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need advice on a 5.1 set up with a 2500 budget - Page 3

post #61 of 107
1/27/13 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Axiom is a relatively poor value in subwoofer performance, unless their subs have improved substantially since last I heard. They will not allow their subs to be measured in reviews, that should scare you. On the occasions they have been measured, they did poorly with respect to other manufacture direct brands.




Ok whatever did you read the link comments from owners of both?


Much more articulate and musical with music,
Matters to me.
Oh and very smooth no distortion.
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post #62 of 107
1/27/13 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

"Bad?" I've never heard it described as such by anyone else. For his room, this is all a moot point. The PB12 will have MORE than enough output for his space throughout the frequency range he will need. Audioholics certified it as good for rooms from 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet--and that's a single sub, not two of them. Given the OP's room is 12x14 room, that's like arguing that one car's 170 mph top end is just not good enough compare to another's 180 mph top end, when the driver is NEVER going to take it over 75 mph. LOL

I would say its bad. Look at how it's mid bass compares with every other sub on data-bass.com, it is getting bested by even entry level subs. At 60 hz, a pretty crucial frequency, it has the weakest performance of all measured subwoofers. At 50 hz, it is nearly the worst, only outdoing its sealed counterpart and a goofy B&W mini sub. These are the frequencies which matter most. Like I said, it has good 20 hz output, but since the vast majority of bass material lay from 40 and up, that is not much of a consolation. Sure a PB12 NSD would be good for such a small room, but if you are going to spend nearly $800 on a subwoofer, why not get a good one? Also, I think you are underestimating just how easily its limiter can be hit.
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post #63 of 107
1/27/13 at 1:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The PB12 NSDs have more amplifier power, but that doesn't translate into a more powerful sub. They have pretty good deep bass output and low distortion measurements, but their mid bass output is pretty bad with respect to other subs in their price class. The VTF3, Power Sound Audio XV15, and Outlaw Audio LFM EX all cost about the same but will stomp on it in output. Check out this comparison http://www.data-bass.com/systems if you want to see how it fares against other subs at various frequencies. If you can spend 1600 on a pair of subs, a couple of XV15s will give you monstrous mid bass as well as decent deep bass.



VTF-3 MK4 DualDrive Package thats 1500 so only 50 bucks more

what anyone else think
a pair of svs pb12-nsd for 1450
or a pair of hsu VTF-3 MK4 for 1500 ??

i think it going to be wither of them and thats about as much as i can spend
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post #64 of 107
1/27/13 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vm8444 View Post

Oh and very smooth no distortion.

I haven't read comments from owners who have had both. I could see how some people might prefer the Axiom because the harmonic distortion it has is 2nd and 3rd order, which is sometimes described as adding warmth. As for the no distortion claim, well...

not so much.

But I suppose I should add that those distortion levels don't get bad until you hit 100 dB
Edited by shadyJ - 1/27/13 at 1:52pm
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post #65 of 107
1/27/13 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would say its bad. Look at how it's mid bass compares with every other sub on data-bass.com, it is getting bested by even entry level subs. At 60 hz, a pretty crucial frequency, it has the weakest performance of all measured subwoofers. At 50 hz, it is nearly the worst, only outdoing its sealed counterpart and a goofy B&W mini sub. These are the frequencies which matter most. Like I said, it has good 20 hz output, but since the vast majority of bass material lay from 40 and up, that is not much of a consolation. Sure a PB12 NSD would be good for such a small room, but if you are going to spend nearly $800 on a subwoofer, why not get a good one? Also, I think you are underestimating just how easily its limiter can be hit.

I think your opinions are very much shaped by a heavy bias toward HSU and a determination to make the VTF-3 the best sub in its class because you have owned one, even though there are no measurements for it in the data-bass.com table to compare with these other subs. And even though we also know that the VTF-15H underperformed HSUs specs when it was tested by Audioholics--possible the VTF-3 could too. And even though the creator of data-bass.com and all those measurements, Josh Ricci, overwhelming recommends the SVS PB12-NSD in his full review and gives it a 4 1/2 star value (does Audioholics ever five for subs for that?) and recommends it for 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet of room (which is not small): http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-nsd/pb12-nsd-introduction.

To me, this is like arguing which is better, the Mustang GT or the Chevy Camaro. In any given year, one may have an edge over the other, and there could easily be a full scale battle over arguing which is the best.. But when it all comes down to it (and I am a Mustang fan), both are equivalent in class, much like the SVS PB12-NSD and the HSU VTF-3 MK4.
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post #66 of 107
1/27/13 at 2:44pm
I have an EP400 in a tube amp music-only sat/sub system that replaced a vintage Velodyne F1000 servo sub that was universally praised for its accuracy & musicality. With the EP 400's 6X the Velo's amp power & modern engineering, it easily outperforms my older sub & so it should. The EP 400 is not that common out there, but I didn't want another big black box in my space. Despite its diminutive size, it is more than adequate for my fairly large listening area & is simply outstanding for music.

I couldn't be happier with my Axiom sub...

TAM
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post #67 of 107
1/27/13 at 2:45pm
Thread Starter 
thanks for all the advice im defferntly going with the pb12 or the mk4 cant make up my mind the warenty is better on the svs and its 50 cheaper and been reading boards all day long and both seem good
i guess ill read some more and watch what people say . or measure them in my room and see which one will fit and look best
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post #68 of 107
1/27/13 at 3:18pm
I don't think you can go wrong with either choice, but heck you can get dual Caps from the classified sections and add an amp for under $2000. smile.gif.
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post #69 of 107
1/27/13 at 3:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbraden32 View Post

I don't think you can go wrong with either choice, but heck you can get dual Caps from the classified sections and add an amp for under $2000. smile.gif.
yea i like the svs look better for my room and save 50 dollars and the guy was really cool when he called and said he help me set em up right for my amp and room so im leaning that way
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post #70 of 107
1/27/13 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I think your opinions are very much shaped by a heavy bias toward HSU and a determination to make the VTF-3 the best sub in its class because you have owned one, even though there are no measurements for it in the data-bass.com table to compare with these other subs.

You're correct there is no measurements for the VTF3, but I think we can use the Outlaw LFM-1 EX measurements as a rough comparison, as the Outlaw is mostly just a clone of the older VTF3 mk2. So the Outlaw EX can outperform the NSD so handily, how do you think a improved and better spec'd version of it is going to fare against a NSD? As for Audioholics room rating, I am sure you wouldn't want an NSD in a 5k cubic foot room anymore than I would.
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post #71 of 107
1/27/13 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You're correct there is no measurements for the VTF3, but I think we can use the Outlaw LFM-1 EX measurements as a rough comparison, as the Outlaw is mostly just a clone of the older VTF3 mk2.

Actually, the Plus was touted as the clone of the VTF-2 MK2 when it was released, not the EX. Compare the measurements of the cabinet size between those two models, and you'll see the similarity.

But I still maintain that the SVS PB12-NSD and the VTF-3 MK4 are equivalent in class, even though they have some differences. This has already been discussed in the AVS subwoofer forum more than once. Why don't you reference some of those threads for the OP instead of trying to fight it out all over again and threadjacking this discussion?
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post #72 of 107
1/27/13 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Actually, the Plus was touted as the clone of the VTF-2 MK2 when it was released, not the EX. Compare the measurements of the cabinet size between those two models, and you'll see the similarity.

I was referring to the EX, not the Plus, but yes, the Plus would be the cousin of the VTF2. The EX has a slightly larger cabinet than the VTF3 mk2, but that is the only obvious difference. Amp power, driver and port orientation is the same. As for the VTF3 and Pb12 NSD being in the same class, we will just be in disagreement on that point.
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post #73 of 107
1/27/13 at 7:37pm
Thread Starter 
back at it again lol i made up my mind im going with svs just cant decide now if i should go with a pair of the PB-1000 s 10 inch or the pair of the PB12-NSD 12 inch subs
i remeasued my room its exact measures are
room
weith 12
length 13
hight 8

and its not a full closed room there a 6 foot arch way in the back where i will be sitting so 3 solid walls and one with a arch way

i did measure ments for both subs thy will both fit but i think the 10s would not jam up my room as much they will be sitting in front faceing me ...
where im at a lose i never heard a good powerd sub in person and in a small room .. if the 10s will sound great ill save 500 and get them but if i get em i dont want to regret not getting the 12's
i listen to alot of hd raido and watch some movies but i dont blast the movies i like to play the radio loud and also will have the dishnet work running on the system also ..
im just not sure what to do if the 10 inch will sound great and be powerfull enogh id love to spend the money
i got to sets of old cerwin vega 12 inch 3 ways and 10 inch 3 ways now i think the 12's sound alot better the 10s dont have enough bass .. but i understand these are top of the line powered subs and should be great
so comapred to a older 3 way 12 ince cerwin vega speaker ? will the pb-1000's blow them away on lows ? any input would be great i have no one that has em to go listen to them in person
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post #74 of 107
1/28/13 at 3:29am
fwiw, if mostly used for loud music/tv and the occassional movie not near reference levels i would save yourself some money and get the pb1000's as most music does not go down into the 20-30 hz realm but if these where to be used more for movie enjoyment i would go with the pb12 sub. imo if more towards the music spectrum and your size room i might start out with just the one pb12 and give a listen its probably will be way more than enough and again if you dont watch alot of movies then 2 will be overkill imo. and save you some cash and floor space in the long run. just my 2 cents
Edited by smasher50 - 1/28/13 at 3:52am
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post #75 of 107
1/28/13 at 6:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post

fwiw, if mostly used for loud music/tv and the occassional movie not near reference levels i would save yourself some money and get the pb1000's as most music does not go down into the 20-30 hz realm but if these where to be used more for movie enjoyment i would go with the pb12 sub. imo if more towards the music spectrum and your size room i might start out with just the one pb12 and give a listen its probably will be way more than enough and again if you dont watch alot of movies then 2 will be overkill imo. and save you some cash and floor space in the long run. just my 2 cents

ok but will the deep bass be the same with a 10 inch compared to a 12 inch ?? to my ears ? i deffenttly want to get the pair and when i watch a movie do what it to sound good
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post #76 of 107
1/30/13 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
i made up my mind finally im going to try this set up

Denon AVR-3313CI

room
weith 12
length 13
hight 8

front ascend acostics cmt340se
center ascend acostics cmt340se
rear ascend acostics cbm 170se

they have b stock in the cmt340s so i can get all the spearks with stands shiped for 1140

and for my subs im going to try the duel 10's
the svs pb 1000's

im going to place the order tommorrow and ill let you guys know how it sounds and take some pics
thanks alot for all the advice and help
and i made the buget with 2300 spent
i still need some cables for the subs should i get the svs ones for 30 each or does it really matter ??
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post #77 of 107
1/30/13 at 2:28pm
Hi there I'm not sure cables here matter with
What's left of your budget may have to go towards treating acoustically your almost square room.(worst type)
If not more costs.

Call acoustic panel company try should help.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/725842-need-advise-acoustic-treatment-square-room.html

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec09/articles/beginnersacoustics.htm
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post #78 of 107
1/30/13 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by glimerman View Post

i made up my mind finally im going to try this set up

Denon AVR-3313CI

room
weith 12
length 13
hight 8

front ascend acostics cmt340se
center ascend acostics cmt340se
rear ascend acostics cbm 170se

they have b stock in the cmt340s so i can get all the spearks with stands shiped for 1140

and for my subs im going to try the duel 10's
the svs pb 1000's

im going to place the order tommorrow and ill let you guys know how it sounds and take some pics
thanks alot for all the advice and help
and i made the buget with 2300 spent
i still need some cables for the subs should i get the svs ones for 30 each or does it really matter ??

Look forward to hearing what you think of that set-up.
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post #79 of 107
1/30/13 at 4:58pm
Monoprice has some inexpensive subwoofer cables that are of good quality. The SVS ones might be better build quality (I haven't seen them), but don't expect to get better SQ from them over the Monoprice.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you'll like that system once you get it setup. smile.gif

If this is your first time with Audyssey, be sure to run it and let it configure your system, but you will likely need to override how it sets crossovers to suit your taste.
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post #80 of 107
2/1/13 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Monoprice has some inexpensive subwoofer cables that are of good quality. The SVS ones might be better build quality (I haven't seen them), but don't expect to get better SQ from them over the Monoprice.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you'll like that system once you get it setup. smile.gif

If this is your first time with Audyssey, be sure to run it and let it configure your system, but you will likely need to override how it sets crossovers to suit your taste.

yes it will be my first time with a system with subs so the guy at svs said he would give me a hand setting it up over the phone
and will be my first time with audyssey the placed all the orders hopeing to get everything in by next thursday or friday
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post #81 of 107
2/1/13 at 10:27am
Klipsch can sound very good for HT, but if you put them in a room with a lot of hard reflective surfaces, you may not like the sound. One thing about Klipsch, they have the SPL capability to do the dynamics of HT and many soft dome tweeter speakers can't. What is going to be your listening distance and what are your listening habits?
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post #82 of 107
2/13/13 at 12:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Monoprice has some inexpensive subwoofer cables that are of good quality. The SVS ones might be better build quality (I haven't seen them), but don't expect to get better SQ from them over the Monoprice.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you'll like that system once you get it setup. smile.gif

If this is your first time with Audyssey, be sure to run it and let it configure your system, but you will likely need to override how it sets crossovers to suit your taste.


well i got it all set up and i did run audyssey and it sounds great during a movie with dolby dts but when i go to my 2 channel hd raido it sounds so pipped down they got my sub set to -12db and so im reading and still playing with the settings i might have to make some adjusments and i want to read about the crosovers beacuse all them are set differnt also .. so all and all im happy with it when watching a dts movie its great but in other modes i need more volume and bass out put .. there is alot to learn and a lot to read

for instanse when i play some tv shows it auto flips into dolby digital and sets it at -7db and i have to crank the volume up ..
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post #83 of 107
2/13/13 at 2:27pm
Hi there I use aydussey too but then I tweak it to my own liking for all my installs.

Manually..
Set db on sub to 0 then play with vol on back of sub till it sounds clean.

Crank up all speakers db add +7 to each speaker evenly then let us now.

So if front left db set at 2 set it manually at 9

Etc.


Take care





theaudioguy.ca
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post #84 of 107
2/13/13 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Klipsch can sound very good for HT, but if you put them in a room with a lot of hard reflective surfaces, you may not like the sound. One thing about Klipsch, they have the SPL capability to do the dynamics of HT and many soft dome tweeter speakers can't. What is going to be your listening distance and what are your listening habits?

I have noticed a trend with some of the recent measurements of Klipsch speakers in reviews that their efficiency numbers are greatly inflated. So I would do my homework depending on the model because instead of getting a 95+ db effficency it might be closer to 90-91.

I do like the sound of the Klipsch THX speakers but I am not a fan of the lower tiered Klipsch speakers (like the cheaper Synergy and Icon lines).
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post #85 of 107
2/13/13 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I have noticed a trend with some of the recent measurements of Klipsch speakers in reviews that their efficiency numbers are greatly inflated. So I would do my homework depending on the model because instead of getting a 95+ db effficency it might be closer to 90-91.

I do like the sound of the Klipsch THX speakers but I am not a fan of the lower tiered Klipsch speakers (like the cheaper Synergy and Icon lines).
.


I think op went with ascend speakers.
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post #86 of 107
2/13/13 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vm8444 View Post

Hi there I use aydussey too but then I tweak it to my own liking for all my installs.

Manually..
Set db on sub to 0 then play with vol on back of sub till it sounds clean.

Crank up all speakers db add +7 to each speaker evenly then let us now.

So if front left db set at 2 set it manually at 9

Etc.


Take care





theaudioguy.ca
im going to try that all mine are set in the - like my sub was set -12db and most my spearkers are set -5 db it sounds great in dts on a movie but dishnet work and the raido just to quiet
and it will off set -7 on some of my dolby digital dishnet work channels so it has to be cranked up alot
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post #87 of 107
2/13/13 at 8:49pm
Yes try sub at zero or so play with gain on rear of sub and -5?
Wow bring them up evenly to around +9 or 10 each but add each speaker evenly that adyseey set it at so minus 5 add say try go up higher to at least plus 9 for that speaker then same amount you added there add to all speakers .
So they won't be all the same etc.

All plus 14 etc to each for e.g.


Let us know

Take care.
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post #88 of 107
2/13/13 at 9:16pm
Oh and glimmer check these settings:
Make sure all speakers are set to small
Lfe channel for sub to 80hz

Then on back of subs set crossover all the way to full should be 150hz
It's nul cause Denon does its crossover from the reciever you should be set.

Lastly ....

I'd use these or similiar if I were you next upgrade
I do..
http://www.primacoustic.com/london8.htm

Area rug and you should have a few panels at least to treat your room.
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post #89 of 107
2/13/13 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vm8444 View Post

Oh and glimmer check these settings:
Make sure all speakers are set to small
Lfe channel for sub to 80hz

Then on back of subs set crossover all the way to full should be 150hz
It's nul cause Denon does its crossover from the reciever you should be set.

Lastly ....

I'd use these or similiar if I were you next upgrade
I do..
http://www.primacoustic.com/london8.htm

Area rug and you should have a few panels at least to treat your room.


im open to try new settings but i read for 2 days about settings and subs lol most say set the sub at lef not the crossover and also that was what the guy at svs told me too set it as also im running duel subs during dst movies everything is awesome its when i watch something else or listen the the radio every is so low
i got my lef channel set at 120 and my crossover set at 60htz for my speakers and it seems to be the denon that dails everything down like i went to watch a concert video as soon as it comes on denon says -8db the ones the stay normal sound great its the tv shows or videos i watch that the denon sets the off set to - 7 or -8 is makeing these changes.. everything is beatifual in dts movies bass rumbles everything sounds great but when i watch something else or try hd raido things just sound bad and there is no bass really ... im new tp thos so ill read more and try differnt things just dont understand how everything is awesome with out messing with the audessy settings at all of dts movies but when on other sources things are dull its mostly the bass the front speakers still sound good just low and bass is gone at -12 as the system is set
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post #90 of 107
2/13/13 at 9:40pm
Thread Starter 
i just turned the phase button all the way to on one sub and left it to 0 on the other sub and its alot deeper base so i like that setting much difference in deep base running duel subs
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