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Where to start?

post #1 of 25
1/29/13 at 2:26pm
Thread Starter 
Complete newbie to calibrating a TV. I don't have any equipment just an interest in doing it for myself, family and friends. Where do I start? I would be willing to drop a grand on getting set up but don't even know what matters and the whole thing is overwehlming. Any ideas on where to start, what to read, what matters, etc would be great.
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post #2 of 25
1/29/13 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcojames View Post

Complete newbie to calibrating a TV. I don't have any equipment just an interest in doing it for myself, family and friends. Where do I start? I would be willing to drop a grand on getting set up but don't even know what matters and the whole thing is overwehlming. Any ideas on where to start, what to read, what matters, etc would be great.

I'd start off just doing the basics.

Get a disc like spears and munsil or DVE. Try to follow through doing a manual calibration, with just optical patterns.

Getting the hang of just setting brightness, contrast, color and tint is a big start on what calibration is about, and the entry cost is pretty low.

If you still want to proceed after that, then you'll want to get your hands on some kind of color analyzer and software.

There are free options for software and there are pay options. The pay options have much more flexibility and will do a much better job of walking you through what you need to be doing. I'm personally quite fond of CalMAN, but that's likely just because I'm in charge of developing it for SpectraCal.
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post #3 of 25
1/29/13 at 2:53pm
Greetings

Options

1. DIY ... go buy the software and the hardware and look for articles that teach you how to do this.
2. Hire a professional to calibrate your display and make sure he is one that also educates. He can teach a lot in the 4-5 hours he is there. He won't do your friends and family though.

3. Third option is to buy the DIY'er gear and software ... Save the 100's of hours of research time by getting real video calibration training (not free)

Cost of DIYer path is $400 or so with the two pay software options. But you can do other TVs in your house too and friends and family and retweak as much as you want. (Albeit with less accurate gear)

A pro calibration of the set will run $400 to $550 depending on what you ask them to do. But they do it with way better gear and experience has to be worth something.

What is the cost of your time worth?

Is the goal to have a calibrated TV sooner rather than a lot later?

Is the end goal to have a calibrated TV or actually to learn the entire process of calibration?

regards
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post #4 of 25
1/30/13 at 11:54am
Thread Starter 
Goal - Learn something new.

Side Effects - Calibrated TVs sooner or later.

So, if I am willing to throw a thousand bucks into this am I better to just buy great gear and read alot, or not great gear and take the video course?
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post #5 of 25
1/30/13 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcojames View Post

Goal - Learn something new.

Side Effects - Calibrated TVs sooner or later.

So, if I am willing to throw a thousand bucks into this am I better to just buy great gear and read alot, or not great gear and take the video course?

That's a question you'll have to answer for yourself. The best gear in the hands of an amateur (by knowledge, not profession) won't get you a good calibration, but the most well versed professional would struggle if given substandard equipment.

So you'll need both knowledge and good equipment to get the best results. To get the knowledge, paid training is absolutely the fastest method, but if you are good at self education there are plentiful free resources, but finding the correct resources and educating yourself can be very time consuming.

Luckily these days, equipment is getting better so even entry level stuff should give good results.
Edited by sotti - 1/30/13 at 12:10pm
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post #6 of 25
1/30/13 at 12:16pm
Greetings

Considering that Video Calibration Training Videos will cost you all of $150 ... and you can watch them as many times as you want until it sinks in ... (The cost of quality training is not the most expensive thing in this hobby)

It's back to the cost of your time .... versus money.

A Color Munki is $400 ... and add software to that ... gets you to the $600 price point ...

How do you define great gear? My Jeti costs $12000 ... that's "great" gear ... only from a certain point of view. (Not so great compared to a $40000 Minolta CS2000) My i1pro costs $1000 ... most professional calibrators use that ... which is great compared to stuff that costs less ... maybe. A Color Munki Photo at $400 has similar performance to the i1pro ... in the right hands.


Regards
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post #7 of 25
1/30/13 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcojames View Post

Complete newbie to calibrating a TV. I don't have any equipment just an interest in doing it for myself, family and friends. Where do I start? I would be willing to drop a grand on getting set up but don't even know what matters and the whole thing is overwehlming. Any ideas on where to start, what to read, what matters, etc would be great.

time time time must be put in...

As far as meters, I always recommend a i1Pro Spectrometer, even a used i1Pro Rev D ($250-$450) is great, ColorMunki Spectro (as mentioned above) is my 2nd choice

Why a Spectro, see why here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

And Read this Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449310/eye-one-pro-or-display-3-pro

I would start/stick to using discs for your patterns (AVS HD 709, GCD others here on this forum) with your player to start with.. I think it's important to learn which patterns you need when.. down the road, you can save up and add something like the iScan Duo which can be used as a pattern generator or an Accupel 5000 (or maybe even pick up a used Accupel previous generation) if you want to automate your patterns.

If you want to jump start it, take Michael's advice above about the online video training that he has produced/made available.. but... don't make the mistake and think your learning stops there..it's never ending. wink.gif
Quote:
My Jeti costs $12000

are you quoting a retail price or why did you pay that much, the 1211 can be had for less than that last time I checked by a few thousand $$ biggrin.gif
Edited by turbe - 1/30/13 at 1:44pm
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post #8 of 25
1/30/13 at 2:17pm
Greetings

Retail ... of course. Five finger discount makes it free ... biggrin.gif

regards
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post #9 of 25
1/30/13 at 2:44pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the time guys, I know it is really basic.

Sotti, I have used discs like that before, but I am hoping there is more science to it than "my eyes say this looks right", mainly because I don't trust my judgement.

I will take a closer look at all the links provided, thanks. I am guessing the i1 Pro vs Munki preferences discussed above come down to a colorimeter vs spectrometer debate?
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post #10 of 25
1/30/13 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcojames View Post

Sotti, I have used discs like that before, but I am hoping there is more science to it than "my eyes say this looks right", mainly because I don't trust my judgement.

Books, and books, and books of science.

The "art" part of calibration is only due to limited controls and the subjective nature of compromise.

With enough control all the targets can be calculated and the colors quantified, adjusted and validated.
Edited by sotti - 1/30/13 at 3:21pm
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post #11 of 25
1/30/13 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcojames View Post

I am guessing the i1 Pro vs Munki preferences discussed above come down to a colorimeter vs spectrometer debate?

No.. both are Spectros (though there is a ColorMunki colorimeter model, stay away from that one).. my reference to the ColorMunki is the for the Spectro models

my first recommendation is a i1Pro Rev D. (even used) or i1Pro2 (replaced the i1Pro Rev D.) - Spectro
my second recommendation is the ColorMunki Spectro (i.e. ColorMunki Photo) - Spectro

If I had a choice between a used i1Pro Rev D. for $400 (they sell for $250-$450) or a new ColorMunki Spectro $400 - I'd go for the i1Pro Rev D.

Between the two, the ColorMunki Spectro can be awkward for mounting but doable... (Rayjr designed a tripod mount for it as well). Not a big deal if you are profiling a colorimeter to it.

Check out this thread about the ColorMunki: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1215746/colormunki-how-good-or-how-bad/60#post_18023662


the i1Pros are still used by many Professional Calibrators.

Please do check out those links in post #7 above..
Edited by turbe - 1/30/13 at 3:19pm
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post #12 of 25
2/2/13 at 8:34am
Thread Starter 
Well let's see if i have this right...

Big preferences out there for a Spectro over a colorimeter. Mostly due to accuracy and accuracy over time as filters degrade.

Spectros available in the consumer realm the iPro 2 and Color Munki (new), possibly a used iPro Rev D as well. The knock on the color munki is using it for TV calibration can be clunky as it wasnt designed for it. The IPro seems to have strong support.

Lots or arguments for the iD3 (a colorimter?) in conjunction with the iPro.

One thing I don't know is the know on the spectro's. Is it lack of accuracy at low light levels or just slow readings? Slow doesn't bother me.
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post #13 of 25
2/2/13 at 8:58am
In general, colorimeters can have better low light sensitivity and can report faster..

Even with a Photo Research PR-670, I know a Calibrator that doesn't trust the results much lower than 20%, he uses other tools down low

save me some key strokes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV 
Greetings


We tend to trust the i1pro down to about 20% ... but not lower. Human eyes then come in to compensate for the weakness of the probe in that area.


We can see red and green errors faster than the probes can at low light conditions. And we are forgiving on blue errors ... just harder to see.


Worrying about errors that are beyond human perception is kind of a waste of time. No instrument is perfect. When an imperfect instrument tells you that you are perfect ... are you? If you think you are ... then there is another problem.



Regards

Are we perfect? smile.gif
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post #14 of 25
2/2/13 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
I just don't trust my eyes yet so unerstanding what I need to learn to evaluate is part of this whole thing. The calibrater who doesn't use his PR-670 at low levels uses "other" tools. Did you mean his eyes? Do you mean a colorimeter that has been profiled to the PR-670, his eyes, something else entirely?
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post #15 of 25
2/2/13 at 4:18pm
that info was not disclosed to me.. and since this was from a telephone conversation and not a public post.. I'd like to keep it at that...

I did find it interesting.
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post #16 of 25
2/2/13 at 5:01pm
Well, I'll tell you the Jeti is rock solid down there; extremely consistent and no unusual traits at the extreme bottom end compared to the C6.
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post #17 of 25
2/4/13 at 8:28am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the continued input, and sorry if my question was out of line, it wasnt meant that way.

How about this article?

http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/XriteDisplayCalibrationDevices.pdf

This says to me that I should at most be considering a D3 Pro? Maybe add a spectra like the iPro 2 later, that way if I do keep doing this I have both meters and I can use the iPro to update the tables for the colorimeter. I wouldn't see myself ever needing/wanting to spend thousands on meters so the combination of the two would be the most I could ever see myself buying. It seems like good entry plan to me, what do you guys think?
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post #18 of 25
2/4/13 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcojames View Post

This says to me that I should at most be considering a D3 Pro? Maybe add a spectra like the iPro 2 later, that way if I do keep doing this I have both meters and I can use the iPro to update the tables for the colorimeter. I wouldn't see myself ever needing/wanting to spend thousands on meters so the combination of the two would be the most I could ever see myself buying. It seems like good entry plan to me, what do you guys think?

That is good balance between cost and accuracy. Getting a spectro first would be more expensive, but more accurate, if you were only going to have 1 meter and you needed it to be as accurate as possible than an i1Pro would be the better choice.

But the 2 meter combo with profiling is great perfomance and value compared to how much you'd spend on a meter that could outperform the pair.

And if absolute accuracy isn't your #1 priority (say cost is #1), then starting with a i1D3 is a very good choice.
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post #19 of 25
2/4/13 at 10:31am
Greetings

If cost is #1 priority ... how about buying a C3 instead? biggrin.gif

regards
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post #20 of 25
2/4/13 at 10:41am
When I started out calibration,with Calman 3, I found the step by set, how to and what everything means to be helpful and at the same time it was hands on. Of-course Calman has come a long way and now offers a very good Calman 5.1 Beta autocal (at least with the 3D LUT Cube work flow) there is not much point in buying a how to disc.

Save your money get Calman 5 (at-least Control) a used I1Pro D version and a i1 Display Pro (OEM).

For those that want the best Get a Lumagen Mini 3D and Calman 5 Enthusiast, use the auto 3D LUT Cube workflow (125 point Gamut, 21 point Gamma/Grayscale). This type of calibration no pro calibrator will be able to beat or come close to, doing a normal ISF calibration (6 point Gamut, 10 point Gamma/Grayscale.

btw, Calman is not the only game in town, but its the only one I have experience with.

ss
Edited by sillysally - 2/4/13 at 10:47am
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post #21 of 25
2/4/13 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

If cost is #1 priority ... how about buying a C3 instead? biggrin.gif

regards

Well the C3 has exposed filters versus the i1D3 with it's sealed optics. So the durability of the i1D3 is going to be a bit better, it also has a diffuser, optics and a tripod mount which makes it usable for projectors where the C3 isn't designed for reading projection display.

That said it is a great meter for the money.
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post #22 of 25
2/5/13 at 6:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I'd start off just doing the basics.

Get a disc like spears and munsil or DVE. Try to follow through doing a manual calibration, with just optical patterns.

Getting the hang of just setting brightness, contrast, color and tint is a big start on what calibration is about, and the entry cost is pretty low.

If you still want to proceed after that, then you'll want to get your hands on some kind of color analyzer and software.

There are free options for software and there are pay options. The pay options have much more flexibility and will do a much better job of walking you through what you need to be doing. I'm personally quite fond of CalMAN, but that's likely just because I'm in charge of developing it for SpectraCal.

all the guys over in my owners thread are talking about how they are adjusting their settings to make the tv look better. lots of pop and punch being talked about, but I really don't know where to start. this thread caught my eye because I need to know where to start.

Sotti, what are the options on discs? Anything other than the spears and nmunsil? Any pros or ocons of different discs?
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post #23 of 25
2/5/13 at 7:58am
I think for absolute noobs, try the Disney WOW.. you may be able to rent DVE on netflix

You can try this AVS HD 709 (free,, just burn to a DVD) it has the patterns to do the very basics without an meter and if you add one in the future, you will be able to use that disc for calibration.

AVS HD 709 download , info and manual here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

I would hold of on Spears and Munsil, their new Edition is coming out in a couple months, may be good for beginning and advance wink.gif
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post #24 of 25
2/5/13 at 8:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I think for absolute noobs, try the Disney WOW.. you may be able to rent DVE on netflix

You can try this AVS HD 709 (free,, just burn to a DVD) it has the patterns to do the very basics without an meter and if you add one in the future, you will be able to use that disc for calibration.

AVS HD 709 download , info and manual here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

I would hold of on Spears and Munsil, their new Edition is coming out in a couple months, may be good for beginning and advance wink.gif

Any news on the new edition of S&M ? thanks turbe wink.gif
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post #25 of 25
2/8/13 at 3:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by realzven View Post

Any news on the new edition of S&M ? thanks turbe wink.gif

I've heard the new disc would be out by end of April.
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