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Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth - Page 5

post #121 of 242
Thread Starter 
I agree with MM. Take the grills off.

Hoped to test the milleskin last weekend. Sorry didn't happen. Hopefully this weekend. My finger feel test says it's great stuff. I expect excellent results.
post #122 of 242
Cool. Yeah, I took the grills of my Aperion 6-LCRs as soon as I got them mounted. I figured that having another layer between the drivers and speaker was unnecessary at best.
post #123 of 242
I'll stay tuned!
post #124 of 242
Cool. Yeah, I took the grills of my Aperion 6-LCRs as soon as I got them mounted. I figured that having another layer between the drivers and speaker was unnecessary at best.
post #125 of 242
TC,

Did you ever test the impulse response with the speakers further away than 3 inches?
post #126 of 242
Thread Starter 
Not yet. Haven't done angles yet either. Those might help. I think angles will help the most. But often people can't afford the space of leaving a 12" gap between the speaker and the screen. It's just a waste of space.

Crossing my fingers for this weekend biggrin.gif
post #127 of 242
Angles as in different toe in positions?
post #128 of 242
Thread Starter 
Ya. Sound reflected off the screen needs to be reflected back off the speaker baffle through the screen and into the mic. That's why it's delayed in the impulse response. If the speaker is toed in, it'll reflect off the screen and then mid the speaker. Somewhat baffle width and angle dependent though. Not sure how ill investigate it. Ill start by just playing around and see what happens.
post #129 of 242
Ok new here, first post.

I'm thinking two layers Milliskin. Any chance those tests got done, I'm VERY interested, and thanks for doing them! (I'm probably ordering fabric tomorrow, so any info is very helpful!)

I've heard a lot of opinions about colors, where have we landed right now with most people? Silver with white underneath? The $20 thread with black in the back was kind of interesting.... thoughts, quick?

Thanks everyone!
post #130 of 242
Thread Starter 
AT wise I'm pretty sure 2 layers will be fine. This stuff is much thinner than moleskin.

Tests weren't done though frown.gif Had to finish a speaker design. That's wrapped up though so it really will happen.
post #131 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

AT wise I'm pretty sure 2 layers will be fine. This stuff is much thinner than moleskin.

Tests weren't done though frown.gif Had to finish a speaker design. That's wrapped up though so it really will happen.

I'm looking forward to it all. It was very obvious to me when I made a direct one-on-one comparison that it was in error to suggest Moleskin. But that was because I did not know Milliskin was "out there". After the examination, it seems a "Duh" moment that both surface and acoustical properties inherent in the Milliskin would be superior to those of Moleskin.
post #132 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by moevin View Post

Ok new here, first post.

I'm thinking two layers Milliskin. Any chance those tests got done, I'm VERY interested, and thanks for doing them! (I'm probably ordering fabric tomorrow, so any info is very helpful!)

I've heard a lot of opinions about colors, where have we landed right now with most people? Silver with white underneath? The $20 thread with black in the back was kind of interesting.... thoughts, quick?

Thanks everyone!

First off, welcome to DIY Screens on AVS!

For best Blacks, and if you have the lumen output to handle such...., Silver over White.

For the most possible brightness, White over Silver, which in turn delivers better Black levels than White -on-White alone can. White over Black takes the equation too far IMO, because the light that does pass through the top White layer gets wholly absorbed and is lost, not used to augment (retain) the surface's reflectivity.

Much was said here and elsewhere about how the use of Silver at the rear was / is detrimental. That's bunk, because when both materials are used in such a manner that they are effectively layered together, the brighter White becomes a light Gray. There is no "rebound effect" that would effectively distort or skewer the image or it's colors beyond the desired deepening of Blacks that would NOT occur if either a White-on-White or a single layer of White was used.

Even if there was a very slight effect coming from the silver underneath, one that shifted any color a tiny bit, effective calibration could easily handle that. But light "lost" cannot be replaced except by adding even more lumen to the equation, which in and of itself can present more issues than it solves.

Lastly, using a Moleskin Silver (...or White...) for the rear cannot hurt, and actually help by retaining more passed-thru light due to it's additional thickness. But if acoustical transparency concerns are included, that scenario should be avoided. I am certain that tuxedocivic's testing will eventually prove that to be the case in hand.
post #133 of 242
Ok well... I'm in for 140" of milliskin silver on white goodness.. we'll see how it goes.

My projector is the Optoma HD20, so not tons of lumens (1700) and a large surface. I do have a bat-cave so that should help. I've been running off of a white matte photo backdrop for a few years, but I need something better and I need AT. The AT is required since my speakers sit around my LCD TV which is behind the screen. So I'll be making the screen fold up to the ceiling. Similar to what was happening in the $20 thread towards the end... (which we never heard his end-story for).

Hopefully all will run well as we're hosting a huge movie party next weekend.

Y'know what would be nice... if people posted their projector and screen type in the signature... it's very confusing remembering what everyone decided to run with recently so for me:

Moevin
Optoma HD20
2 layer Milliskin silver on white spandex
post #134 of 242
Moevin,

I'd reconsider going Silver over White to "White over Silver". At the size screen you want, the HD20 will be very hard pressed to deliver a dynamic image unless you run it always in Presentation Mode. Even then, while the Silver will make your Black levels look like they come from a CRT unit, total darkness will be the only viable environment to watch in.
post #135 of 242
I just wanted to contribute to the thread. MM helped me build my 135" AT screen with white milliskin over silver and I FINALLY have gotten it rehung on the wall but alas I am still working on getting the projector mounted. I painted the screen wall black so if you can imagine I have a black wall background, then silver, then white as the screen material. I haven't thrown an image at the screen yet but with all the lights on in the room you cannot see through the screen or see any of the 2x4's we used to frame it. I'll take some pics tonight just showing the screen on the wall. I'm very much looking forward to the tests of the milliskin material since I have just my center located behind my screen.
post #136 of 242
Thanks MM,

The Optoma isn't a permanent choice, but then again Spandex is cheap. I'll try both ways when it comes and then decide...

I appreciate the input!

Moevin
post #137 of 242
I just wanted to bump this to see if you got anywhere with the milliskin?
post #138 of 242
Thread Starter 
BAM!



Very freakin' good. Impulse response is hardly touched, which is as expected when the acoustic properties hardly change.
post #139 of 242
Milliskin redeemed ! cool.gif

This means of course that a dual layer of White Milliskin would be a best case for a AT Screen in a dedicated Theater that sports a ultra high contrast PJ.

It would be very interesting to see how "that other "DIY" Mfg AT Screen Cloth would do in comparison. wink.gif
post #140 of 242
Thread Starter 
As far as AT properties go, milleskin is better than XD, pretty minor difference though. And two layers brings it closer. But I haven't projected on the milleskin yet. I have silver and white here, so ill try both. But I'm totally subjective in the picture quality department. The material is dead smooth though.
post #141 of 242
Yes....and frankly, when combined with the AT aspects, the one most considered as being the most valued and important as far a the technical advantage sought by those who need such, the visual aspect is IMO more than satisfactory of the proper choice of PJ accompanies it. Why, just the wholesale elimination of the potential for Morie simply adds more reason to herald Spandex use of AT Advocates.

Then there is the cost difference, and the purported ease if application, both of which add even more emphasis.

All in all, a decisive blow in the name of true DIY Screen idealism, the use of materials not specifically intended as being mfg / labeled as "Projection Screen" materials, as well as the subjective choosing of such based on the obvious visual appearance.

Your own measured approach and unbiased overview is exactly what was needed to justify such a materials consideration against a Mfg solution, and should provide further justification for the lack of needing to arbitrarily consider such for what has always been a specialized use.
post #142 of 242
Tux - can you describe the testing procedure so we can make sure we're comparing apples to apples? If you could repost a few of them all using the same methodology I would appreciate it.

MississippiMan - I know you said yesterday that you felt the doubled white milliskin was the best choice for ultra high contract projectors - could you elaborate and explain which projectors you're talking about? Which colors or fabrics would you recommend for other-than-ultra-high-contrast projectors?

Thanks to both of your for your contributions - you are about to make my screen decision very easy (I hope).

Fred
post #143 of 242
Thread Starter 
Hey Fred,

The procedure is not difference than that laid out in post 1. I hope to soon organize this thread a little bit to get all the data all together for easier reading. Right now it's spread through the thread. The only difference this time, is ti's sunny out so I measure outdoors. This allows me to get my gate time way out to 7ms. Now, in case that sounds like a big deal, it's now, we're only interested in >500hz essentially, so I could have done this indoors but I was already outside for a diysoundgroup speaker project. The bare speaker response did NOT change.

Ok, here's an apples to apples look at XD vs 2 layers of milliskin. Here's a difference plot. The closer to 0db the less "distorted" the product made the speaker. You can see there's hardly any difference at all.



Here's a full scale difference.



Red is XD and green is 2 layers of miliskin. You can see they're both very close. And if you were to go with only 1 layer, well, it's clear the milliskin hardly touches the sound.
post #144 of 242
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Why, just the wholesale elimination of the potential for Morie simply adds more reason to herald Spandex use of AT Advocates.

Then there is the cost difference, and the purported ease if application, both of which add even more emphasis.

That is a good point. Speaking from experience, the mesh of the XD was a total deal breaker for me. Visually awful. (caveat: as a reminder I sit <10ft away).
post #145 of 242
Looks good, tux! Thank you for doing this.

So do you think it the same cloth as the Fabric Land one after all? The FR curves seem very close and minor discrepancies are probably due to slightly different set up.





To me it seems the ref curves are a little bit different indicating that the set up was very close but not identical.

Just to clarify, was the XD curve in the second chart taken from the indoor measurement set, or you had a chance to measure both XD and Milliskin outdoors?
post #146 of 242
Thread Starter 
Hey zheka!

Once the gates are all the same, they look even more similar. The small differences are probably mic distance or ambient noise. Hard to say.

The important thing to note is the differences graph. That's a lot more indicative of the difference. And those are based off each of their native bare responses. The second graph is just sort of a added visual.
post #147 of 242
Thread Starter 
Oh and when I said the bare speaker response did NOT change, I probably sounded to strong. I didn't mean there weren't any changes like a db here or there. I meant that the speaker still measures nominally as it did before so we can make some general comparisons. Again, the big thing is looking at the differences graph. Hope that makes a little more sense.

And I haven't determined if its the same stuff as Fabricland. I wanna drape some over my screen and see. I really think it might be though.
post #148 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post


MississippiMan - I know you said yesterday that you felt the doubled white milliskin was the best choice for ultra high contract projectors - could you elaborate and explain which projectors you're talking about? Which colors or fabrics would you recommend for other-than-ultra-high-contrast projectors?

Fred

Let's try it again.....just lost a long posted response once more to the site's inability to save text cookies.... mad.gif

High Lumen / High Contrast PJs (...newer JVCs and the Panny 8000) can utilize the White / White Milliskin scenario because they have the oomph in lumen output to offset the absorption that comes from projecting onto thin porous material, and the inherent Blacks to deliver satisfying Deep Contrast even on a bright white surface. Much mention is made about how a white surface is all that is needed with a exceptional performing PJ...but that is absolutely contingent upon such a screen / PJ combo NOT having to worry about being affected by any outside governing influences, such as excessive ambient light, or directly reflected "projected" light off of adjoining surfaces.

When such unfortunate...and non-correctable situations arise, a PJ must be chosen for both it's primary attributes AND mated with a Spandex combination of varying colors. Such as Light Silver over White Milliskin

For such worst case situations, the PJ's of choice are:

Viewsonic Pro8200 -8300- 8400 series
Optoma GT705 - 750e - TH1020 -TH 1060p - SP890 - SH901 - SH940

........most all of which have more than sufficient lumen to drive into even 135" to 160" Light Silver over White Milliskin AT Screens. The 4K Lumen O's even larger.

Lurking around the edges of both are the PJ / Screen combos that can benefit from a White over Light Silver Milliskin app. Those would entail PJs at / under 2000 lumens and with moderate to poor contrast ( under 10K:1 On-Off)

When in doubt during the choosing process, a post for advice will almost always garner a response. Now that the acoustical properties have been ascertained, and "if" some can get past the visual properties not being absolutely as perfect as a solid screen material (...but damn close enough, I say ! ) there should be a rush by those who really need / want a truly affordable AT solution.

And let's not forget our "Non-AT Required" brethren, whose opportunities to use any of the aforementioned for a great performing, easy to assemble, lightweight screen have been significantly expanded with the knowledge that Spandex can...and does suit such purposes very well.

............if you / one chooses the right PJ for the job at hand, of course.

PS...considering I started this post out originally almost minutes after Fred's post hit, you can imagine my consternation when virtually all you read above was suddenly lost to non-existent bytes. Perseverance?

... hell no....simple stubbornness. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post


And I haven't determined if its the same stuff as Fabricland. I wanna drape some over my screen and see. I really think it might be though.

It might be close...but the odds it came from the same Mill, let alone the same run are extremely small.
post #149 of 242
Code:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The important thing to note is the differences graph. That's a lot more indicative of the difference. And those are based off each of their native bare responses. The second graph is just sort of a added visual.

Got it. Thank you
post #150 of 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

BAM!



Very freakin' good. Impulse response is hardly touched, which is as expected when the acoustic properties hardly change.




This is fantastic. Way better than I've anticipated. Thanks Tux.

Did you stretch the fabric or simply hung over the speaker? Also, did you have a chance to measure with the speaker off axis?
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