Unhappy with Intel HD4000. ATI Card suggestions? - Page 2

Hey Renethx, doesn't this depend on the motherboard? I'm pretty sure the P67's didn't allow you to use quicksync if you had a discrete card installed.

Being able to use Intel HD Graphics (you can't with P67 chipset) is a prerequisite to being able to use Intel Quick Sync video decoder with AMD/NVIDIA discrete cards, of course. (The main reason to use IVB decoder is 4K video decoding.)

Ah, of course. Now I remember. Thanks!

This is an interesting and useful thread! Jinc is such a video improvement it is the HTPC enthusiast heroin and I am an addict.

My problems with smooth video or cadence only occurs with DVDs and DVD .iso, not with Blu-ray .mkv. I am using an I5 HD 4000 CPU on an Asus P8 Z77-V Pro motherboard. I also have an Asus Nvidia GT440 with 1GB GDDR5. My desktop monitor and plasma TV are plugged into the GT 440 using CUVID and I use Lucid Virtu MVP to allow the GT 440 to utilize the I5 CPU and the HD 4000 graphics.

So, I have the CPU and GPU power to drive madVR jinc 3 or 4 taps. It seems that sometimes DVD and DVD isos are not getting enough processing power and perhaps I need to run only the plasma display or I need to do something else to reduce the drain on the 8GB of 2400 ram or the CPU or GPU.

How do I determine where the video smoothness/cadence choking issue is coming from?

What do you mean by that? Rendering time is longer than 1/23.976fps = 41.7ms?

With GT 440 GDDR5, rendering time is ~36 ms to chroma upsample / image upscale SD to full HD with Jinc3+AR / Jinc3+AR, that is (barely) fast enough for smooth playback. This is about films. If the SD source is a video, GT 440 is out of question (for such a source, the rendering time must be well below 1/59.94fps = 16.7 ms, that is roughly 2.5 times shorter than for a film, in other words, GPU needs to be 2.5 times more powerful).

CUVID does either deinterlacing or IVTC before sending the video stream to madVR, but sometimes it does not select the correct mode. So I have been avoiding it.

I am curious about Lucid Virtu MVP. Does this shorten the rendering time?
Edited by renethx - 2/2/13 at 9:22am

Renethx,
Thanks for your response and questions.

The GT440 alone could not use jinc acceptably.

Please tell me how to find the rendering time.

Lucidlogix is software that was bundled with the Asus motherboard. It allows the I5 HD4000 to assist the GT440: http://www.lucidlogix.com/product-virtu-mvp.shtml

Virtu MVP has 3 major components:
1. GPU Virtualization - Enabling applications to use best of both worlds between discrete GPU and integrated one, with no limitation where your display is plugged in.
Learn more >>
2. Virtual Vsync - A cool technology that allows you to play with your standard in-game vsync turned on for smooth tear-free game play, but without the 60 FPS cap. Yes, you can.
Learn more >>
3. HyperFormance - A technology designed to further boost you game responsiveness by removing redundant rendering tasks in the pipeline resulting by higher response performance.
Learn more >>

I don't know anything about the smooth video project, but this may be along the same lines. It seems to be designed for gaming but it clearly boosts the capability of the GT440. I like the picture better than using the HD4000 graphics alone and I get the advantages of Nvidia graphics over Intel graphics.

Unfortunately, I may be doing something no one else is doing and I lack the technical capability to fully understand what is going on. I guess I am trying to share this with you, Madshi and Nevcairier in the hope of figuring it out.

I installed a Radeon Sapphire fanless HD 5450 PCIe card but I don't know how to force the exact timings for my odd custom resolution (ATI registry key unknown) so I switched back to Intel onboard graphics in the BIOS. Hope it's okay to leave the ATI PCIe card, drivers, and CCC installed even though not used.

@Postmoderndesign

Virtu MVP has no effect on video playback. I tried Virtu MVP in my system (Core i3-3225, Z77, GT 440) and added MPC-HC in the application list. “HyperFormance” and “Virtual Vsync” are irrelevant to video playback, so I disabled them.



If I enabled them, I got the following madVR error message:



I-mode

In this mode, the display must be connected to iGPU. The average rendering time at SD film playback:

Virtu MVP ON: 43 ms
Virtu MVP OFF: 43 ms

So in either case madVR uses only iGPU to execute its algorithms.

D-mode

In this mode, the display must be connected to dGPU. The average rendering time at SD film playback:

Virtu MVP ON: 36 ms
Virtu MVP OFF: 36 ms

So in either case madVR uses only dGPU to execute its algorithms.
Edited by renethx - 2/2/13 at 9:34pm

Did you try this? It worked for me.

Anyway HD 5450 is pretty poor in madVR, Intel HD Graphics (even Celeron G5xx) is much better in that at least it supports Bicubic (or a similar) with no AR in chroma upsampling and Lanczos with AR if you select DXVA2 image upscaling in madVR.
Edited by renethx - 2/2/13 at 9:48pm

Just for completeness sake, if you let madVR perform image upscaling in DXVA2, it'll do chroma upscaling in DXVA2 as well in the same step.
It just gets weird if you play content which needs no image upscaling, then it does the chroma with the algorithm you configured.

Maybe thats what you meant, considering that Intels DXVA algorithm is based on Lanczos with ringing reduction, so its not as bad as NVIDIA or AMD DXVA scaling.

Yes, I mean that.

With no image scaling (usually full HD contents in a full HD display), various chroma upsampling algorithms are very hard to discern anyway (unless you run a very special test pattern such as Chroma Zone Plate, that is useless according to madshi).

In testing last night I found that I was having a problem with dropped frames only when playing a DVD or DVD iso using jinc for image upscaling. I could use anything else for image upscaling and I could use jinc for chroma upscaling. Jinc with 3 or 4 taps for image upscaling worked fine for blu ray discs or .mkv.

If you dig further into the literature on lucid VirtuMVP you will find that it only works when the display is plugged into the graphics expansion board and does not work when plugged into the motherboard. They never got that mode working, I cannot remember whether that call it "i" or "d". Also, I am using an i5-3570K LGA 1155 HD 4000 and it clearly allows jinc to work when the display is plugged ino GT440, therefore I think I can conclude that VirtuMVP enhances video playback with MPC-HC.

Now my memory is that I was able to playback DVD .iso previously and I am wondering if upgrading madVR to the current version that does not allow jinc to be run with no taps caused the smoothness/dropout problems. I will need to revert to a previous version of MadVR and do some testing.

Also, my subjective opinion is that MPC-HC with madVR gives DVDs a sharper and more realistic image than 7MC media player or powerDVD even without jinc image upscaling.

Connect the display to GT 440. Turn on and off Virtu MVP and compare the average rendering time when you play video under madVR (press Ctrl+J to see it). There won't be any difference...

I-mode vs d-mode. Either mode works with MPC-HC+madVR unless you turn on HyperFormance and Virtual Vsync (they matter only with gaming anyway). But in either mode, madVR executes its algorithms only on the GPU to which the display is connected.
Edited by renethx - 2/3/13 at 10:36am

GTX 650 Ti is a faster gaming card than HD 7770, so I thought it was good enough for 1440x1080i60, but that was wrong. The average rendering time is ~14.5 ms with several to many dropped frames whatever decoder I select (avcodec, CUVID, QuickSync, DXVA2 copy-back, DXVA2 native). When the CUDA cores were overclocked to 1050MHz (from the default 925MHz), the average rendering time went down to ~12.5 ms with no dropped frame, that is comparable with HD 7770.
Edited by renethx - 2/3/13 at 9:30pm

Average rendering time jinc4 with VirtuMVP on 25.67ms, 26.07ms off for blu ray mkv 1080p60 displayed on a 58" Panasonic plasma.

I think you are correct and I have been wrong.

I will try plugging the display into the motherboard and using intel rather than CUVID.

Intel HD Graphics 4000 is too slow under Jinc3+AR/Jinc3+AR, even for films. The average rendering time is ~43 ms for SD film, ~48 ms for full HD film, too long for smooth playback.

I tried everything for two days an no success. With the 5850 everything works the way it's supposed to.
Maybe time to buy even a better card.

What I am getting from blu ray with jinc 3 + AR and jinc 4+ AR looks like smooth playback to me with few dropped frames. Sound and video are in sync. Nothing looks jumpy or jerky. I've been watching movies for more than 60 years and I now what they look like.

Renethx,

I will get a ASUS HD7770-1GD5 Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express or Sapphire Vapor-X HD7770 if you think I will get my $134 worth of improvement. I will even put up with catalyst.
Edited by Postmoderndesign - 2/3/13 at 1:41pm

So much good info in this thread. Think I might sticky it. I've been playing with XBMC for the simplicity, but damnit the quality from madVR and the higher end scaling options always taunts me.

Will you try to play a 2-min clip of Iron Man (2008; ripped from BD without encoding)? With Intel HD Graphics 4000 (i3-3225) + Jinc3 AR / Jinc3 AR (actually image upscaling is irrelevant here in a 1080p display), I get ~45ms average rendering time, with many dropped frames.
Edited by renethx - 2/11/13 at 10:04am

The main criterion in choosing a graphics card is the quietness at full load (yes, GPU often runs at near full load with Jinc+AR). TechPowerUp has nice reviews on tons of graphics cards that includes fan noise test. The noise at idle and load:

- Sapphire HD 7770 Vapor-X 1 GB: 24dbA, 25dbA ("Noise levels in idle and load are amazing. No matter if it's fully loaded or just sitting at the desktop the card is so quiet that you will be hard pressed to identify any noise coming from it.")
- ASUS Radeon HD 7770 DirectCU 1 GB: 25dbA, 26dbA
- HIS Radeon HD 7770 iCooler 1 GB: 25dbA, 27dbA
- XFX HD 7770 Black Edition Super Overclock 1 GB: 25dbA, 27dbA
- Gigabyte HD 7770 OC 1 GB: 29dBA, 33dbA
- MSI Radeon HD 7770 OC 1 GB: 27dbA, 38dbA
- PowerColor Radeon HD 7770 1 GB: 32dbA, 35dbA

That's why I recommend Sapphire Vapor-X. ASUS DirectCU comes next, then HIS iCooler and XFX BE. You'd better avoid GIGABYTE, MSI and PowerColor.
Edited by renethx - 2/4/13 at 6:47am

I ordered the Sapphire Vapor-X HD7770 from Newegg after reading your recommendation in an earlier post. I feel even better knowing the reason behind the recommendation. I think the final cost was around $115 after rebate so it looks like a pretty good deal. Most of my previous HTPC builds have been based on both your recommended components and Assassin's builds and I've always been extremely satisfied with the results. You and Assassin are probably the best resources we have for putting together a topnotch HTPC without the headaches many suffer from incompatible mixes of hardware. My hat's off to both of you for taking the time to contribute to these forums and provide guidance for the rest of us.

Oh yeah, Go Ravens!

I ordered a SAPPHIRE Vapor-X 100358VXL Radeon HD 7770 and will see if it resolves my problems with DVD MPC-HC playback with jinc3+AR image upscaling.

Well, after reading this great thread, I ordered a SAPPHIRE Vapor-X 100358VXL Radeon HD 7770 too.
Plugged it in yesterday and am disappointed in the way it screwed up my 3D experience.

I had perfect playback with my 5770 card. - Not so with the 7770
I did not need an EDID overide for my 5770 card. - Need an EDID overide to make the 7770 work in 3D
In 2D the 7770 looks better or has better quality but not by much.

The 7770 3D playback is all screwed up on my end...the depth is f'd up bigtime. I cannot for the life of me understand what's wrong!
I uninstalled and reinstalled the driver (video) and no change.

I'm back to the 5770 and all is back to normal.

Maybe my card is defective?

HD 5770 is powerful enough to play back all kinds of video files with Jinc3+AR/Jinc3+AR. The PQ is exactly identical whatever graphics card you use (unless the graphics driver adds other post processing).

I am not sure what's wrong with HD 7770 at 3D playback.

The problem with DVD playback is resolved and DVDs will play smoothly with Jinc 4taps +AR. The supplied SAPPHIRE Vapor-X 100358VXL Radeon HD 7770 software disc proved better than the more recent AMD driver so I ended up installing, uninstalling and reinstalling to get the HDMI audio driver right. I just got the board installed and I am still doing some testing.

After one day of testing and reinstallation of Lucid MVP which reduced artifacts and improved sharpness imo I am very pleased with the Sapphire Vapor-X Radeon HD 7770. The Lucid software may require the ivy bridge Asus P8 Z77-V Pro motherboard and fast RAM. Catalyst also seemed to end a number of long standing problems of losing the media center video driver. DVDs have never looked better. I have been unfair to AMD. My thanks to Renethx and everyone else who recommended the 7770.