for and advertise 99.9999 ofc copper in there head phone cables and stuff? If it didn't sound any different you think they wouldn't bother and save money on under cutting competitors. And just about every review site says they sound better, are they payed off to say this with more than just the samples? and some places even go so far as to describe the differences in sound that each cable makes from a group of 5 or more.... are they just crazy? It is my personal belief that our ears are way more sensitive than a FR graph, at least at the resolution most people show covering 20-20kh, think of how many different voices we instantly recognize even if we are on a phone or cell phone or something.

I didn't really want to get into this, I'm just looking for a way to test them my self without having to swap them out.
Edited by ScaryFatKidGT - 1/26/13 at 4:00pm
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post #16 of 33
1/26/13 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Well good luck....curious, have never looked at Kimber, what length do you get for $40?
I lied $60, 5' feet $60 or 8' for $78.


I have a spool of 16awg right now that was like $20 but the strands are so thin that they break off every time I strip them or connect/re connect them, I wish someone made speaker wire like interconnects (connectors at both ends and wrapped in a nice coating). I looked at bluejeans cable but they only have 10 and 12awg and it looks ugly.

That Kimber is still way expensive. I use a spool of 14g (250 ft at a time for $40 last time) and make whatever I need with a supply of those same Sewell banana connectors. Just saw this http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Link-SW12G250Z-Gauge-Speaker/dp/B000OQ6RXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359244655&sr=8-1&keywords=cable+wire+14g+250ft which is pretty nice looking if you like blue. For the price of a reel and a bunch of connectors you do a bit better....

Do you have a proper wire stripping tool?
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post #17 of 33
1/26/13 at 6:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

That Kimber is still way expensive. I use a spool of 14g (250 ft at a time for $40 last time) and make whatever I need with a supply of those same Sewell banana connectors. Just saw this http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Link-SW12G250Z-Gauge-Speaker/dp/B000OQ6RXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359244655&sr=8-1&keywords=cable+wire+14g+250ft which is pretty nice looking if you like blue. For the price of a reel and a bunch of connectors you do a bit better....

Do you have a proper wire stripping tool?
Actually the spool I got was probably only like $10 RCA, I wish they mad stuff with larger strands or even solid core but most companies advertise high stand count as better or charge a fortune. Yeah I have a wire stripper
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post #18 of 33
1/26/13 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Actually the spool I got was probably only like $10 RCA, I wish they mad stuff with larger strands or even solid core but most companies advertise high stand count as better or charge a fortune. Yeah I have a wire stripper[/quote]

Why do you want larger strands? Or solid core?
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post #19 of 33
1/27/13 at 12:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Why do you want larger strands? Or solid core?
So they don't break/fall off/easier to stick in stuff with out twisting first, the wire is plenty flexible, solid would be a little different but yeah.
Edited by ScaryFatKidGT - 1/27/13 at 3:42am
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post #20 of 33
1/27/13 at 4:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post


But if it doesn't make a difference why do companies pay for and advertise 99.9999 ofc copper in there head phone cables and stuff?

I don't think you understand how business works. The name of the game is to get the customers to pay for the 9.9999 ofc copper wire, and with a healthy markup. Companies invest in expensive components with the idea of selling them at a steep markup and getting the customers to pay for the whole thing, overhead, profits, etc.
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If it didn't sound any different you think they wouldn't bother and save money on under cutting competitors.

I showed you an example of a company that was doing exactly that. What you don't know is the actual volumes of product sold at any particular price. I suspect that some hyper-expensive cables may never ever sell even one unit at their asking price.

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And just about every review site says they sound better, are they payed off to say this with more than just the samples?

It is all about the magic of sighted evaluations and salesmanship.
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and some places even go so far as to describe the differences in sound that each cable makes from a group of 5 or more.... are they just crazy?


They aren't delusional, they are illusional.
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It is my personal belief that our ears are way more sensitive than a FR graph

I can make reliable measurements of frequency response that are sensitive to changes on the order of a thousandth of a dB. That is at least 200 times larger than anybody can hear.
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, at least at the resolution most people show covering 20-20kh, think of how many different voices we instantly recognize even if we are on a phone or cell phone or something.

I can prove to you that you can identify people's voices instantly even if there are frequency response variations of >10 dB in the audible range. Compared to the variations that are easy to measure, that is huge! Our ears are designed to recognize people's voices in the face of a lot of interference. That is required for survival. People recognize the voice of their favorite radio personalities even over crappy AM radios with the speakers from #$!!.
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I didn't really want to get into this, I'm just looking for a way to test them my self without having to swap them out.

Swapping them out takes so much time that you won't be able to reliably hear differences that would be audible in a test that was quick switched.
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post #21 of 33
1/27/13 at 7:54am
Quote:
It is my personal belief that our ears are way more sensitive than a FR graph

Your personal beliefs and actual science don't agree
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post #22 of 33
1/27/13 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Why do you want larger strands? Or solid core?
So they don't break/fall off/easier to stick in stuff with out twisting first, the wire is plenty flexible, solid would be a little different but yeah.[/quote

Twisiting is like hard work or something?

You're grasping at straws with believing all the marketing hype about differences in wire. How would you even know some manufacturer (or reseller) actually purchased and used either C11000, C10200 or C10100 grades of copper wire, let alone is actually selling them to you?
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post #23 of 33
1/27/13 at 1:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I don't think you understand how business works. The name of the game is to get the customers to pay for the 9.9999 ofc copper wire, and with a healthy markup. Companies invest in expensive components with the idea of selling them at a steep markup and getting the customers to pay for the whole thing, overhead, profits, etc.
I mean stock companies like Denon, hi-fiman, audez, sennheiser

I just wanted to see for my self instead of blindly doubting every thing but what ever im done with this, and I have never seen a FR graph that precise, I'm not saying they don't exist just that people obviously don't use them which defeats the point. Duh headphones that measure the same on a 20-20k 600x600 pixel graph are going to sound different.
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post #24 of 33
1/27/13 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

...I agree hi-end speaker wire is fishy I mean how does it make a difference when the jumpers from the binding posts to the voice coil are "regular wire"
Well, you could use your fancy wire to jumper and still wouldn't make a difference;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

but if it doesn't make a difference why do companies pay for and advertise 99.9999 ofc copper in there head phone cables and stuff?
Simple. Marketing to gullible customers for higher profits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

If it didn't sound any different you think they wouldn't bother and save money on under cutting competitors.

If??? No evidence it does, just empty claims based on flawed listening protocols. No need to save $$$ as gullible customers are not in short supply;)biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

And just about every review site says they sound better, are they payed off to say this with more than just the samples?
Of course they do. I can say that without listening.wink.gif You should ask how did they conduct those listening sessions? And, ask for the reviewer's certificate of knowing how to conduct the testing, number of correct guesses, etc. Reviewers do get paid; they don't do it for free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

and some places even go so far as to describe the differences in sound that each cable makes from a group of 5 or more.... are they just crazy?
Crazy? I could do it similarly without listening. So what if their talent is writing instead of proper protocol. The gullible public buys it and everybody is happy and get paid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

No. It is my personal belief that our ears are way more sensitive than a FR graph, at least at the resolution most people show covering 20-20kh,
You are allowed to believe in anything you like and prefer to. That doesn't mean it is true, correct, or real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

think of how many different voices we instantly recognize even if we are on a phone or cell phone or something.
Boy, you are confusing things here, your memory of peoples voices to the ability to differentiate small differences. I bet you remember different songs just from a few notes, right? Does that mean you know all the songs out there from a few notes? Of course not, only the ones you have firmly embedded in your memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

I didn't really want to get into this, I'm just looking for a way to test them my self without having to swap them out.

Well, you certainly got into this;) If you want to know the truth of the matter, you need to properly compare cables in the first place to have any credible meaning. Here is the place to learn, or just disregard everything, do it your way and imagine whatever you want to.
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post #25 of 33
1/27/13 at 8:44pm
Thread Starter 
Haven't you guys ever heard speakers/headphones that measured different and sounded similar or measured really close and sound way different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Boy, you are confusing things here, your memory of peoples voices to the ability to differentiate small differences. I bet you remember different songs just from a few notes, right? Does that mean you know all the songs out there from a few notes? Of course not, only the ones you have firmly embedded in your memory.
I mean like twins or 2 girls that have similar voices, I bet they would look pretty close on a FR graph but you still know exactly whos who even through a crappy phone speaker.

http://www.headfonia.com/sennheiser-hd-cables-comparison/
http://www.headfonia.com/three-way-hfi-780-shootout/
http://www.headfonia.com/whiplash-audios-twag/

So thats all just a child's fiction book written? I don't mean to be an ass but they go in to such specific detail its hard to think they just made it up. Theres other sites too, this one just happens to be very in depth.

I've just heard so much stuff; all AV receivers sound the same, break in doesn't exists, all solid state amps sound the same, all DAC's sound the same and I have found all of that to be false. Now I know that your going to say that those have scientific backing were speaker wire doesn't but people still believe them. Idk why someone doesn't round up a bunch of speaker cable and test them on the highest sensitivity instruments and post graphs, would be interesting, they have done it for HDMI.

So basically this thread is a giant waist of time and I should just use my used guitar strings for speaker cable?
Edited by ScaryFatKidGT - 1/28/13 at 2:02am
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post #26 of 33
1/28/13 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Haven't you guys ever heard speakers/headphones that measured different and sounded similar or measured really close and sound way different?
I mean like twins or 2 girls that have similar voices, I bet they would look pretty close on a FR graph but you still know exactly whos who even through a crappy phone speaker.

http://www.headfonia.com/sennheiser-hd-cables-comparison/
http://www.headfonia.com/three-way-hfi-780-shootout/
http://www.headfonia.com/whiplash-audios-twag/

So thats all just a child's fiction book written? I don't mean to be an ass but they go in to such specific detail its hard to think they just made it up. Theres other sites too, this one just happens to be very in depth.

I've just heard so much stuff; all AV receivers sound the same, break in doesn't exists, all solid state amps sound the same, all DAC's sound the same and I have found all of that to be false. Now I know that your going to say that those have scientific backing were speaker wire doesn't but people still believe them. Idk why someone doesn't round up a bunch of speaker cable and test them on the highest sensitivity instruments and post graphs, would be interesting, they have done it for HDMI.

So basically this thread is a giant waist of time and I should just use my used guitar strings for speaker cable?

The tests you describe have been done many times. The differences in the cables, if any, are so far below the threshold of human hearing as to be completely inconsequential. While you could use guitar strings as cables, I'd go for something with an insulated jacket from MonoPrice or BlueJeans.

Not even going to bother with your assertions that solid state amps and DACS sound different.
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post #27 of 33
1/28/13 at 4:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Haven't you guys ever heard speakers/headphones that measured different and sounded similar or measured really close and sound way different?

What I know is that the sound at the eardrum that comes from a pair of headphones is strongly dependent on the shape and configuration of the outer and inner ear. Therefore, the identical same headphones strongly tend to deliver audibly different acoustic signals to the tympanic membrane and cochlea of different people's ears. Then we get into what the brain does, and the perceptual differences are only magnified.

What I now is that the sound of speakers is strongly dependent on the room that they are in and the location and orientation of the listener. Therefore, the identical same speakers strongly tend to deliver audibly different acoustic signals to the tympanic membrane and cochlea of different people's ears. Then we get into what the brain does, and the perceptual differences are only magnified.

So of course I have heard speakers/headphones that measured different and sounded similar or measured really close and sound way different. Thing is, the reasons why have nothing to do with technical failings or limitations of the measurements. They have to do with how we use the gear.

This has nothing, nada, zero to do with perceived differences among electronic components. I've done my homework and I know from personal experience involving dozens if not 100s of tests that a given music player, AVR or amp will measure the essentially same in your listening room as mine, essentially the same on my test bench as John Atkinsons, etc. Yes, the numbers might be a little different in the second decimal place of the actual numbers, but that means nothing as far as SQ goes.

I also know that all good DACs and amplifiers are impossible for anybody to reliably discern in a listening test. Again, I seen way to many self-professed golden ears humbled by a good listening test. That this is true is so well known that none of the big names in the high end audio industry will ever sit for a good unbiased listening test because they know what the outcome will be and it will bust their egos.

I mean seriously, do you ever expect Harley or Atkinson or Fremer to get caught in a well-designed listening test in public again in their lives? LOL!
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post #28 of 33
1/28/13 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

.... Now I know that your going to say that those have scientific backing were speaker wire doesn't but people still believe them. Idk why someone doesn't round up a bunch of speaker cable and test them on the highest sensitivity instruments and post graphs, would be interesting, they have done it for HDMI.

So basically this thread is a giant waist of time and I should just use my used guitar strings for speaker cable?
Well, it is wasted if no one learned anything from it, right? Better insulate your guitar wires;)

As to speaker wires and measurements, of course you can measure differences even if you cut the same wire shorter by a foot. So what. Are you implying it has to or must sound different? Based on what evidence???
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post #29 of 33
1/29/13 at 12:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

The tests you describe have been done many times. The differences in the cables, if any, are so far below the threshold of human hearing as to be completely inconsequential. While you could use guitar strings as cables, I'd go for something with an insulated jacket from MonoPrice or BlueJeans.

Not even going to bother with your assertions that solid state amps and DACS sound different.
Do you have links?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What I know is that the sound at the eardrum that comes from a pair of headphones is strongly dependent on the shape and configuration of the outer and inner ear. Therefore, the identical same headphones strongly tend to deliver audibly different acoustic signals to the tympanic membrane and cochlea of different people's ears. Then we get into what the brain does, and the perceptual differences are only magnified.

What I now is that the sound of speakers is strongly dependent on the room that they are in and the location and orientation of the listener. Therefore, the identical same speakers strongly tend to deliver audibly different acoustic signals to the tympanic membrane and cochlea of different people's ears. Then we get into what the brain does, and the perceptual differences are only magnified.

So of course I have heard speakers/headphones that measured different and sounded similar or measured really close and sound way different. Thing is, the reasons why have nothing to do with technical failings or limitations of the measurements. They have to do with how we use the gear.

This has nothing, nada, zero to do with perceived differences among electronic components. I've done my homework and I know from personal experience involving dozens if not 100s of tests that a given music player, AVR or amp will measure the essentially same in your listening room as mine, essentially the same on my test bench as John Atkinsons, etc. Yes, the numbers might be a little different in the second decimal place of the actual numbers, but that means nothing as far as SQ goes.

I also know that all good DACs and amplifiers are impossible for anybody to reliably discern in a listening test. Again, I seen way to many self-professed golden ears humbled by a good listening test. That this is true is so well known that none of the big names in the high end audio industry will ever sit for a good unbiased listening test because they know what the outcome will be and it will bust their egos.

I mean seriously, do you ever expect Harley or Atkinson or Fremer to get caught in a well-designed listening test in public again in their lives? LOL!
<<

Are you implying that the "testers" are putting there headphones on different every time?
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post #30 of 33
1/29/13 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

The tests you describe have been done many times. The differences in the cables, if any, are so far below the threshold of human hearing as to be completely inconsequential. While you could use guitar strings as cables, I'd go for something with an insulated jacket from MonoPrice or BlueJeans.

Not even going to bother with your assertions that solid state amps and DACS sound different.

Do you have links?[/quoet]

I'll provide them if and when when you provide links to scientifically-performed tests that disagree with what I said. You're changing the rules against me - you get to say anything you want without any links or support, and now I have to provide links to be credible to you. If you think you are that much better than me, then there is no purpose for me to bother replying! :-(
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What I know is that the sound at the eardrum that comes from a pair of headphones is strongly dependent on the shape and configuration of the outer and inner ear. Therefore, the identical same headphones strongly tend to deliver audibly different acoustic signals to the tympanic membrane and cochlea of different people's ears. Then we get into what the brain does, and the perceptual differences are only magnified.

What I now is that the sound of speakers is strongly dependent on the room that they are in and the location and orientation of the listener. Therefore, the identical same speakers strongly tend to deliver audibly different acoustic signals to the tympanic membrane and cochlea of different people's ears. Then we get into what the brain does, and the perceptual differences are only magnified.

So of course I have heard speakers/headphones that measured different and sounded similar or measured really close and sound way different. Thing is, the reasons why have nothing to do with technical failings or limitations of the measurements. They have to do with how we use the gear.

This has nothing, nada, zero to do with perceived differences among electronic components. I've done my homework and I know from personal experience involving dozens if not 100s of tests that a given music player, AVR or amp will measure the essentially same in your listening room as mine, essentially the same on my test bench as John Atkinsons, etc. Yes, the numbers might be a little different in the second decimal place of the actual numbers, but that means nothing as far as SQ goes.

I also know that all good DACs and amplifiers are impossible for anybody to reliably discern in a listening test. Again, I seen way to many self-professed golden ears humbled by a good listening test. That this is true is so well known that none of the big names in the high end audio industry will ever sit for a good unbiased listening test because they know what the outcome will be and it will bust their egos.

I mean seriously, do you ever expect Harley or Atkinson or Fremer to get caught in a well-designed listening test in public again in their lives? LOL!
<<

Are you implying that the "testers" are putting there headphones on different every time?

Since you brought the point up, do you seriously think that people put their headphones on exactly the same every time they listen? Of course not! That is what is required for absolutely consistent sound from headphones. Otherwise the drivers don't line up the same with the pinnae and the ear canal. Otherwise the pads don't seal against the head with equal effectiveness. Do people slip their heads into clamps in their listening room so that they are in the same place and have the identical orientation? Of course not!

One of the advantages of quick-switched listening tests is that they happen rapidly enough that it is possible that the listener's location and orientation has not changed.
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