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New build from scratch help.

post #1 of 26
1/28/13 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
I have 2 lots in Calgary, with the one I am living on in such a popular area I don't want to just sell, and build a full lot width house on my other lot I bought for a longer-term living. The lot I will develop will be an infill duplex and since I need at least 6 months for tax-free, and probably at least a year and a half to build other, will be here for around 2 years so decided it is time to start living instead of always waiting for the 'perfect' house to do right so will be doing this one to something I want.

Here is the basement layout. Blue are speakers, green touchpads, red TV's or projector.


Same thing for first floor:



and second floor:

Starting in the basement.
I will have a 24u wall mounted cabinet in the furnace room with control/network equipment.

For sources I have:
- 2 x cable boxes
- 1 x c-300 popcorn hour
- 1 Qnap NAS
- 1 x Ps3
- will probably have a wall mounted touchscreen somewhere in basement attached to a computer running a jukebox to play music videos I have collected (old 80's retro stuff).

Network:
- D-link dir-655 switch
- Cable modem
- cable phone box
- Cisco managed switch (24 port - may get a 48 port)


In an area of the wet bar shelving I will have the stereo equipment to run the audio in the theater area.
Have:
- EAD Powermaster 1000 (5ch)
- Parasound Halo (2ch)
- Ps3i
- Pioneer BDP-05FD BR
- Lexicon MC-12
- Tice power conditioner

For Audio zones I will have the media room as one, and the arcade as one (2 total in basement)

For Video zones I will have the arcade as 1 zone (2 tv's the same). the tv behind the bar as 1 zone, and the main screen for a total of 3 basement video zones.

Green boxes are where I think the audio touchscreens can go.
Main floor.

- 2 audio zones, 1 video zone.

Green boxes are where I think the audio touchscreens can go.
Second Floor

- 2 x audio zones.
- 1 x video zone in master bedroom.
- I have 2 more zones n the smaller bedrooms, but I think I will only run 1 more zone into the smaller bedroom as I will make that my office. I will wire for the second bedroom, but we probably will not want our 4yr old to dwell in his room watching tv so won't hook it up.
Green boxes are where I think the audio touchscreens can go.

So total will be 6 audio zones, and 6 video zones.


I therefore have quaestions on opinions on the equipment to drive the setup. I am not overly interested in having the lights automated and things like that. I do think the doorbell mute and some common-sense things could be integrated, but not going to do the ultimate smart-home... just want to run mainly what I have listed.

For the audio I want to have a system with dedicated wall touchpads so I can quickly turn things down, off...etc. I am not too interested in finding an Ipad, starting the ap.. waiting to load.. then turning it down sort of thing. If I can run from an App great.. will save me getting out of chair to change music, but like the idea of a dedicated pad. I have a Sonus play5 so like the interface, but am concerned with the cost of a full Sonos, plus the lack of a dedicated pad. BUT, I am also wondering about Russound/Nuvo if the pads bog down with a large playlist..etc.. Never thought about that but read a thread where a guy who had Russound stated it did thru Ipod (I don't have an Ipod), so may have been the pod bogging.. who knows..MAINLY I can picture us listenening to XM radio, with our CD collection I ripped to the NAS second.

I am Thinking Russound MDK-C5 touchpads, and MCA-C3. I believe with this I can use the main controller to run the audio portion from the Pioneer DVD in the media room thru the Russound, out to the MC-12? Or would main controller run MC-12?(and not ever go thru Russound?)
I really like the Nuvo touchpads with the album cover..etc.. But I just cannot justify paying more than an Ipad for one (HOWEVER.. I could cut down keypads to one per level and perhaps go that route..). Plus, I really am not sure how much use audio will get overall.. the Sonos was a great toy for the first 2 weeks.. but have probably not played it in a couple months. I am hoping with integrated that will change though..

For video matrix I am thinking the Shinybow HDBaseT SB-5688LCM-CT.
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/sb-5688lcm-ct.html#axzz2JJl4vFNg


To control it all I am thinking so far Control4. But basically it will for the most part if I get a separate audio distribution setup like Russound be used for running the video matrix. Is there any other solution? It seems ilke a bit of a waste for so little use.. I am also unsure of what unit from them I would get? Would the hc-250 be good enough, or would I need the HC-800?

Locally and on Ebay there is a ton of Crestron stuff... especially the Adagio which 'seems' targetted at more the DIY'er?? My electrician was pushing a guy who installs HAI stuff. but that system seems far to complicated for a DIY'er as far as hardware. Not sure if there are other good options beside control4.

I have been a GC/project manager for years, and before that was a level3 systems analyst for the Justice Department so I want something I can set up myself. I really don't want to be calling in someone anytime I change something.. I guess that is why the Russound/Control4 route seems to be the easiest.. but if anyone else has any advice, or a better combo of things, I would be grateful.
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post #2 of 26
1/29/13 at 12:52pm
System looks pretty good overall. I wrote out a much larger reply but when I hit reply the forum went down for maintenance and I didn't save a copy, so here's some quick comments:

HDMI can be very finicky and if I were putting an 8x8 matrix in my own house I would stick with something I know both works well, and works well with Control4. Unless you personally know someone who has one of those, trust me, it's not worth the head ache. Have you looked at any of the stuff from Atlona and/or Just Add Power?

Control4 is not a DIY platform, although I highly recommend it as a control system you'll definitely need a dealer if that's what you want.

You'll need an HC800 for your project as well as a new router.

If you do end up going with Control4, is there any reason you wouldn't put their audio system in?

What part of the city are you building in? ( I live in Calgary too )
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post #3 of 26
1/30/13 at 12:34pm
Thread Starter 
Hate when that happens.. Most of the times I do a ctrl-c before hitting submit just in case.. but still get caught sometimes..frustrating.

Anyways,
I picked the Shinybow because at that website the cost for the hdBaseT is great.. WAY below the costs elsewhere for the same box for some reason. Atlona I had looked at before at a non-hdbaset model. All seem far too expensive really for a simple house like mine and if I could do it cheaper I would.. It's hard for me to justify these prices when I could use the $$ to buy a nice LCOS JVC projector for instance instead.. if I could get away with something else... But I want a clean look without boxes all over the house. I even looked at just going component matrix which would be fine but I couldn't find one that had IR from multiple sources. I'm not stuck on the Shinybow by far, but I don't have an unlimited budget and even $3200 just seems like a lot for just a switch.. and if there was a cheaper route that would be great. I have never looked at justaddpower and will have to check into it. I had even looked at a version of going to 2 smaller 4x4 matrix units from monoprice and having the basement on it's own setup (since I have 2x cable boxes, and 2x ps3's.. cheaper to buy more sources than the bloody matrixes!), and the main/second floor on it's own matrix as well to keep cost down for now. Have to run more wire but the cost was a fraction of the other ones.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011310&p_id=8151&seq=1&format=2
I can always upgrade later after I'm not carrying a mil and sell the one half.

- Why a new router? My switch is a non-managed right now but I will be going to managed since the next NAS I want uses the dual nic lines.

- I looked at the control 4 audio, but I like the idea of a dedicated wall pad like the Russound/Nuvo has.. quick and easy to access, plus if you want to use tablet/phone you can. The full Russound system with wall pads is around the same cost as 'just' the control4 amp alone.... then add in the controller and any pads for control4 and it's quickly double.

But this is why I am not sure if the control4 is overkill. I really only need it to mainly control the video matrix if I went with a Russound/Nuvo for audio.. Really if I wanted to go the poor mans route, I could probably get the Russound/Nuvo, then a pair of the monoprice matrix boxes and a couple more remotes and not even need a main controller I would think? I could upgrade down the road when more liquid if something was bugging me and it wasn't working well...

Also, I'm not sure overall though how the theater would get wired in completely... I guess I could wire it normally like I have it now as a standalone, then run an input from the Russound into a different input/zone on the MC-12 if I wanted to run music through the theater speakers and select on the mc-12 manually... I guess I would have to do the same for the cable box to run tv through the theater if ufc or something was on. It's not necessary that the mc-12 be controlled by a controller somewhere since it will be accessible in the bar area and I would be fine manually running it or via it's own remote for volume..etc.

I am in Marda Loop/Altadore. My other lot is up on the hill in Montgomery.. that one will be a completely different build down the road.
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post #4 of 26
1/31/13 at 9:23pm
With an HDMI Matrix it's not the switch that costs money, it's the proper management of EDID that you pay for. I design these systems for a living and have hands on experience with a few different HDMI matrix systems including the Atlona 8x8 HDBaseT as well as the Monoprice 4x4. The difference is so day and night between the switches it's shocking, you really do get what you pay for when it comes to HDMI matrix switches. I found the monoprice unit very frustrating, it's definitely not something I would sell to one of my clients.

What exactly do you mean about not being able to find a component switch that has IR from multiple sources? You shouldn't have to worry about IR at all, just make sure any new equipment you buy can be controlled by Control4 via IP or serial. If you need anything else to be controlled via IR, Control4 can do that for you too.

You'll want a new router because these automation and multi room audio systems are very very picky when it comes to networking. The router you have just won't cut it for a system like what you want, most likely you'll run into random issues like streaming media cutting out and overall stability and lag issues.

With regards to the audio portion, I guess it just depends on what kind of quality you're looking for. The Russound has considerably less power than the Control4 amp, there's a HUGE difference in sound quality even at regular listening volumes.
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post #5 of 26
1/31/13 at 9:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tester007 View Post

I even looked at just going component matrix which would be fine but I couldn't find one that had IR from multiple sources.

http://www.atonhome.com/HDR44.html
Quote:
But this is why I am not sure if the control4 is overkill. I really only need it to mainly control the video matrix if I went with a Russound/Nuvo for audio.. Really if I wanted to go the poor mans route, I could probably get the Russound/Nuvo, then a pair of the monoprice matrix boxes and a couple more remotes and not even need a main controller I would think? I could upgrade down the road when more liquid if something was bugging me and it wasn't working well...

I went that route, with the Aton component video matrix and NuVo audio. I didn't see the need to integrate the video and audio systems together from a control standpoint. With IR routing handled through the matrix, video sources are controlled just as you'd expect - by pointing a remote at the TV.

I pipe the audio from my set-top boxes to the NuVo system, so that the audio-only zones can listen to the TV audio, too. Use that feature daily to listen to the morning news in the bathroom, and in the game room for sporting events (ahem, going to get a workout this weekend!).
Quote:
Also, I'm not sure overall though how the theater would get wired in completely... I guess I could wire it normally like I have it now as a standalone, then run an input from the Russound into a different input/zone on the MC-12 if I wanted to run music through the theater speakers and select on the mc-12 manually... I guess I would have to do the same for the cable box to run tv through the theater if ufc or something was on. It's not necessary that the mc-12 be controlled by a controller somewhere since it will be accessible in the bar area and I would be fine manually running it or via it's own remote for volume..etc.

My theater is wired into the house video matrix, but has its own local sources as well. Limits of component video mean you'll want a local BD player for the best audio/video quality, but yes, for UFC nights, the matrix provides DirecTV video to my theater as yet another video zone.


Jeff
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post #6 of 26
2/1/13 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tictactoe2004 View Post

With an HDMI Matrix it's not the switch that costs money, it's the proper management of EDID that you pay for. I design these systems for a living and have hands on experience with a few different HDMI matrix systems including the Atlona 8x8 HDBaseT as well as the Monoprice 4x4. The difference is so day and night between the switches it's shocking, you really do get what you pay for when it comes to HDMI matrix switches. I found the monoprice unit very frustrating, it's definitely not something I would sell to one of my clients..
I'm sure there are switching differences for sure... But I can upgrade as well and holding off a year or so might see a significant price drop. Looked at the JAP stuff. Cost seems to be over what the Shinybow solution would be by a fair amount, but great idea doing it the way they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tictactoe2004 View Post

What exactly do you mean about not being able to find a component switch that has IR from multiple sources? You shouldn't have to worry about IR at all, just make sure any new equipment you buy can be controlled by Control4 via IP or serial. If you need anything else to be controlled via IR, Control4 can do that for you too...
Well I thought it worked this way; you have a TV in a second floor bedroom with an IR sensor on it... You use the remote and the signal goes down to the matrix via an IR sensor on the TV, to the balun, down the cat5 to the matrix, which switches to the source so audio and everything is routed that way. I guess that's why I was wondering about the need for a main processor if you are just using it for video switching? All the hdbaset and cat5 switchers I have seen have IR in for every output so I assumed this is how that worked.. I just looked at the back pictures of a bunch of component units and didn't see any that had the inputs for IR. They seemed mainly for a Bar-type setup that an operator was standing in front of the matrix changing inputs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tictactoe2004 View Post

You'll want a new router because these automation and multi room audio systems are very very picky when it comes to networking. The router you have just won't cut it for a system like what you want, most likely you'll run into random issues like streaming media cutting out and overall stability and lag issues.

With regards to the audio portion, I guess it just depends on what kind of quality you're looking for. The Russound has considerably less power than the Control4 amp, there's a HUGE difference in sound quality even at regular listening volumes.

Right now I have the Shaw cablemodem (had it neutered and set up strictly as a modem with no router functionality) which runs to my dir-655. That router runs to a Cisco 24 port switch. None of my internal traffice runs through the router other than internet. Currently I can stream 3 signals of the NAS (Q-nap) to a pair of TV's and Ipad for instance (only 3 of us in house so have not gone beyond that really) and it is fine. I have ripped some blu-ray stuff and it also runs well. Qnap doesn't seem to be breaking a sweat. BUT, I will be going to a managed L2 switch (cisco) for this and a faster Qnap or Synology NAS in the 5-8 bay range. Wireless is presently over an Asus RT-N56u.

Well as far as audio quality, that's something I can chase to the end of time.. in the end I think it's like car audio, that the point of $'s/diminishing returns hits fast and I can only expect so much from ceiling speakers..I don't expect to be running any sort of audio I sit back in a chair and close my eyes to really... I don't have high expectations. I have considered not putting in the living room speakers (probably still will for resale), and just making the built-in around the fireplace have a big enough area for a pair of B&W's or Martin Logans, then have an amp and cd/dac separate from the entire system just for that area. The theater area will also be fairly isolated, or at least able to run independent of any whole-home-audio setup and has some pretty good stuff to play anything I may want to listen to and have sound good. But if these other companies had an intermediate keypad solution, I would consider them.. I just cannot get over 6-900 for an lcd keypad 1/500th the tech of a tablet, or having to use a tablet to run an app to control it. I still would like dedicated keypads, and Russound just seems the most reasonable. My experience with Sonus was it sounded far better than I thought and the play5, app was great, but I have not used it in months. I have a feeling the audio will be something I 'will' use, but it will be a 'glad it's there' thing for get togethers or parties rather than on all the time.
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post #7 of 26
2/1/13 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

http://www.atonhome.com/HDR44.html
I went that route, with the Aton component video matrix and NuVo audio. I didn't see the need to integrate the video and audio systems together from a control standpoint. With IR routing handled through the matrix, video sources are controlled just as you'd expect - by pointing a remote at the TV.

I pipe the audio from my set-top boxes to the NuVo system, so that the audio-only zones can listen to the TV audio, too. Use that feature daily to listen to the morning news in the bathroom, and in the game room for sporting events (ahem, going to get a workout this weekend!).
My theater is wired into the house video matrix, but has its own local sources as well. Limits of component video mean you'll want a local BD player for the best audio/video quality, but yes, for UFC nights, the matrix provides DirecTV video to my theater as yet another video zone.


Jeff

I'll check into that unit but it still looks around $1200 and would need 2 of them.. I'll do a price comparison to other routes.. but the baluns on everything else sure add up, and this unit doesn't look to need power in wall, and has a nice finish plate as well...BUT, going HDMI means I should be able to route audio through the matrix as well I would think..hmmm

Thanks for clarifying the non-controller route.. It would be nice to see on TV, but it's an expensive way to just have that..and if I wire in advance, I 'could' add it down the road but I don't really see beyond that what I would gain with such a small system, and not using all of control4's components like tictac is suggesting.. so in your setup then I assume your remote has custom labelling on it for sources? A remote for each TV location that only runs that particular output? If I can skip a controller, I could possibly look at Nuvo/lcd keypads.... You have a Nuvo, does it automatically get the cover images and data online? Or do you need to set that up?
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post #8 of 26
2/1/13 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tester007 View Post

I'll check into that unit but it still looks around $1200 and would need 2 of them.. I'll do a price comparison to other routes.. but the baluns on everything else sure add up, and this unit doesn't look to need power in wall, and has a nice finish plate as well...BUT, going HDMI means I should be able to route audio through the matrix as well I would think..hmmm

See my review thread... biggrin.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1146188/aton-hdr44-hd-over-cat5-a-quick-review

Street price is less than that for the "kit" which includes everything for a 4x4. I have three of them now. It routes both digital and analog audio, so the only device that is limited would be Blu-ray (or servers with BD content). For my primary viewing locations, there's a local BD player anyway, since going upstairs to the closet to put a disc in would be stupid anyway...
Quote:
So in your setup then I assume your remote has custom labelling on it for sources? A remote for each TV location that only runs that particular output?

Yes, although my remotes aren't too fancy. The nice thing about the in-system IR control is that the remotes are NOT room specific. I have a bunch of identical remotes with identical programming. They work on all the sources accessible from the matrix, and work automatically with whatever zone they're in (because the codes are not zone-specific, since the IR receivers know what output they're serving).
Quote:
If I can skip a controller, I could possibly look at Nuvo/lcd keypads.... You have a Nuvo, does it automatically get the cover images and data online? Or do you need to set that up?

Cover art comes from the files, so if they're populated by iTunes / Windows Media Player, they'll show up. I don't have any of the color touchpad units, just the OLED keypads, but the cover art shows up on the iOS apps.

Jeff
Edited by jautor - 2/1/13 at 10:46am
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post #9 of 26
2/1/13 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post


Cover art comes from the files, so if they're populated by iTunes / Windows Media Player, they'll show up. I don't have any of the color touchpad units, just the OLED keypads, but the cover art shows up on the iOS apps.

Jeff

Not sure how you mean thru WMP.... I have a couple hundred CD's I rippped to my NAS. When I ripped, the software showed 10-20 covers while the cd was ripping that you could chose from so each folder has an image called "folder.jpg" to match the album cover.. would that work as-is?
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post #10 of 26
2/1/13 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tester007 View Post

Not sure how you mean thru WMP.... I have a couple hundred CD's I rippped to my NAS. When I ripped, the software showed 10-20 covers while the cd was ripping that you could chose from so each folder has an image called "folder.jpg" to match the album cover.. would that work as-is?

Yes, the NuVo MPS4e Elite server will pull files from a NAS - the non-Elite MPS4 will only pull from the local hard drive, but stuff ripped by WMP or iTunes can be "synched" to the server, and so whatever those applications created should work automatically...
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post #11 of 26
2/2/13 at 4:45pm
Thread Starter 
I have everything ripped as lossless FLAC. Will this work?

If I got the grand kit w/keypads, what else would I need to be able to run an XM/Sirius account, internet radio, and the Nas (w/FLAC files)? Too bad a Sonos conect couldn't be used and controlled via Nuvo.. $399 vs what looks like thousands in Nuvo.. (but I am not 100% sure what I would need totally)
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post #12 of 26
2/2/13 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tester007 View Post

I have everything ripped as lossless FLAC. Will this work?

If I got the grand kit w/keypads, what else would I need to be able to run an XM/Sirius account, internet radio, and the Nas (w/FLAC files)? Too bad a Sonos conect couldn't be used and controlled via Nuvo.. $399 vs what looks like thousands in Nuvo.. (but I am not 100% sure what I would need totally)

You're in the same boat I am... You have to have one of the music servers. You will need the MPS4 Elite to be able to use your NAS, but that's an expensive piece, and you may not need it based on my next statement.

I'm using the earlier PC-based software-only NuVo MusicPort, if you're using a PC for your NAS storage, you might see about picking one of those up used on eBay (they come up infrequently). Not as stable as the servers (and a discontinued product), but cheaper...

Neither the MPS4 or the Elite support FLAC nor Apple lossless (unless something has changed). But here's what I have done. I have everything in my library as lossless (currently Apple Lossless since I'm using Apple Remote / iTunes / Airport Express for the main listening area). I've used one of the shareware library managers (I think dbPowerAmp) to do a bulk conversion of the library to a moderate-bitrate (160-192k) MP3 of the whole library to make it available to the NuVo system. Since that's used for background music, no issues with lack of lossless. And the downconversion copy of the library is only ~100-200GB. The same utilities can be used to update your library as you add titles. There's a PC-based sync tool to copy stuff to the NuVo server.

EDIT: The MPS4 and Elite manual mentions FLAC support explicitly...


So given that, depending on the size of your library, you may be able to fit easily within the MPS4's internal drive. Also, having a subset of your main library of "just" the stuff you'd want to use for whole house audio can make it easier to navigate - especially on the keypads.

Now, back to the Sonos competition - the NEW NuVo wireless systems do support FLAC and NAS storage, but have no keypad support. I've been pleading with the NuVo folks to please, please, please build a device to attach the P3100 to the Grand Concerto so the keypads work with it. It would be the same box, minus the amplifiers, with a NuVoNet connection and enough firmware to drive the whole thing. If they release the specs for talking to the P3100 over the network, I'll write that code for them!

Jeff
Edited by jautor - 2/10/13 at 6:37pm
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post #13 of 26
2/2/13 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
Ya that 3100 looks like it would work.. $1500 vs $3500.. I think if I had to go to a mps4 elite just to be able to hook up a paid xm account, and run an expensive NAS, then it would be a dealbreaker. I was swaying towards Nuvo, but not sure now. I think if it gets too high I would rather spend the money on a new projector sort of thing.. I have all my cd's on a Qnap NAS and It took weeks to rip them all. I will be upgrading the nas to a rackmount version 5-8 bay Synology or Qnap since I really do do a lot of video over the house thing mainly (far more than music) so I will be staying this format.. access over internet, personal cloud.. won't be changing the NAS. I was stressing over a grand to upgrade the NAS box so $3500 for so little is out of the question for me. $1500 is borderline for something that just co-ordinates sources basically. I doubt they would kill their revenue stream from the other setups by allowing keypad access because they might as well kill the MPS4 line then. Could use ipods in wall.. Hmmm.. have to look at some options here maybe back at Russound.
thnx
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post #14 of 26
2/2/13 at 7:20pm
Thread Starter 
So if I went Nuvo, I would need at a min:
Grand package - $4200
mps4 elite - $3500
= $7700 before speakers..etc.

or

Grand package - $4200
3100 - $1500
= $5700 before speakers..etc. and have to run the sources off a tablet/phone, but control volume..etc.. still from keypad (but not see any data I would assume)

or if I went C4,

C4-16AMP3-B - $2500 (amp/matrix)
C4-TUN2-E-B - $600 (tuner)
hc-800 - $1000 (controller)
5" touchscree ($700 x 3) - $2100
or site license ($500) + 5 ipad mini in walls- $1600

total - $5700 - $6200


Seems the control 4 package is actually one of the cheapest routes, for better audio...and controls what I have/want... am I missing something? I get a controller out of it that can run a vid matrix if I'm not missing anything.. (I know there would be a lot of extras.. but all 3 would so want a comparison of the main pieces) The 3 pad wall units for control 4.. are they basically volume up/down, and off?
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post #15 of 26
2/2/13 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tester007 View Post

I have all my cd's on a Qnap NAS and It took weeks to rip them all.

What I was suggesting was that you can use a utility to batch-convert your existing rip library to another format. I find having the 'compressed' copy is also handy for copying to mobile devices (since the FLAC / lossless files take up a lot of space, relatively speaking). My library took a day or two to convert the first time, but I didn't have to be there - it was one giant batch operation, and the utilities will skip anything that's already been done, so you can interrupt the process if needed...
Quote:
I doubt they would kill their revenue stream from the other setups by allowing keypad access because they might as well kill the MPS4 line then.

As you're proving, they'd be better off getting $1500-2000 from you instead of zero... They need to kill the MPS4 and replace it with a consistent product line (both in feature set and in price). I've told them directly that if they took the P3100, cut out the amps, added NuVoNet for keypad support, they could sell it for $2000 (up from $1500, even though it will probably cost less to produce), and I'd give them my credit card today.

Jeff
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post #16 of 26
2/3/13 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tester007 View Post

So if I went Nuvo, I would need at a min:
Grand package - $4200
mps4 elite - $3500
= $7700 before speakers..etc.

or

Grand package - $4200
3100 - $1500
= $5700 before speakers..etc. and have to run the sources off a tablet/phone, but control volume..etc.. still from keypad (but not see any data I would assume)

or if I went C4,

C4-16AMP3-B - $2500 (amp/matrix)
C4-TUN2-E-B - $600 (tuner)
hc-800 - $1000 (controller)
5" touchscree ($700 x 3) - $2100
or site license ($500) + 5 ipad mini in walls- $1600

total - $5700 - $6200


Seems the control 4 package is actually one of the cheapest routes, for better audio...and controls what I have/want... am I missing something? I get a controller out of it that can run a vid matrix if I'm not missing anything.. (I know there would be a lot of extras.. but all 3 would so want a comparison of the main pieces) The 3 pad wall units for control 4.. are they basically volume up/down, and off?

Are you able to get C4 for that price? You should also get a UPS and as I mentioned before, you'll want a new router.
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post #17 of 26
2/4/13 at 10:08am
Thread Starter 
C4-16AMP3-B @ ABT
C4-TUN2-E-B @ ABT
hc-800 @ inhome automation
5" screen @ same
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post #18 of 26
2/4/13 at 10:15am
Tester, don't forget that C4 is dealer install only. You're not going to be able to purchase that equipment from Abt without them installing it, as far as I know. And even if you can, you still need to pay someone else to install it. There is no way for you to install C4 on your own. Nor can you change C4 once it is installed. You'll need to call the installer for that, too.

NuVo, Sonos and the many others can be / are DIY. The added cost of installation is missing from your cost breakdown.
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post #19 of 26
2/4/13 at 10:27am
Ah, I see. By the time you add shipping and duty pricing will be around the same as what you'd find locally. Have you been working with a local Control4 dealer yet? I don't want to step on anyones toes, but if you haven't I'd be happy work with you on the project. I've built quite a few systems very similar to yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramin View Post

Tester, don't forget that C4 is dealer install only. You're not going to be able to purchase that equipment from Abt without them installing it, as far as I know. And even if you can, you still need to pay someone else to install it. There is no way for you to install C4 on your own. Nor can you change C4 once it is installed. You'll need to call the installer for that, too.

NuVo, Sonos and the many others can be / are DIY. The added cost of installation is missing from your cost breakdown.

They do have a home edition version of the software that can do almost everything, except for adding new hardware or editing the way existing hardware is wired. But he is correct, dealer installation is required which is why I asked smile.gif
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post #20 of 26
2/4/13 at 11:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramin View Post

Tester, don't forget that C4 is dealer install only. You're not going to be able to purchase that equipment from Abt without them installing it, as far as I know. And even if you can, you still need to pay someone else to install it. There is no way for you to install C4 on your own. Nor can you change C4 once it is installed. You'll need to call the installer for that, too.

NuVo, Sonos and the many others can be / are DIY. The added cost of installation is missing from your cost breakdown.

Sonos couldn't work for this though from what I understand? From the point of view of 2 or 3 different sources being played at once?
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post #21 of 26
2/4/13 at 11:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tictactoe2004 View Post

Ah, I see. By the time you add shipping and duty pricing will be around the same as what you'd find locally. Have you been working with a local Control4 dealer yet? I don't want to step on anyones toes, but if you haven't I'd be happy work with you on the project. I've built quite a few systems very similar to yours.
They do have a home edition version of the software that can do almost everything, except for adding new hardware or editing the way existing hardware is wired. But he is correct, dealer installation is required which is why I asked smile.gif

No not really.. I went to K&W 6 or so months back which is how I heard about control4. I stop by there every now and then and chat about things since I have bought from them a few times before and find them very informative. They showed similar setups and were around the 10-12 grand range for me estimated very ball parkish, but I cannot recall if we even discussed vid switching.

My situation is as you know this area is extremely hot right now (well has been for last 5-6 years at least) for tearing down and putting up high-end duplex infills. But because the houses are in the 900-2mil range, doesn't mean I am in that realm.. I just happen to have lucked out buying here 14 years ago. I have a budget for the build not including any of this (will be on my savings dime), and basically have to build 2 houses at once so my costs are huge. I'm not rich, so I have to be cost considerate of this, or else I will end up with a pre-wired house, but no equipment and am back to watching my life pass by waiting for the next place to start to live a bit. So I don't want to offend any installers talking DIY.. I really don't and certainly value the service.. I would much rather pay someone and forget, but I am not really in that boat right now whcih is why that angle is frustratingly playing over my desire to have the 'best' of everything.. Also, I am a PMP, have been a site manager/super as well as well as tendering, managing commercial builds like banks..etc.. Prior to that I was a level3 systems analyst for Albetra Justice managing their back end network so I know I 'should' be able to handle a fair amount of this from pulling the wire, to setting it up and programming it (I think). But, if most is dealer only, I might be forced into a certain direction reguardless of that.. like HAI. But it's irritating everything has it's plusses and minuses.. HAI seems very DIY friendly, but the interface looks like @ss and I don't think handles video. The audio section seems to leave a lot to be desired, but maybe I can bypass some into a better quality amplifier... I dunno.. starting to get a headache lol!

Anyways, I appreciate the offer and if things were different, I would talk to you for sure but I don't want you to be wasting your time. I know what I value mine at, and am sure you are the same so like to be up front.
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post #22 of 26
2/4/13 at 12:41pm
Tester, the most important thing is pre-wiring. Worry about the equipment later on. Just make sure you run enough Coax, Cat5e/6 and speaker wire. When in doubt, run more.

For comparison, I was able to take a $15k C4 quote and get it down to about $5k for DIY. There are certain parts where you can skim some off the top. Do you really need a $1500 custom A/V rack or will a $750 rack get it done? Do you need $500 speakers or will the $150 speakers be sufficient? And you definitely won't need the $4-5k in programming and installation costs. And there are ways to avoid sales tax.

My system will have pieces of equipment from Monoprice, Denon, Cisco, Nuvo or Russound or Sonos, and more. And for control, I'll be going with iRule. iRule uses IP to control everything. If your device doesn't have IP control (most TVs for example), you can get IP to IR or IP to Serial converters that will allow you to control those other devices. You should take a look at their website.
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post #23 of 26
2/4/13 at 5:55pm
Gramin, you've acquired a large amount of knowledge in the past 6 months. Do you think everyone is going to put in the same amount of time that you have? That's why installers charge so much - knowledge.
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post #24 of 26
2/10/13 at 6:38pm
Looking at the MPS4 / Elite manuals I see they mention FLAC support specifically. I don't recall seeing that originally, perhaps it was added later. The manual is dated 2010, though, so it's not like it happened yesterday. Neurorad, can you verify that FLAC support is really there - that makes things more interesting...

Jeff
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post #25 of 26
2/11/13 at 3:11am
I'll have to try it. I'm still dragging my feet on the re-ripping. I ran into some hurdles, and moved that project to the back burner.
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post #26 of 26
2/11/13 at 6:12am
Quote:
Gramin, you've acquired a large amount of knowledge in the past 6 months. Do you think everyone is going to put in the same amount of time that you have? That's why installers charge so much - knowledge.

Completely agree. Not everyone will. But I bet most posters here are most likely interested in the DIY angle. Otherwise, they'd go hire a professional integrator, as I almost did.


Quote:
Sonos couldn't work for this though from what I understand? From the point of view of 2 or 3 different sources being played at once?

Each Sonos unit is its own zone able to stream its own source. So if you have 5 Sonos Connect Amps, you can stream 5 seperate sources. Or, you can stream 2 separate sources to the 5 units. Or they can all play the same thing (and at different volumes).
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