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ZT60 Series, Shipping May 2013, Models/Sizes/List Prices - Page 9

post #241 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

So I guess projection is out for you? biggrin.gif

Funny you mention that biggrin.gif

But seriously what is it I'm missing about overall brightness that would lead some to trade contrast ratio for it. Is it video games? Or does it really make that much difference to hockey smile.gif? I have my bias/ perspective rooted in being primarily a film fan which I know some are not.
post #242 of 1309
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post



Best Buy's TV market share in the 50" & up market is 31%. 3 times higher than any other retailer. Why would any manufacturer prefer to have Amazon as a friend instead of Best Buy? I think many people fail to realize just how big of a player Best Buy is. They're not going anywhere any time soon.

How about this: Amazon is Joe Frazier to BB's Ali. They needed one another to define and unleash greatness in each. Maybe BB is a better company now. But price matching online retailers in Q4 to create sales & revenue numbers is not a long range business plan. They were price matching buytvtoday.ru for crying out loud. wink.gif

Partnership with Samsung and trying to create a premium brand like Home Depot seems to be working because the housing market seems to be recovering. However, Robert Schiller says the housing recovery is an illusion created by artifically tight inventory and low interest rates and that model isn't sutainable.

Look, I hope BB makes it. I had a great experience buying gifts there over the holiday season. People were really nice (if still full of misinformation delivered with confidence and a smile). smile.gif
Edited by Glashub - 4/9/13 at 5:54am
post #243 of 1309
^That post was just chock full of cool metaphors (I'm partial to the one about the housing market and the FED's low interest rate game eek.gif).
post #244 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Funny you mention that biggrin.gif

But seriously what is it I'm missing about overall brightness that would lead some to trade contrast ratio for it. Is it video games? Or does it really make that much difference to hockey smile.gif? I have my bias/ perspective rooted in being primarily a film fan which I know some are not.

The problem is you are having a tough time thinking outside of your own personal preference wink.gif ....It doesnt matter WHY only that they do......you need to be empathetic in order for this to work smile.gif

not everyone knows or cares about contrast ratio, that contrast ratio while good is not the entire picture it is but one small piece of it.....If everyone cared about contrast ratio they wouldnt pick the LCDs that are blazing eyesballs and hung on everywall from Best Buy to Walmart....
post #245 of 1309
^It's the biggest piece, unless your viewing experience is confined to background viewing and in bright environments most of the time. wink.gif
post #246 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^It's the biggest piece, unless your viewing experience is confined to background viewing and in bright environments most of the time. wink.gif


To YOU and some others its the biggest piece....each person however has thier own requirements.....we could go into Walmart\Best Buy\Wherever and tell them that the ZT60 has a 100,000:1 contrast ratio and they would simply tell you well that TV right there has a 2.000.000:1 contrast ratio and costs only a few hundred dollars and they would walk away.......

Not so sure whats so hard to break out of what I think is best and whats best for someone else......Plenty bright for one person may not be plenty bright for another, just like accurate colors may be more important to someone than a huge contrast ratio......

Hey honey I ahve this great $4K TV the contrast ratio is out of this world, her reponse why cant I watch it durring the day it looks so dim wink.gif .....
post #247 of 1309
Not just me, though, as this was was the determination made by the ISF in assessing the key components of PQ. CR was at the top followed by color saturation and things like color accuracy and rez down below. I went the brighter LCD route previously, and still can't objectively be honest and say it provided for a better, or accurate, picture. All I'm suggesting is there are some objective measurements on which we can rely, and I realize there are other variables (that have less of an impact unless you're watching in a greenhouse or the like wink.gif).
post #248 of 1309
Going round and round in circles... My previous statement stands. It seems people have hard time stepping outside of the box.

Vinnie I didn't say it was just your said "and some others" as there are others who share your viewpoint. You can throw acronyms and numbers to wazoo in the end the ONLY opinion that matters is the owner of the TV. Numbers are used as "measuring sticks" and I am beyond that point in my life. If the TV looks good to the owner then who am I to say its a crappy TV?

Round and round and round we go....sighhh
post #249 of 1309
lol, not intentionally trying to argue, just stating there's some real world validity behind why these parameters make the biggest difference in PQ. If a screen seems excessively dim because of environmental lights shining upon/around it (which is of course not the ideal way to watch any content), then of course they will all have less impact. And then we have to factor in things like how well is the antireflection coating working, et al. Even with a room that is lit in the day, I consider these items to be secondarily important. I am considered way off-base for someone who demands daytime brightness to compete with the daylight. biggrin.gif
post #250 of 1309
Vinnie you keep making the same point as do I (circles and circles) you know what's important to you and you have numbers and studies to back that up. To Karen down the street however those studies and numbers mean nothing. Again my point is and always has been step outside of the box and understand what's important to you may not be important to someone else. That the best TV for you is not always the best TV for someone else.

You should know I've been around long enough to know what makes a quality picture, having that knowledge however does not prevent me from seeing that everyone has an idea of what the best picture is. The only wrong to/picture is the one your not happy with.
post #251 of 1309
Thread Starter 
"^That post was just chock full of cool metaphors (I'm partial to the one about the housing market and the FED's low interest rate game )."

Thank you Vinnie. I'm house hunting in LA and there is so little inventory on the market that short sale houses go on the market in the morning and are pending by the afternoon -- the same day. That's big investment money or people so desperate -- they are putting in list price bids based on pictures and location. Open houses attract hundreds -- crazy.

And then folks read -- Housing market improving -- Price going up, up, up!

(On the 32 houses made available every month in a city of 12MM). rolleyes.gif
Edited by Glashub - 4/9/13 at 6:13am
post #252 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Funny you mention that biggrin.gif

But seriously what is it I'm missing about overall brightness that would lead some to trade contrast ratio for it. Is it video games? Or does it really make that much difference to hockey smile.gif? I have my bias/ perspective rooted in being primarily a film fan which I know some are not.

It's because, in the case of the F8500, you get both MLLs that are better than almost any display currently sold (not talking about the ZT60 since it's not sold yet and we have no #s) plus you get the brightest display in the history of plasma. That's a pretty damn good combination of virtues. It makes for an image that, IMO, is extremely dimensional. I don't see its brightness giving up anything on the low end. This creates a display that can really shine in either very dark or very bright rooms.

But we should probably keep this to a ZT60 discussion. wink.gif
post #253 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Not just me, though, as this was was the determination made by the ISF in assessing the key components of PQ. CR was at the top followed by color saturation and things like color accuracy and rez down below. I went the brighter LCD route previously, and still can't objectively be honest and say it provided for a better, or accurate, picture. All I'm suggesting is there are some objective measurements on which we can rely, and I realize there are other variables (that have less of an impact unless you're watching in a greenhouse or the like wink.gif).

Vinnie, what the ISF says is not necessarily what the typical buyer feels. They can be worlds apart on this.
post #254 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's because, in the case of the F8500, you get both MLLs that are better than almost any display currently sold (not talking about the ZT60 since it's not sold yet and we have no #s) plus you get the brightest display in the history of plasma. That's a pretty damn good combination of virtues. It makes for an image that, IMO, is extremely dimensional. I don't see its brightness giving up anything on the low end. This creates a display that can really shine in either very dark or very bright rooms.

But we should probably keep this to a ZT60 discussion. wink.gif

Well I do see it as a Zt60 discussion because it relates on how to choose between two strong ones. The Zt60 seems to offer a very impressive contrast ratio with supposedly a filter that will deal with ambient light better (all unverified of course). Now granted, even I am a sucker for brightness at the store front since my eyes naturally gravitate towards the display that's brightest, but that doesn't translate to what I am going to see at home as I've found. When i bought my LCD one of the first things I did was turn the backlight down to half of the max which was an experience many owners did as well. Didn't we just lose brightness at that moment? Same thing for the plasma I took home, the calibrated settings dialed down the brightness significantly. I'm guessing the same will hold true for both these tv's. Afterwhich people will be left with their contrast ratios which is what in my expereience has followed what my eyes perceived at home to be the best indicator of my enjoyment (technology flaws/cons/defects aside of course wink.gif)

Personal preference in the end. Maybe its like those big muscle cars that people drive 55mph on the fwy with, they just like to know they have the option in the end biggrin.gif or maybe it really is as simple as store front science for 'Karen down the road' and we should turn all whites blue wink.gif
post #255 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

"^That post was just chock full of cool metaphors (I'm partial to the one about the housing market and the FED's low interest rate game )."

Thank you Vinnie. I'm house hunting in LA and there is so little inventory on the market that short sale houses go on the market in the morning and are pending by the afternoon -- the same day. That's big investment money or people so desperate -- they are putting in list price bids based on pictures and location. Open houses attract hundreds -- crazy.

And then folks read -- Housing market improving -- Price going up, up, up!

(On the 32 houses made available every month in a city of 12MM). rolleyes.gif

definitely not on topic, but believe Bob Shiller was just talking about this phenomenon. Good luck on those bids - competing with cash offers that come in before the house has even been shown once is definitely no fun! wink.gif
post #256 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Well I do see it as a Zt60 discussion because it relates on how to choose between two strong ones. The Zt60 seems to offer a very impressive contrast ratio with supposedly a filter that will deal with ambient light better (all unverified of course). Now granted, even I am a sucker for brightness at the store front since my eyes naturally gravitate towards the display that's brightest, but that doesn't translate to what I am going to see at home as I've found. When i bought my LCD one of the first things I did was turn the backlight down to half of the max which was an experience many owners did as well. Didn't we just lose brightness at that moment? Same thing for the plasma I took home, the calibrated settings dialed down the brightness significantly. I'm guessing the same will hold true for both these tv's. Afterwhich people will be left with their contrast ratios which is what in my expereience has followed what my eyes perceived at home to be the best indicator of my enjoyment (technology flaws/cons/defects aside of course wink.gif)

Personal preference in the end. Maybe its like those big muscle cars that people drive 55mph on the fwy with, they just like to know they have the option in the end biggrin.gif or maybe it really is as simple as store front science for 'Karen down the road' and we should turn all whites blue wink.gif

And here is where we ahve the difference between a "regular" avs contributor and "karen down the street" wink.gif

AVS members will tend to calibrate their sets or has them calibrated, the greater population however, turns the TV on and watches it, sometimes adjusting something here and there.....So birghtness especially when dealing with in store brightness to sell the set to someone here is NOT that improtant....

I am not arguing that brigtness is MORE inportant than contrast ratio, but sometimes we tend to forget that not everyone calibrates thier TV and people dont always look at or care about the numbers that everyone salivates over here.....I am just trying to give the viewpoint of the other side of the coin.......
post #257 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I gave up on HDJ based on their tyrannical approach to posts.

+1

To call a spade a spade.... The forum is basically a Panasonic launch site (there are other topics, but it's mostly Panasonic). I've had issues feeling I could express myself openly on the forum. I found some hostility when I mentioned anything that put Panasonic in a poor light. Even though what I was saying was 100% true and easily proven if you take the Panasonic horse blinders off. Granted I will admit some of what I post is sometimes taken a bit out of context usually due to me not being overly clear as to my point or rushing the post.

Funny enough the last person to argue with me on there... finally in a PM agreed what I was saying was of use... I've about given up posting most places; it's not worth the effort. If you do have a differing opinion with someone who's very vocal, ignorant or is out to prove themselves. You could be forum battling for hours... no thanks. Lurking is sooo much less work wink.gif


I do hope the rumors about the black levels of the ZT60 do prove to be true. But I also hope it doesn't come at a cost like it did in 2012.
Edited by SiGGy - 4/9/13 at 11:11am
post #258 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post


I do hope the rumors about the black levels of the ZT60 do prove to be true. But I also hope it doesn't come at a cost like it did in 2012.

SiGGy, can you clarify what you meant by 'at a cost'. Are you talking a monetary cost or something on the display engineering side?
post #259 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

SiGGy, can you clarify what you meant by 'at a cost'. Are you talking a monetary cost or something on the display engineering side?

I bet he means the pic looks a bit washed out? A lil lifeless?
post #260 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

SiGGy, can you clarify what you meant by 'at a cost'. Are you talking a monetary cost or something on the display engineering side?

^^ the post above mine covered it.

Video processing is how i might summarize it... Great blacks, but image suffered a bit.

some examples:
Flickering in all video modes but 60hz
dithered soft images (actual loss of details when the TV is fed certain signals)
different scanning speeds in darker areas of screen (You can see green (scan) lines in darker areas of the screen depending on material/motion)
...

It almost seems like they bypassed (this might explain the 50 series low latency) or left out parts of the video processor(s). Or they used very inexpensive ones? (This sorta gets back to your cost cutting; it could have been. Panasonic has had better processing in previous TVs). Perhaps they didn't have time to refine this model with the new drive system to keep the costs where they needed to be? And our the door it went.

The big issue of those mentioned...

The dithering/grain/softness will show up when you feed a compressed 720p signal to the TV. Or a slightly soft 1080i source, the TV will make it even softer. Also specific APLs using the aforementioned sources will also cause it.

Why? specifics? no clue. But the end result is the the TV has a hard time with sources/material that are under 1080p and the image isn't always very clean; it drops details. This is why I've been a bit of an advocate on adding dark/complex gradients/compressed video to the "shootouts". As well asking if they could perform color tracking in full 3D. (normal color tracking like now 25,50,75,100% saturation per RGBCYM, but also cover a range of APL say 5-60% in steps of 5%?). The measurements could be automated making it not a terrible exercise, but time consuming none the less.

I'm hoping in the last year they worked out some of these things smile.gif IMO this is also another example of why "blacks" are not the only measure of video quality. Some folks are just so fixated on "blacks" they miss the details wink.gif
Edited by SiGGy - 4/9/13 at 3:03pm
post #261 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

^^ the post above mine covered it.

Video processing is how i might summarize it... Great blacks, but image suffered a bit.

some examples:
Flickering in all video modes but 60hz
dithered soft images (actual loss of details when the TV is fed certain signals)
different scanning speeds in darker areas of screen (You can see green (scan) lines in darker areas of the screen depending on material/motion)
...

It almost seems like they bypassed (this might explain the 50 series low latency) or left out parts of the video processor(s). Or they used very inexpensive ones? (This sorta gets back to your cost cutting; it could have been. Panasonic has had better processing in previous TVs). Perhaps they didn't have time to refine this model with the new drive system to keep the costs where they needed to be? And our the door it went.

The big issue of those mentioned...

The dithering/grain/softness will show up when you feed a compressed 720p signal to the TV. Or a slightly soft 1080i source, the TV will make it even softer. Also specific APLs using the aforementioned sources will also cause it.

Why? specifics? no clue. But the end result is the the TV has a hard time with sources/material that are under 1080p and the image isn't always very clean; it drops details. This is why I've been a bit of an advocate on adding dark/complex gradients/compressed video to the "shootouts". As well asking if they could perform color tracking in full 3D. (normal color tracking like now 25,50,75,100% saturation per RGBCYM, but also cover a range of APL say 5-60% in steps of 5%?). The measurements could be automated making it not a terrible exercise, but time consuming none the less.

I'm hoping in the last year they worked out some of these things smile.gif IMO this is also another example of why "blacks" are not the only measure of video quality. Some folks are just so fixated on "blacks" they miss the details wink.gif

The video processor does seem to suck actually. It also has a hard time applying 3:2 pulldown automatically. For me and many of the other owners no big deal since we have video processors between the source and the tv that upscale to 1080p already, but for 'normal' people they should add video processor on their list for comparison biggrin.gif
post #262 of 1309
Did anybody go to the Panasonic event in NYC today ?
post #263 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Did anybody go to the Panasonic event in NYC today ?

The event is 6:30-8:30 PM EDT so if they did go they are probably still there and mobile device use may be restricted wink.gif
post #264 of 1309
Thread Starter 
About the video processing of tvs.

I never have trusted the video processing in TV's -- not even my Kuros. Ken has referred to the "mythology" created around the Kuro. Most will say it has the best processor ever. See below for a review of the display from 2009:

"The Pioneer’s upconversion of standard-definition 480i sources to the panel’s native 1080p resolution was average at best. It locked on to 3:2 pulldown (film-sourced material) on two of my three tests for this capability, but it consistently broke lock on the most challenging test. It showed visible artifacts on 2:2 (video-sourced material) tests and had severe jaggies on a mixed video-over-film scroll. While I saw occasional artifacts on some real-world 480i sources, they were frequent only when clearly present in the source itself. (The History International SD channel, a personal favorite, is particularly prone to jaggies on fast pans—on this and other sets.)"

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-kuro-pro-141fd-plasma-hd-monitor
post #265 of 1309
Whoever crowed about the superiority of the Kuro SD processing was very obviously looking at history through rose-tinted glasses. smile.gif

Onwards to the topic. ZT60 impressions here from today's event:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hands-on-with-the-65-panasonic-zt60-3d-plasma-the-end-of-an-era/

Some key observations/comments:
Quote:
If the Panasonic Viera ZT60 is to be the swan song for plasma, then at least the iron lady is going out on top. Rival manufacturer Samsung put the final nails (or did they?) in Panasonic’s coffin a few weeks ago with the launch of its F8500 3D plasma at a star-studded event, but after spending some time with both HDTVs, we’re not so sure that when the history is written, it’ll be the Korean panel that will be remembered most.
Quote:
Black levels were darn close; flip a coin and either panel would be at the top of any ratings list. The one area where the contest wasn’t close? Shadow detail. The ZT60 was dramatically better in that regard
Black level indistinguishable (the minimum hope those of us with upgraditis have had) and better shadow detail (we have to assume the Kuro was properly calibrated of course wink.gif).

BTW, Ph8, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, and I should have realized you were just playing devil's advocate (the devil being Karen down the boulevard biggrin.gif).
post #266 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Whoever crowed about the superiority of the Kuro SD processing was very obviously looking at history through rose-tinted glasses. smile.gif

Onwards to the topic. ZT60 impressions here from today's event:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hands-on-with-the-65-panasonic-zt60-3d-plasma-the-end-of-an-era/

Some key observations/comments:

Black level indistinguishable (the minimum hope those of us with upgraditis have had) and better shadow detail (we have to assume the Kuro was properly calibrated of course wink.gif).

BTW, Ph8, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, and I should have realized you were just playing devil's advocate (the devil being Karen down the boulevard biggrin.gif).

No insult was taken wink.gif

happy to see you are getting giddy about a set wink.gif lol hopefully when it leaves the controlled environment it still remains something that you can upgrade to smile.gif
post #267 of 1309
The ZT60 is going to be an amazing set it seems. Definitely better than the F8500 no doubt. Maby i should buy one since this looks to be Panasonics last.
post #268 of 1309
thanks for the article Vinnie. I'm also curious how the faster phosophors are going to translate as well.
post #269 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

The ZT60 is going to be an amazing set it seems. Definitely better than the F8500 no doubt. Maby i should buy one since this looks to be Panasonics last.
I think it's still a bit early to use phrases like "no doubt". That said, the ZT60 seems to be the TV to beat in 2013, unless the Samsung shines in a side-by-side comparison. Now it's just a matter of deciding if the 65" is too big...
post #270 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I think it's still a bit early to use phrases like "no doubt". That said, the ZT60 seems to be the TV to beat in 2013, unless the Samsung shines in a side-by-side comparison. Now it's just a matter of deciding if the 65" is too big...

Number one reason Tvs are returned, becasue people cose the smaller TV, always go with the biggest you can get\fit.....It may look huge at 1st, but you will soon get used to it and think how much bigger can I go wink.gif
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