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There's a new sheriff in town! Inuke DSP 12000 - Page 4

post #91 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

" maybe they take their "peak" power when its struck by lightning " LOL

I have had my share of lightning destroyed equipment. Believe me, Lightning does not make for working electronics.


Keep cranking,

Robert
post #92 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Besides being a different amp, do you consider -.5db at 10 hz to be an issue? I'd consider that proof of how good it is for the price, that iNuke 3000.
i agree with you. though if long term max output is important than one should stick with 8 ohm load only. I personally use mine in 4 ohm bridged without any problems but i almost never drive it to the full capacity.
post #93 of 355
Thread Starter 
zheka,

perhaps for extended sine wave testing - but for high volume music or movie watching in a home environment I've found 2ohm to be fine. My cap subs are 2ohm and I've run them on multiple amps at 2ohm stereo with nary a problem (except when I blew up my fan modded EP4000 tongue.gif) -- including about a year stint on the Inuke DSP 3000.
post #94 of 355
from someone who actually build amps, from someone who actually build class D amps;
it takes more than simply beefing up the power supply to make an amp stable into 2 ohm.
post #95 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Popalock told me at the Gorilla83 meet that he couldn't tell much if any difference between the inuke 6000 and his clone on his pair of LMS-5400.


Not sure if he ever measured them a/b or still feels the same way, but I didn't feel he was that excited about the clone when we talked when compared to the inuke 6000. I listened to his setup on the fixed clone a few weeks back and I can assure you it is not a marginal difference in power. biggrin.gif

At that time one of the channels of his Clone was broken (he bought it second hand). You can ask him to chime in now that it is fixed. biggrin.gif I listened to his setup a few weeks back since his amp has been fixed and I can assure you the difference is not marginal. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Funny thing is, both Andrew (Gorilla83) and Greg (HuskerOmaha) will defend the Sanway clone even though they had issues. So at least they are enjoying it and who am I to tell you what to love. Just from the outside, looking in, I think you are crazy.

True story:
I was friends with a guy in Highland IL who was stabbed in the leg with a butcher knife by his girlfriend in a argument. He kept her. When he came limping into work after getting hospital stitches, the rest of us coworkers were like...um. lose her and find a new girl who won't stab you in the leg when she's mad. He was like no, I love her man. MAYBE, Gorilla83 and HuskerOmaha are just like that old coworker.

I ain't mad at ya
Got nothing but love for ya
Do your thing boy

Honestly if there was an alternative available now that will give me 3000-4000 watts of clean, full bandwidth power per channel at 4 ohms that was available from a US seller for a REASONABLE price (under 2000 or so) I would buy it in a second. I'm simply willing to accept the risk these amps pose when the value is so high to guys like me or Husker who need a ton of clean power to drive a slew of sealed subs with no compromise in extension or low end power.

For the record - my amp was working just fine until one of my banana plugs on a sub came loose and shorted the leads together. The amp did it's job and went into protection mode - the trouble is it's stuck there. biggrin.gif I have to say the guys at Sanway are typically really good in helping troubleshoot the issue and provide replacement parts. Anyone looking for these types of amps should be well aware of the risk and/or be of the 'DIY' mindset if/when repairs are needed. When you're getting the majority of functionality (albeit a few less features) of a 6500 dollar amp for less than 1000 dollars you've got to be willing to deal with some uncertainty. Sure, it's not for everyone but even having to deal with this 'problem' now I'm not regretting my decision. It sure is nice to have a backup amp though, even if it's a bit less powerful.
post #96 of 355
I totally get what Gorilla is saying. From 4 ohms on up, the clone offers a bit more than 2X the power of the iNuke, assuming it comes close to LG spec. In real-world terms, that's over 6db increase in total output since it translates into being able to double-up on drivers. Therefore it makes sense if one LG channel = 2 iNuke 6000 channels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

At that time one of the channels of his Clone was broken (he bought it second hand). You can ask him to chime in now that it is fixed. biggrin.gif I listened to his setup a few weeks back since his amp has been fixed and I can assure you the difference is not marginal. tongue.gif
Honestly if there was an alternative available now that will give me 3000-4000 watts of clean, full bandwidth power per channel at 4 ohms that was available from a US seller for a REASONABLE price (under 2000 or so) I would buy it in a second.

My guess is that Behringer engineered this 'expansion' into the iNuke design, the same way auto makers use the same platform for different models ranging from economy to luxury. Like I said before, it works for Crown and it's hard to imagine Behringer's goal isn't economy of scale as well - and that means having some sort of universal foundation for the whole series. We'll have our answers soon enough, I hope.

Of course your point is well understood by the fans of the clone, since they are not 2 ohm stable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

from someone who actually build amps, from someone who actually build class D amps;
it takes more than simply beefing up the power supply to make an amp stable into 2 ohm.

Edited by imagic - 1/31/13 at 5:52am
post #97 of 355
I'm still kicking myself for not buying another XLS5000 last year when they were CHEAP. I was just thinking I could run 2 of those amps, each at 4 ohm bridged. 10,000 watts of power on tap, 5000 to each channel would definitely get the job done. They do roll off at 7hz, which is only 1hz higher than my signal chain rolloff anyway.

Anyone have an XLS5K they want to sell? I could always buy a CV5K but I really would like them to match.
post #98 of 355
If your going to be using any amp pretty hard I'd avoid fan mods. I don't use the fan mod on our pair of ep4000s ever since I flogged them and could feel the heat difference.

I'd pick a LG clone over the inuke; more low end balls.
post #99 of 355
I have a remote location for my sub amps with 2 dedicated lines so fan modding not needed.

I won't pass any judgement on the 12k until they are released. If they test out decently and have little to no rolloff, I would pick up one or two to try out.

Question: How efficient are the inuke amps?
post #100 of 355
Right around 85%


iNuke 6000 1/8 power rating = 620 watts (from the wall)

620w x 8 = 4960 watts

RMS is listed at 2100 watts/channel = 4200 watts

4200 divided by 4960 = .846

So, based on their 'real' specs we have approximately 85% efficiency which is consistent with a pure class D design. It's possible it reaches 90% efficiency when running around 1/3 to 1/2 power - that's typically the case with SMPS-based devices and anecdotally matches up with my experience which is that it puts out no heat until it gets close to maximum power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I have a remote location for my sub amps with 2 dedicated lines so fan modding not needed.

I won't pass any judgement on the 12k until they are released. If they test out decently and have little to no rolloff, I would pick up one or two to try out.

Question: How efficient are the inuke amps?

Edited by imagic - 1/31/13 at 9:04am
post #101 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Popalock told me at the Gorilla83 meet that he couldn't tell much if any difference between the inuke 6000 and his clone on his pair of LMS-5400.

Not sure if he ever measured them a/b or still feels the same way, but I didn't feel he was that excited about the clone when we talked when compared to the inuke 6000.

Well, let me clarify. Playing at low/moderate listening levels I strongly felt as though the "power is power" concept applied. Having no other experience with pro amps, my only reference point was a faulty Clone. Going from a faulty Clone to a brand new iNuke was essentially a lateral move.

Bad Clone: 4,400watts x 1 LMS-U
vs.
iNuke: 1,800ish watts x 2 LMS-U's

So, I gained 3db for doubling my drivers with the iNuke, but lost 3db for feeding them half of what one would get from a Clone.

Now, going from an iNuke6000 to a fully functioning Clone was absolutely night and day… It really gave me a renewed sense that the LMS-U's were a stellar purchase.
post #102 of 355
Thread Starter 
How many watts do you feed those LMS-5400 subs on a regular basis - how much are they happy with?
post #103 of 355
Quote:
I ain't mad at ya
Got nothing but love for ya
Do your thing boy

Boom Chish Chish, yea we was once two brothers of the same kind....
post #104 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

How many watts do you feed those LMS-5400 subs on a regular basis - how much are they happy with?

You're right... you're right.

I'm not at full tilt very often. I would say that the iNuke6000 would be adequate (all other external factors considered) to play a pair of LMS-U's at reference levels without any real notable issues... I can't hate on the product at all, because it is very good for what it is. Hope I'm not coming off that way!

But C'mon man! I get that wild hair at least two or three times a week when I just feel like a cutting loose!

I just hope they addressed the measured roll-off of the iNuke6000 before in the iNuke 12000 is released.

Here are a few direct blurbs from the link for those too lazy to click:
Quote:
The low frequency square wave (110Hz) shows gentle sloping due to the high-pass filter at sub 10Hz. You can see a slight transient at the start because this is for an 8 Ohm load. To see more detail we go to a 5kHz square wave

The same forum thread referenced 33% duty cycle testing about half way down the first page. You know what… I'll go ahead and post this, for those too lazy to click:
Quote:
Now changing to 31Hz, the NU6000 now manages 1.16kW into 8 Ohms with one or both channels driven. The traces below are for 2 channels driven and the current is now at 50A/division!
NU600031Hzburst8Ohms_zps8db52ec2.jpg

At 4 Ohms with 1 channel driven we get 2.05kW:
NU600031Hzburst4Ohms1CH_zpse19b3983.jpg

And at 4 Ohms both channels driven we get 1.80kW:
NU600031Hzburst4Ohms2CH_zps86d59034.jpg


To summarise, for music signals, both channels driven, you can expect an output of:

Behringer:
1.37kW into 8 Ohms, 2.05kW into 4 Ohms for full-range or mid-top duty
1.16kW into 8 Ohms, 1.80kW into 4 Ohms for Bass duty

With that said, anyone expecting to use the iNuke6000 for bass duty and expect to get the full 2,200watts will be shorted a bit.

In regards to the iNuke 12000. I would be happy with 3,600watts per channel and based on the measurements above, that seems achievable and feasible. However, the notable signal roll down at "my" favorite part of the frequency spectrum does raise minor concern (for me). But hey, they made the amp 2 ohm stable, so maybe other improvements were made as well. Someone is going to have to bench this hoss when it hits the shelves!

*Edited to remove inaccurate data not pertaining to the iNuke.
Edited by popalock - 1/31/13 at 4:38pm
post #105 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Boom Chish Chish, yea we was once two brothers of the same kind....

Quick to holla at a hoochie with the same line...

That's the jam son! Might jam out to that one with all 8,800 watts when I get home!
post #106 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by auburnu008 View Post

It won't be anywhere close to $999 street price.

Exactly. It is not hard to find iNuke3K/6K for 40% off MSRP if you look for it.
post #107 of 355
I've got no issue with the typical Berry inflated peak numbers, as long as an amp is robust and relatively linear, under load, down into the deep.

If they got it together and put out such a warranted product, w/DSP ... for those so inclined, it would be nice. I'm sure they're trying .... damn we're so spoiled these days ... aren't we? eek.gif
post #108 of 355
Yeah really.

2012 and 2013 are good years for we DIY'ers too.
post #109 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I just hope they addressed the measured roll-off of the iNuke6000 before in the iNuke 12000 is released.

Here are a few direct blurbs from the link for those too lazy to click:
Quote:
The response is pretty much load independent with a -3dB point at 39kHz. Since a high-pass filter option was included I measured it also and you can see it produces a second-order roll-off with -3dV at 33Hz, handy to protect speakers if you're not using an LMS.

The low frequency square wave (110Hz) shows gentle sloping due to the high-pass filter at sub 10Hz. You can see a slight transient at the start because this is for an 8 Ohm load. To see more detail we go to a 5kHz square wave
dude, that measured response that shows -3db at 33Hz is for the KAM KXD7200.


the NU6000 have a measured -3db at ~9Hz, load independent.


the high frequency portion change with load like that because the feedback correction is taken before the output filter/inductor. reason being, most of the design like this have a single, fixed switching frequency that won't change with input music. amps like the kxd that have their feedback correction taken after the filter, which usually have a variable switching frequency. the real lab gruppen is supposed to have the same design.

you guys should try and stop hating behringer a bit. it affects your judgement.
post #110 of 355
-3dB @ 9hz on the iNuke6000?

That's ..... that's actually not that bad. For most people that's still plenty of useful output/extension.

I'm past that though at this point. Right now that would work fine with my LLT's but I'm about to go 100% sealed and shooting for flat to 5hz with a -3dB point no higher.
post #111 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

dude, that measured response that shows -3db at 33Hz is for the KAM KXD7200.

Good catch. That's what I get for starting that post in the morning and not being able to finish it until this afternoon.

I corrected my post to clear up the mis-communication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

you guys should try and stop hating behringer a bit. it affects your judgement.

No hatin here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

-3dB @ 9hz on the iNuke6000?

That's ..... that's actually not that bad. For most people that's still plenty of useful output/extension.

I'm past that though at this point. Right now that would work fine with my LLT's but I'm about to go 100% sealed and shooting for flat to 5hz with a -3dB point no higher.

+1
post #112 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DIGITAL AMPS OR SMPS for that matter ...

What was the Panasonic XR series then?
And isn't this Texas Instruments setup all digital? The TAS50xx series.
post #113 of 355
The super-stiff LMS-U suspension takes some power to overcome, right? and with the poor little iNuke that means not as much power to 'get things done' once it is moving. The iNuke actually only has 40% the power of the clone, based on these numbers. It might only have 1/3 the 'usable' power, after overcoming mechanical resistance. It's like RAM on a computer, you can only access what's left after the overhead. I'm wondering, how many watts does the suspension on those things eat up? Free air, how many watts before it starts moving for the low stuff?
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Well, let me clarify. Playing at low/moderate listening levels I strongly felt as though the "power is power" concept applied. Having no other experience with pro amps, my only reference point was a faulty Clone. Going from a faulty Clone to a brand new iNuke was essentially a lateral move.

Bad Clone: 4,400watts x 1 LMS-U
vs.
iNuke: 1,800ish watts x 2 LMS-U's

So, I gained 3db for doubling my drivers with the iNuke,but lost 3db for feeding them half of what one would get from a Clone.

Now, going from an iNuke6000 to a fully functioning Clone was absolutely night and day…
It really gave me a renewed sense that the LMS-U's were a stellar purchase.

Edited by imagic - 2/1/13 at 9:44am
post #114 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The iNuke actually only has 40% the power of the clone, based on these numbers. It might only have 1/3 the 'usable' power, after overcoming mechanical resistance.

The clone has to overcome that resistance as well, and also not sure why you single out stiffness, as it's account for in the T-S parameters and modeling programs.
post #115 of 355
Imagic,
The 68 lb LMS motor laughs at the suspension which is really not that tight anyway. That's part of the reason some have been oil canned. The coil is still going full force past the point that the surround is tight and the mechanical clearance is gone. It's a middle of the road compliance. It is actually an efficient bass driver compared to most too.
post #116 of 355
So consider me an amp dummy. Would it be difficult for Berry to make whatever changes in components to accomplish a less-steep roll off in power? Also adding the ability to set the HPF lower using the already built in DSP? I have built MRI boards and head coils and know that the cost of your typical surface mount components are extremely cheap. I wonder what, if any, is the motivation in not including the full spectrum in the iNuke series.

Chris
post #117 of 355
Some potential good news - Diamonddelts over at CHT forums inquired about the new 12K amp via Behringer's facebook page. He asked if they power ratings would be the same as the 6000 at 8 and 4 ohm, to which they replied:

"The 12,000 version has actually two 6000 units inside. So it has double the power. There seems to be an error with the specs. Thanks for highlighting."

If this is true and there are actually two bridged 6000 units inside, that would be pretty awesome.
post #118 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Some potential good news - Diamonddelts over at CHT forums inquired about the new 12K amp via Behringer's facebook page. He asked if they power ratings would be the same as the 6000 at 8 and 4 ohm, to which they replied:

"The 12,000 version has actually two 6000 units inside. So it has double the power. There seems to be an error with the specs. Thanks for highlighting."

If this is true and there are actually two bridged 6000 units inside, that would be pretty awesome.

The 6000 is not stable at 2 ohms... Soooo?

By "error with specs" are they implying that the iNuke 12000 will deliver it's power @ 4 ohm stereo vs. 2 ohm?

That's kind of a big deal...
post #119 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

By "error with specs" are they implying that the iNuke 12000 will deliver it's power @ 4 ohm stereo vs. 2 ohm?

That's kind of a big deal...

I'm not sure what they meant by that, hopefully they will clarify. We also asked about an ECD for this thing to come out. We shall see. cool.gif
post #120 of 355
Wow good catch there. I'm definitely interested in the answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I'm not sure what they meant by that, hopefully they will clarify. We also asked about an ECD for this thing to come out. We shall see. cool.gif
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