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Inexpensive: <$2k - 4K TV about to enter US - Page 2

post #31 of 151
2/1/13 at 1:21am
I'd recommend that anyone that actually needs a 4K display under $2,000 wait until the method of input of 4K signals (be they QuadHD 3840x2160 or 4K 4096x2160) gets finalized with Display port 1.2 capable PCs or better HDMI support.

If not a display would have to up-convert everything and /or possible not allow input at 60HZ or be using 2-4 HDMI jacks or a strange multi DVI-D setup for some kinda of 4x1080p configuration.

That and just being 3840x2160 isn't going to help unless it is able to handle the UHD standard that is defined and accept ITU. REC .2020.

4K is slated to finally leverage the move to a larger color gamut than REC .709 and you wouldn't want the "EDTV" of 4K displays just becasue you jumped on the first "cheap" set to ship from china.

If the Sharp 32" IGZO based display is going to sell in Japan for $5500 ( http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/sharps-4k-igzo-lcd-monitors-eyes-on/ ) and that is going to mainly be a reference monitor used in 4K telecine or used for medical imaging, I think that consumer displays should be hitting the US by the end of the year and should have the finalized input methods for consumer use.

I personally would really hate to be such a early adopter to have gotten a 4K display , only to find out it won't handle native input or be obsolete within a year because I didn't wait for the standards to be in shipping units.

I think the Chinese models will eventually flood the markets just like there are thousands of android tablets around but I also would rather wait and get a display from a manufacturer that has a current stake in the market and will stand behind it. TCL or someone might eventually be recognized like a Samsung or a Sony but I don't want to be a breakout display companies test customer for the US market just because I saw their 4K display at Walmart... I'd at least need to see it at Costco to jump on one biggrin.gif
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post #32 of 151
2/1/13 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by undermined View Post

I'd recommend that anyone that actually needs a 4K display under $2,000 wait until the method of input of 4K signals (be they QuadHD 3840x2160 or 4K 4096x2160) gets finalized with Display port 1.2 capable PCs or better HDMI support.

If not a display would have to up-convert everything and /or possible not allow input at 60HZ or be using 2-4 HDMI jacks or a strange multi DVI-D setup for some kinda of 4x1080p configuration.

That and just being 3840x2160 isn't going to help unless it is able to handle the UHD standard that is defined and accept ITU. REC .2020.

4K is slated to finally leverage the move to a larger color gamut than REC .709 and you wouldn't want the "EDTV" of 4K displays just becasue you jumped on the first "cheap" set to ship from china.

If the Sharp 32" IGZO based display is going to sell in Japan for $5500 ( http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/sharps-4k-igzo-lcd-monitors-eyes-on/ ) and that is going to mainly be a reference monitor used in 4K telecine or used for medical imaging, I think that consumer displays should be hitting the US by the end of the year and should have the finalized input methods for consumer use.

I personally would really hate to be such a early adopter to have gotten a 4K display , only to find out it won't handle native input or be obsolete within a year because I didn't wait for the standards to be in shipping units.

I think the Chinese models will eventually flood the markets just like there are thousands of android tablets around but I also would rather wait and get a display from a manufacturer that has a current stake in the market and will stand behind it. TCL or someone might eventually be recognized like a Samsung or a Sony but I don't want to be a breakout display companies test customer for the US market just because I saw their 4K display at Walmart... I'd at least need to see it at Costco to jump on one biggrin.gif

For the price, you can either get a 4K set with flaws or a higher end 1080p set. The worst case is the 4K set ends up functionally like a 1080p set. It's worth the risk IMO.
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post #33 of 151
2/1/13 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

For the price, you can either get a 4K set with flaws or a higher end 1080p set. The worst case is the 4K set ends up functionally like a 1080p set. It's worth the risk IMO.

I agree.
  1. Our guessing machine is running in a circle at full blast as to what those flaws might even be.
  2. The low $2000 price point completely changes everything.
  3. As chronoptimist pointed out once, the upconverted 2K signal on a 4K display even using simple pixel replication is far cleaner than 2K on a native 1080p display can do anyway, because the in-between-pixel grid is much thinner.
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post #34 of 151
3/4/13 at 1:17pm
i believe this is the same chip that will come in 4K skyworth TV, model number 50E780U , sold to 1400$

see the picture



source: http://tech.china.com.cn/elec/xppc/20121031/342.shtml

some users of reduser.net try to order a few of them in 2012

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90463-Checking-interest-for-4k-Skyworth-LED-TV-Group-Buy&p=1111410#post1111410


there also other cheap 4k tv coming from hisense

http://hisense-usa.com/pr/pressreleases/HisenseXT880UHDTVCES2013InnovationsHonoree.pdf


Edited by canton160 - 3/4/13 at 1:24pm
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post #35 of 151
3/23/13 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That's pretty much standard. They will probably fail at 13 months. wink.gif

If it's sold at Costco I could care less then. It will come with 4-5 year warranty from CostCo and if I have any problems CostCo will come pick it up and credit me back in full. Bring it on. I personally wouldn't use it for my reference viewing but as a "Retina" display for the home office it would be killer. Goodbye Dell U3011.
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post #36 of 151
3/23/13 at 9:33am
If only I had a Costco membership, though that is a valuable perk.
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post #37 of 151
3/23/13 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyMc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

That's pretty much standard. They will probably fail at 13 months. wink.gif

If it's sold at Costco I could care less then. It will come with 4-5 year warranty from CostCo and if I have any problems CostCo will come pick it up and credit me back in full. Bring it on. I personally wouldn't use it for my reference viewing but as a "Retina" display for the home office it would be killer. Goodbye Dell U3011.

(?) If you purchase a TV from Costco, you still need to purchase a warranty----at least you do over here. It doesn't come with it. It's subtly different from the Square Trade warranty available from Amazon, but I don't see a 4-5 year warranty coming along with anything. Am I missing something?
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post #38 of 151
3/23/13 at 1:33pm
^Maybe he's referring to a more lenient time when Costco actually did accept TVs back over such a time period? I recall something like that but don't quote me on it.
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post #39 of 151
3/23/13 at 1:47pm
Current CostCo policy here is 90 day no question return and 2 year warranty standard on electronics.
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post #40 of 151
3/23/13 at 3:50pm
Costco sells a SquareTrade warranty that adds 3 years for $99. If you buy the TV there, it gives you 5 years total. If you buy the TV elsewhere and only get the warranty there, it gives you 4 years total.
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post #41 of 151
3/23/13 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Costco sells a SquareTrade warranty that adds 3 years for $99. If you buy the TV there, it gives you 5 years total. If you buy the TV elsewhere and only get the warranty there, it gives you 4 years total.

Yes, this was what I was referring to. $99 for an extra 3yr is just a no brainer. What I was referring to with taking it back is that if its still within the warranty (manufacturer or extended) and you have a problem that can't be easily resolved with manufacturer or warranty company that CostCo will step in. They may not publish this anyway but I've talked to Customer Service q number of times and things were resolved easily to my satisfaction. They understand the pain in typing to get larger items back to the store an happily arranged for someone to pick up from me at no cost to me.

CostCo is better than Nordstrom these days.
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post #42 of 151
3/25/13 at 3:44pm
As we all know or should know the american Auto industry underestimated the Japan cars 40 years ago at their own peril
other US industries did the same including our electronics industry ,our Ship building and other industries That is now historically viewed as arrogant,complacent and foolish .

The Japanese technology transfer to South Korea put them on the map with Autombiles Hyndai Kia ,Ships
and Electronics including Samsung and LG . Now we are in the middle of the largest technology transfer
in modern history to China From Japan,Korea , Europe and US why would the results be any different.
Our aircraft industry in time will have Asian competition like they do from Eads Airbus right now
Even the once mighty Japanese electronics industry is in decline and facing stiff competition from
So. Korea and China .
Edited by tubetwister - 3/25/13 at 4:06pm
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post #43 of 151
4/1/13 at 4:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

As we all know or should know the american Auto industry underestimated the Japan cars 40 years ago at their own peril
other US industries did the same including our electronics industry ,our Ship building and other industries That is now historically viewed as arrogant,complacent and foolish .

The Japanese technology transfer to South Korea put them on the map with Autombiles Hyndai Kia ,Ships
and Electronics including Samsung and LG . Now we are in the middle of the largest technology transfer
in modern history to China From Japan,Korea , Europe and US why would the results be any different.
Our aircraft industry in time will have Asian competition like they do from Eads Airbus right now
Even the once mighty Japanese electronics industry is in decline and facing stiff competition from
So. Korea and China .

Japan had low cost labor, and the small cars that the people of the USA didn't want until the man made gas crisis of OPEC. Go ask someone who's early Civic exploded in rust right after the waranty ran out about the japanese "Quality". Yes, US manufacturers fell behind, had more to do with Expensive Union labor then anything.

Japan's rise came from low wages and exchange rates kept low by the government of Japan. The exact same thing Korea did and China is doing.

Japan is in trouble for the same reason they took our manufacturing. I still don't understand why people want to bring back manual labor boring manufacturing jobs to the US.

Have you guys seen how an iPad is made? It's almost all boring manual labor. They can have those jobs..
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post #44 of 151
4/1/13 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Japan is in trouble for the same reason they took our manufacturing. I still don't understand why people want to bring back manual labor boring manufacturing jobs to the US.

You might be a little myopic in this regard. There are two issues unmentioned here:

  • Many people are unsuited for anything other than manual labor (they can usually change, but not immediately, and not now, and there will always be people like this even if only a transition phase)
  • The "boring" nature of the job isn't the bottom line to those people. It's the pay they can receive. If those jobs were $100,000 a year, then I guarantee not one of them will be switching because of boredom. Besides, in my lifetime I've known a ton of people in the high salary range bored out of their wits.

I'm not saying that we should adopt a "Manufacturing USA" model again---but it is far too complicated an equation to sum up with metrics like how "boring" something might be.

BTW: What is the name of this forum again? wink.gif
Edited by tgm1024 - 4/1/13 at 5:56am
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post #45 of 151
4/2/13 at 3:40am
Anybody tested this yet? Is it really available?

Seiki 50" Slim LED 4K Ultra-HD 120Hz HDTV w/ HDMI Cable & Two Year Extended Warranty >>$1,299.00
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post #46 of 151
4/2/13 at 5:10am
[quote name="coolscan" Is it really available?

Seiki 50" Slim LED 4K Ultra-HD 120Hz HDTV w/ HDMI Cable & Two Year Extended Warranty >>$1,299.00[/quote]



It must be available, they were selling it on Sunday. Couldn't get the video in the link to play. Had to get it by looking at the week in review option.

http://www.shopnbc.com/Seiki_50_Slim_LED_4K_Ultra_HD_120Hz_HDTV_w_HDMI_Cable_Two_Year_Extended_Warranty/437-325.aspx?storeid=1#videofrompg
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post #47 of 151
4/2/13 at 5:30am
"that tv would be 400% less good."

lmfao.

James
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post #48 of 151
4/3/13 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Anybody tested this yet? Is it really available?

Seiki 50" Slim LED 4K Ultra-HD 120Hz HDTV w/ HDMI Cable & Two Year Extended Warranty >>$1,299.00

Nice find on this. Still, with HDMI not being able to accept 4K2K @ 60Hz is a big turn off for me. The 50" screen size isn't enough either, at least in my opinion.

I do like the fact that they're including a 2 year warranty, and of course that all important $2 HDMI cable.
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post #49 of 151
4/3/13 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoozthatat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Anybody tested this yet? Is it really available?

Seiki 50" Slim LED 4K Ultra-HD 120Hz HDTV w/ HDMI Cable & Two Year Extended Warranty >>$1,299.00

Nice find on this. Still, with HDMI not being able to accept 4K2K @ 60Hz is a big turn off for me. The 50" screen size isn't enough either, at least in my opinion.

I do like the fact that they're including a 2 year warranty, and of course that all important $2 HDMI cable.

The way for a manufacturer to handle this is simply to put in a dedicated port that can handle such things and supply a conversion dongle converting this to whatever HDMI spec comes down the pike.

Is there a proposed HDMI standard that hasn't passed yet that they can implement in the meantime? Seems to me such things happen all the time prior to ratifications. The wireless 802.11 "Pre-N" routers come to mind.
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post #50 of 151
4/3/13 at 12:40pm
Aye, I believe I grabbed my first Pre-N router (an Asus) back in 2005. eek.gif MIMO antenna configuration to boost practical data rates was the main improvement on the hardware level, which they began to implement right away.
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post #51 of 151
4/3/13 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The way for a manufacturer to handle this is simply to put in a dedicated port that can handle such things and supply a conversion dongle converting this to whatever HDMI spec comes down the pike.

Is there a proposed HDMI standard that hasn't passed yet that they can implement in the meantime? Seems to me such things happen all the time prior to ratifications. The wireless 802.11 "Pre-N" routers come to mind.
The Toshiba's has a proprietary contact and a break-out box for HDMI connections. The Samsung's connectors are said to be modular where the input module can be upgraded when input standards change.
Would be strange if not more brands will have something like this.
Maybe the Chinese missed this important point?
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post #52 of 151
4/13/13 at 4:24am
Here's the first hands-on review I've seen, albeit not a super-thorough one.

I'm very seriously considering this set as a PC monitor. It's cheaper than the triple monitor setup I was on the verge of buying, but would give me about 1/3 more pixels without any bezels. I don't believe the 30Hz limit at 4k will be an issue for anything other than gaming, which I don't do a whole lot of anyway. Worst case, I could always run games at 1080p and get the full 120Hz. I don't think there are many video cards that will run current AAA games much past 30Hz at 4k anyway. My old GTX260 sure won't, and I doubt the GTX660 I'm planning to replace it with would either.

For most of what I do, 30Hz is sufficient. But it is a little infuriating that they couldn't spend the extra $2 to stick a displayport connector on there and get 60Hz.
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post #53 of 151
4/13/13 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

Here's the first hands-on review I've seen, albeit not a super-thorough one.

I'm very seriously considering this set as a PC monitor. It's cheaper than the triple monitor setup I was on the verge of buying, but would give me about 1/3 more pixels without any bezels. I don't believe the 30Hz limit at 4k will be an issue for anything other than gaming, which I don't do a whole lot of anyway. Worst case, I could always run games at 1080p and get the full 120Hz. I don't think there are many video cards that will run current AAA games much past 30Hz at 4k anyway. My old GTX260 sure won't, and I doubt the GTX660 I'm planning to replace it with would either.

For most of what I do, 30Hz is sufficient. But it is a little infuriating that they couldn't spend the extra $2 to stick a displayport connector on there and get 60Hz.

Unfortunately it seems this is not only a DisplayPort connector issue. There is something more which prevents the display of 4K@60Hz using single DisplayPort cable. This is evident from the fact that even the new professional 32"@4K IGZO monitor from Sharp does not support 4K@60Hz directly over single DisplayPort cable. As explained in another thread this monitor is able to display 4K@60Hz only by using Multi-Stream Transport mode which effectively means that monitor is tiled and each part is driven via separate cable. This mode is supported by AMD graphics adapters though apparently not applications run in it. In any case, display technology for 4K@60 Hz is immature yet as there is no way of driving display as single uniform display space using single cable. Reason for this could be that in fact there are yet no DisplayPort 1.2 receiver chips supporting 4K@60Hz.
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post #54 of 151
4/13/13 at 12:56pm
looks like this TV isn't any replacement for any high resolution monitors due to input limit to 30 hz
even panel can deliver 4k @60 Hz the TV electronics just can provide it.
for example HP 32" display required 2 input connections for 4k resolution due to specs limit for DVI that BTW almost the same for HDMI
There is no single consumer device I'm aware of that has 2 HDMI outputs.
Sure PC has 2+ DP or 2+ DVI to output such resolution, but nothing close to this can be transferred over current HDMI 1.x
I think that HDMI specs and implementation is current bottle neck for 4k @60Hz
after it will be sorted out AVR has to support it and TV as well

there is no question about newer HDMI or DP, but when?

as for me this 4k TV is useless as it can't deliver any better picture over 1080p sony xbr
but, it's 1st available 4k TV below $2k - so this is good start
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post #55 of 151
4/13/13 at 1:11pm
I still am not sure I understand why the hard-wired connection limitations even matter. I'm having a hard time even caring.

It's easily solvable (no?) even by the worst case scenario of

Source → Special Adapter A → Special Cable → Special Adapter B → TV

model where every thing in bold above is provided together by the TV manufacturer. Various versions of this could be made cheaply and be replaced as standards mature. For instance if HDMI 1.5+ shows up it might be then:

Source → Special HDMI to TV Port Adapter B → TV

Seriously, as stop-gaps go, this seems like a pretty harmless one. And as coolscan indicated, there are already a couple manufacturers doing things not too dissimilar to this.
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post #56 of 151
4/13/13 at 1:43pm
HDMI 2.0 specifications are supposed to be available by the end of this quarter. However, schedule has slipped before. 2.0 should support 4k at 60p. Don't know lead time before it will be available in market products. Guess is (if schedule is kept) you will see TVs etc. with 4k 60p capability by year end.
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post #57 of 151
4/13/13 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

HDMI 2.0 specifications are supposed to be available by the end of this quarter. However, schedule has slipped before. 2.0 should support 4k at 60p. Don't know lead time before it will be available in market products. Guess is (if schedule is kept) you will see TVs etc. with 4k 60p capability by year end.

Again, you mean with TV HDMI ports with 4K 2160p 60fps capability, not the TV. The TV's themselves? I still contend they can solve it now with a home-grown (or coupling, or or or) using the adapter method. All which get swapped out whenever the spec is finalized. BFD. {shrug}

Within the TV of course there is a relatively big demand hit on internal processing, but "eh". Can't imagine we're anywhere close to the edge there given the speed of today's systems.

It'd be borderline Rainman to produce a TV that doesn't support that bandwidth just because the HDMI spec currently can't handle it. Actually, he'd have it solved last year.
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post #58 of 151
4/13/13 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

Here's the first hands-on review I've seen, albeit not a super-thorough one.

I'm very seriously considering this set as a PC monitor. It's cheaper than the triple monitor setup I was on the verge of buying, but would give me about 1/3 more pixels without any bezels. I don't believe the 30Hz limit at 4k will be an issue for anything other than gaming, which I don't do a whole lot of anyway. Worst case, I could always run games at 1080p and get the full 120Hz. I don't think there are many video cards that will run current AAA games much past 30Hz at 4k anyway. My old GTX260 sure won't, and I doubt the GTX660 I'm planning to replace it with would either.

For most of what I do, 30Hz is sufficient. But it is a little infuriating that they couldn't spend the extra $2 to stick a displayport connector on there and get 60Hz.

30hz sucks for desktop use, you can try it on your current 1080p display if you don't believe me. They haven't used 30hz for computer monitors since the days of EGA, if even then. I don't remember ever owning a < 60hz tv or monitor.

This thread has convinced me not to upgrade my receiver until HDMI 2.0 is out and all the kinks are sorted out. Really, 4k /30hz passthrough is useless cruft for those of us who want their displays to be smoother than a circa 1920s era projector. Hopefully you can get the 60hz signal through, one way or the other. Having to use a second cable isn't the worst thing in the world. I'm really looking forward to a highly curved 4k projector screen that will literally put me in the center of the virtual worlds I create. Perhaps a variable, curvature DIY screen could be cool, but that assumes Ps4 games will support changing the projection matrix, which is highly doubtful.
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post #59 of 151
4/14/13 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post

30hz sucks for desktop use, you can try it on your current 1080p display if you don't believe me.

I tried to do just that, but apparently my current monitor (an older 26" viewsonic) doesn't support 30Hz. Either that or the nvidia drivers I'm using don't support it. The closest mode I can get to work is 1080i @ 29Hz, and that flickers like mad due to being interlaced and a non-native resolution. Not really a fair test.

I guess I'll just have to wait until Microcenter gets this (or some panel like this) in stock locally and check it out for myself.
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post #60 of 151
4/14/13 at 1:33pm
30Hz is just out of question for PC usage.
You can try to set your current output to 30 from 60 and move mouse around - that will give you idea right a way about will you be able to tolerate 30P or not.
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