AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Home Theater Computers › Issue with WD Red Drives
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Issue with WD Red Drives - Page 2

post #31 of 73
I'm not even sure how they can tell if 5 or more are installed ????

Its shows up right ?

Bit its not usable or able to be initialized ?

Did you try swapping a red for another and testing ?

What it you formatted a few unplugged them then formatted others then plugged them all in ???
post #32 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I'm not even sure how they can tell if 5 or more are installed ????

Its shows up right ?

Bit its not usable or able to be initialized ?

Did you try swapping a red for another and testing ?

What it you formatted a few unplugged them then formatted others then plugged them all in ???

I believe he tried all of those things.

As you can see in the screenshot you can see the 6th drive but thats it. It won't let you add or format it with the other 5 attached. Add a 6th drive thats a green and it works. Add that red drive to another machine and it works on that machine.
post #33 of 73
So strange. What if you format and then plug in??? It doesn't show ? Or it's just not accessible ?
post #34 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I'm not even sure how they can tell if 5 or more are installed ????

What it you formatted a few unplugged them then formatted others then plugged them all in ???

There's an echo in here smile.gif


-I'd definitely connect 6th drive to a different machine, write a small file to it, then move it back into the original machine.

It looks like they are already formatted to gpt from the screenshot, it's just that the 6th drive has cross-hatching through it's volume label? Or is there a 7th drive connected there that isn't even showing. Either way, try with a file written to it
post #35 of 73
FWIW, there a number of people that reported using 5+ red drives on the newegg page without issue, so at least it doesn't seem to be affecting everyone.
post #36 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I don't believe the conspiracy theory on the Seagate . My Seagates have fewer on off cycles than my WDs do.
I noticed extremely high load cycles on my Seagate 7200.14 also. I was up in the thousands after 1 week. The culprit was using HDD SMART monitors. The 7200.14 appears to fall into a sleep state after 30 seconds and then a deeper sleep state after 50 seconds (see review from SilentPCReview), and Speedfan was polling it every minute, causing a load/unload cycle every minute. I stopped SMART monitoring now to prevent the load cycles from increasing at such an insane rate.

I don't think it's a conspiracy to make drives fail though. I see it as simply a power saving measure. I think Seagate is trying to produce a single low-end line for all-purpose use rather than the WD Red, Blue, Green strategy, and the sleep states are there to keep idle power somewhat comparable to the WD Green.
post #37 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlantNGo View Post

I think Seagate is trying to produce a single low-end line for all-purpose use rather than the WD Red, Blue, Green strategy, and the sleep states are there to keep idle power somewhat comparable to the WD Green.
Red is green smile.gif
post #38 of 73
Thread Starter 
I have updates on this issue. Will post more once I am home from work.

To summarize though wd is blaming the asrock fatal1ty motherboard (which again works fine with 6+ green drives). Also tried again to add a 6th red drive formatted on a different computer with a small file with no success.

Something is very strange. I will post some screenshots later.
post #39 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

To summarize though wd is blaming the asrock fatal1ty motherboard (which again works fine with 6+ green drives).

That should be easy to confirm with a ASUS C60M1-I or ASUS P8H77-I w/o dropping a lot of coin (these have 6 x SATA on board).

You build enough PCs and you see some really bizarre incompatibilities.
post #40 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

That should be easy to confirm with a ASUS C60M1-I or ASUS P8H77-I w/o dropping a lot of coin (these have 6 x SATA on board).

You build enough PCs and you see some really bizarre incompatibilities.

No doubt.
post #41 of 73
So your saying another motherboard and there is no issue ?
post #42 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

So your saying another motherboard and there is no issue ?

I am trying to confirm what (if any) other motherboard they used for testing. I don't know this answer as of right now. I think they used another one for testing.
post #43 of 73
It is true that 4/10 available sata lanes are specific to as rock motherboards (asmedia sata controllers), but the other six are standard Intel pch sata lanes

None of it makes sense to me, but HDD firmware is not my area of expertise. Keep us posted, thanks for the information
post #44 of 73
This question is kind of off-topic but why are Red drives SO much cheaper than Black drives? I couldn't believe it when I saw the price for a 3TB Red drive.
post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryker412 View Post

This question is kind of off-topic but why are Red drives SO much cheaper than Black drives? I couldn't believe it when I saw the price for a 3TB Red drive.

Mostly because the black is a pig.

It's far over priced and its a total pig on energy. It's profile leaves much to be desired.

It's makes its performance using older technology that's beefed up. It still sucks compared to more modern designs and platters.

Black line is old and its garbage. It's not more reliable and it still uses head parking of green. Sure it's faster but it uses way too much energy to do it.

A Seagate 3TB is also fast but its a more modern platter and design and its a lot more efficient with a better energy profile.

I'd say the answer for your question is WD makes the black line still only as a low volume line and makes up for that low volume with increased margins.

I think the only ones that buy black drives are noobs that don't know the real performance metrics and fall for the black line marketing. Black isn't really superior except at consuming energy or selling for a high price. Those are not at the top of my buying factors list of consideration areas.
post #46 of 73
Its like an older model car modified to go fast versus a modern sports car that's already fast. You might go fast in straight line but there is sacrifices you forgive in many areas. Fuel efficiency, comfort, etc...

That's like energy, heat, noise etc....
post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Mostly because the black is a pig.

It's far over priced and its a total pig on energy. It's profile leaves much to be desired.

It's makes its performance using older technology that's beefed up. It still sucks compared to more modern designs and platters.

Black line is old and its garbage. It's not more reliable and it still uses head parking of green. Sure it's faster but it uses way too much energy to do it.

A Seagate 3TB is also fast but its a more modern platter and design and its a lot more efficient with a better energy profile.

I'd say the answer for your question is WD makes the black line still only as a low volume line and makes up for that low volume with increased margins.

I think the only ones that buy black drives are noobs that don't know the real performance metrics and fall for the black line marketing. Black isn't really superior except at consuming energy or selling for a high price. Those are not at the top of my buying factors list of consideration areas.

OK, I'm sorry but this is just wrong. The Black line is for a totally different market where performance (IOps) is more important than capacity or energy usage. The Black is a 7200 RPM drive with much lower access times and random read/write performance than the Reds (or Greens).

See here:
http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_red_nas_hard_drive_review_wd30efrx
http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_caviar_black_review_2tb

At 4K random the Black is about 1.5x faster for random writes and almost twice as fast for random reads. Average write latency is ~6ms for the Black vs almost 9ms for the Red. And this is despite the much higher areal density of the Reds. The black is simply much faster at everything than than the Reds, except for sequential transfers.

Now don't get me wrong, for HTPC storage I agree there's no point to the Black, they're way too expensive and their performance benefits will never be realized, in fact the sequential transfer rate benefits of the Reds would be more of a benefit.

However if you need a couple TB of space and don't want to (or can't afford to) go the SSD for OS/apps + spinner for data, then a Black is a much better choice (to have your OS on) than a Red.

It's all a matter of the right tool for the job. The Red is the right choice for mass data storage where random access performance isn't important, while the Black is the right choice when you need a relatively large amount of storage but good random access performance.
post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

This is not meant to be a RED vs GREEN vs BLUE vs SSD thread so please do not turn it into one.

Nice try though.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

OK, I'm sorry but this is just wrong. The Black line is for a totally different market where performance (IOps) is more important than capacity or energy usage. The Black is a 7200 RPM drive with much lower access times and random read/write performance than the Reds (or Greens).

See here:
http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_red_nas_hard_drive_review_wd30efrx
http://www.storagereview.com/western_digital_caviar_black_review_2tb

At 4K random the Black is about 1.5x faster for random writes and almost twice as fast for random reads. Average write latency is ~6ms for the Black vs almost 9ms for the Red. And this is despite the much higher areal density of the Reds. The black is simply much faster at everything than than the Reds, except for sequential transfers.

Now don't get me wrong, for HTPC storage I agree there's no point to the Black, they're way too expensive and their performance benefits will never be realized, in fact the sequential transfer rate benefits of the Reds would be more of a benefit.

However if you need a couple TB of space and don't want to (or can't afford to) go the SSD for OS/apps + spinner for data, then a Black is a much better choice (to have your OS on) than a Red.

It's all a matter of the right tool for the job. The Red is the right choice for mass data storage where random access performance isn't important, while the Black is the right choice when you need a relatively large amount of storage but good random access performance.

Well your comparing a 5400RPM drive with energy saving mode hardware to an old pig that used have those specs that mattered for people using it for an OS drive.

Outside of an OS drive - or some workstation application- I fail to see where any of that matters.

Storage of movies and media is usually sequential- not small random 4k reads/writes. It's GB at a time... all in a row.

Black is simply inappropriate for media or HTPC applications.

And I was not talking about it against RED or GREEN. I was pointing out the Seagates with modern design can outperform in read and write speeds, offer much lower cost per GB- and also use far less energy because they are newer/better designed. They are not designed to be a hot rod like the BLACK. They are designed to be balanced. I like that balance for storage.

Who looks at random 4 k reads on a HDD these days ? Not for media servers or media PC's.....


RED/GREEN/SEAGATE > BLACK for any media server of HTPC application.


I was only answering why they are so overpriced.
post #50 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

Nice try though.
I guess that is my hint I should shut up now... lol
post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

It is true that 4/10 available sata lanes are specific to as rock motherboards (asmedia sata controllers), but the other six are standard Intel pch sata lanes

None of it makes sense to me, but HDD firmware is not my area of expertise. Keep us posted, thanks for the information

Further on the actual topic smile.gif

Of the 6 available Sata III ports, two are standard lanes from the intel chipset but the other four are asrock "feature" addons provided by an asmedia asm1061 controller

The other 4 sata ports are Sata II, and they are standard lanes from the intel chipset.

This and other enthusiast boards have their own software raid feature built into their bios. Can you confirm the bios raid settings are either off or JBOD instead of RAID 0, 1, 5, 10?
post #52 of 73
Okay, I can't easily find the "onboard RAID" options in the bios, maybe I was wrong about that. There are 2 sata controllers that need to be set to AHCI mode, just one other thing to check http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/1976#14
post #53 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Okay, I can't easily find the "onboard RAID" options in the bios, maybe I was wrong about that. There are 2 sata controllers that need to be set to AHCI mode, just one other thing to check http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/1976#14

Excellent thought. Will make sure this has been done.
post #54 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Okay, I can't easily find the "onboard RAID" options in the bios, maybe I was wrong about that. There are 2 sata controllers that need to be set to AHCI mode, just one other thing to check http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/1976#14

I just double checked. Both of those were enabled during testing.
post #55 of 73
Personally one of the biggest advantages of software raid to me is the fact that I can use different manufacturer and model hard drives. In this way a manufacture problem can't take down my entire array.

With a media server even the slowest modern HDD is plenty fast enough for multiple HTPC's.

I understand why you are using all of the same HDD Assassin(sourcing/historical) but it wouldn't be a bad idea to differentiate your product by using multiple vendors in an array.

This is not intended as an attack, just a suggestion.
post #56 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by macks View Post

Personally one of the biggest advantages of software raid to me is the fact that I can use different manufacturer and model hard drives. In this way a manufacture problem can't take down my entire array.

With a media server even the slowest modern HDD is plenty fast enough for multiple HTPC's.

I understand why you are using all of the same HDD Assassin(sourcing/historical) but it wouldn't be a bad idea to differentiate your product by using multiple vendors in an array.

This is not intended as an attack, just a suggestion.

We make all sorts of stuff with all kinds of different configurations.
post #57 of 73
I don't see an issue using all the same brand or model.

You pick something you feel is good and hope for the best.

Stuff like this isn't supposed to happen.

It seems like this is a rather unique issue and while it sucks for those effected its highly unlikely to impact the majority if WD RED owners.
post #58 of 73
Sorry if this was answered: but does the BIOS see all 5+ drives when hooked up (specifically the Reds)? Have you been able to verify if it is specific to a certain MB vendor? Using any RAID controllers? Have you tried using a SATA controller instead of the on-board SATA connectors?
post #59 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epyon415 View Post

Sorry if this was answered: but does the BIOS see all 5+ drives when hooked up (specifically the Reds)? Have you been able to verify if it is specific to a certain MB vendor? Using any RAID controllers? Have you tried using a SATA controller instead of the on-board SATA connectors?

Not sure. I will ask but I am sure they showed up in bios.
post #60 of 73
Thread Starter 
Here are some pictures of the final build for those interested...

Thanks everyone for trying to troubleshoot. We plan on using a different board next time when using 5+ reds to see if that fixes the issue.







New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Home Theater Computers
AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Home Theater Computers › Issue with WD Red Drives