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How much will I miss if I "only" go down to 25Hz? - Page 3

post #61 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There's the rub, and why getting yourself all wet after looking at a chart that shows a lot of content below 15Hz on a DVD doesn't make a lot of sense. If you did manage a 125dB output at 3Hz you'd do structural damage to your house. Really. Guys using my THTs, which don't go nearly that low, have not only cracked drywall, they've cracked concrete foundations.eek.gif
That chart is actually optimistic. To know the actual sensitivity you need speakers or headphones capable of reaching those levels with very low THD specs, otherwise the results are corrupted because the tester is hearing harmonics, not the fundamental. Speakers/phones with that capability are extremely rare.

While I have no problem with the words "foundation" or "concrete" or even "cracked," I'm not particularly of fond how those words are put together to form a sentence.

No disrespect at all to your design Bill, but unless your THT is designed to jump up and down off of the floor, your customer needs to sue his home builder for not letting that $hit cure properly...
post #62 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

While I have no problem with the words "foundation" or "concrete" or even "cracked," I'm not particularly of fond how those words are put together to form a sentence.

No disrespect at all to your design Bill, but unless your THT is designed to jump up and down off of the floor, your customer needs to sue his home builder for not letting that $hit cure properly...

lulz. Word.
post #63 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

So is one man taking down an entire army, so should we cut out 1/2 of Hollywoods latest releases? wink.gif
Is there any logic you demonstrate any time soon here?
post #64 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Is there any logic you demonstrate any time soon here?

Is there hooked on phonics book you read soon here? rolleyes.gif

You are the one who has shown a complete lack of logic. You defend not needing a driver capable of producing sub 25hz material as it is just "stylized" information feeding our subconscious. The sounds are fake so there is no need for them. My analogy is; so is most of Hollywood's material, so we must not need that either. If you used some street sense you would see my quip in response to your statement that just because information may not follow a real life scenario, doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. Your argument holds no water with most things we watch and listen to.

Once again, the quest for most of us here is to reproduce what the director intended from the original source. If that source is full of stylized subconscious information, then that is how I want it produced in my HT. Does a fell beasts wings produce the low frequency sound in real life that it does in the movie? I don't know, never heard it; but anyone who doesn't have a sub capable of producing sub 25 hz material can't appreciate what that sounds/feels like.
post #65 of 114
I got a HSU VTF-15H. I like it. It goes boom boom!
post #66 of 114
When an enthusiast strives for the cleanest high end from his mains he's called an audiophile but when someone seeks the same result on the low end he's a "bass head" nutjob who spends "tons" of money and needs a nuclear power plant to juice his insane rig to 125dB at 3 Hz. rolleyes.gif

For frame of reference, the SW out comprises 5-1/2 octaves (3-120 Hz). Lopping it off at 25 Hz reduces that bandwidth to 2-1/4 octaves, or to less than 1/2. I wonder who would be taken seriously if he suggested lopping off the high end at 4000 Hz, citing examples of source %s, hearing curve BS, etc?

Regarding "all effects are fake", that's not exactly correct. Although effects are created (after all, how would one mic a dragon spewing fire?), they are created using very real sounds. Randy Thom on sound design for How To Train Your Dragon:
Quote:
Randy: The Toothless voice has some horse elements, whale elements and tiger elements in addition to vocalizations and breaths that Al and I did. The big cat stuff was useful for the aggressive Toothless; and the horses, whales, and human stuff was the “softer,” more sympathetic side of the character. Al, what about the “plasma gun”?

Some of the results of that particular work:





If you filter at 25 Hz, what are you missing? Technically, the simple answer is; more than 1/2 of the presentation of the summed low end of all channels of the soundtrack (the SW output).

Regarding these endless (and by now, one would think they would just be unanimously dismissed to the point where they might only be presented as a question and not an authoritative edict) Equal Loudness Curves references, Craig John gets it right (as he usually does). Infrasonics are not in the sonic range, so why are there so many who suggest the need to be able to so grossly distort the presentation as to make them equally audible with 1000 Hz? This is an irrelevant subject that needs to be put out to pasture for good. There are no pure sine tones in soundtracks, so referencing pure sine tone listening tests vs human hearing is like referencing taste tests to explain the color red.

Thigpen was asked these same sorts of questions while discussing an installation of his TRW in a church to augment its pipe organ and his reply is one I've used as a reference from a reliable source (because, for one trivial point, he's actually experience full bandwidth reference level soundtrack playback:
Quote:
Perhaps the biggest misconception is that very low frequency sound is all "feel". If you get 6-10Hz up to over 120dB then yes, you begin to feel it. But you can actually hear it long before you feel it. In fact with mixed tones as is the case with a pipe organ the audible thresholds for very low frequencies are much lower, about 6 to 10dB less than the pure tone thresholds. In other words, well before you feel the sound you will hear it. In the middle of the sanctuary the 32' and 64' sine wave stops sounded really good. 105dB is the sound level it took to make these tones below 20Hz audible. This became the reference level for these stops.
In researching this project it is apparent that pipes in these organs are not really very loud, and definitely not very efficient. The pressure in the organ manifold determines how loud they play. The recordings show that they do not produce a really good pure tone because of the non linear compressibility of the air in the pipe. Also some stops are not supposed to produce a pure tone.

brucet

While Fitz's claim that his horn crack concrete (what next?), true or not, that has nothing whatever to do with full BW reference level playback of a soundtrack. I heard a singer could break a glass by singing a note at the resonant frequency of the glass. That has just as much to do with soundtrack content as the cracked concrete claim.

Actually, in a room like mine, which is of a typical residential wood frame construction, you can feel <25 Hz in every soundtrack that has such content when played back at reference level.

Looking at the posted graphs of content in the 2 scenes from HTTYD, it's evident that the effects are complex sounds made up of many simultaneous frequencies. The total sound power of the sum of all frequencies at any given instant cannot exceed the limits of the format. That means that the <25 Hz portion simply cannot be 120dB. The reality is much closer to the 105dB Thigpen refers to as his experienced reference.

Many of us who have long ago decided that it was worth the effort to explore full bandwidth reference level playback of the SW output have posted many times on the benefits. The only conclusion that can be made when people question posted comments on the results is that they believe we are mentally incapable or liars. In 10 years on this forum I have not seen a single case of someone who upped his subwoofer system to include reference playback of <20 Hz content who reported back that he wasn't missing anything in the 30 Hz tuned ported or horn sub he upgraded from.

20 years into discrete, multichannel audio, there is no doubt that <25 Hz content exists in at least over 1,000 titles, that it is intentionally designed to be there and that inclusion of its playback in your HT is a whole new and very rewarding experience. Honestly, to those who still attempt to argue the polar opposite of those simple facts, I just have to wonder what's up with that?
post #67 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


20 years into discrete, multichannel audio, there is no doubt that <25 Hz content exists in at least over 1,000 titles, that it is intentionally designed to be there and that inclusion of its playback in your HT is a whole new and very rewarding experience. Honestly, to those who still attempt to argue the polar opposite of those simple facts, I just have to wonder what's up with that?
I bet if you did a chart of the video content of a DVD you could find infra-red and ultra-violet content too. I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying whether my gear reproduces it.
post #68 of 114
Welcome back bosso.
post #69 of 114
I thought the studio that made "how to train a dragon" used jbl 4645c's to master the audio. I wonder how the studios are playing back these ulf's.


http://disneydigitalstudio.com/stage-a-2/
post #70 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezmond View Post

I thought the studio that made "how to train a dragon" used jbl 4645c's to master the audio. I wonder how the studios are playing back these ulf's.


http://disneydigitalstudio.com/stage-a-2/

How To Train Your Dragon was a DreamWorks film? I thought Skywalker Sound did the post sound stuff on it?
post #71 of 114
Your right, that was before the merger .I wonder what kind of setup was used to master it.
post #72 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

When an enthusiast strives for the cleanest high end from his mains he's called an audiophile but when someone seeks the same result on the low end he's a "bass head" nutjob who spends "tons" of money and needs a nuclear power plant to juice his insane rig to 125dB at 3 Hz. rolleyes.gif

For frame of reference, the SW out comprises 5-1/2 octaves (3-120 Hz). Lopping it off at 25 Hz reduces that bandwidth to 2-1/4 octaves, or to less than 1/2. I wonder who would be taken seriously if he suggested lopping off the high end at 4000 Hz, citing examples of source %s, hearing curve BS, etc?

Regarding "all effects are fake", that's not exactly correct. Although effects are created (after all, how would one mic a dragon spewing fire?), they are created using very real sounds. Randy Thom on sound design for How To Train Your Dragon:
Some of the results of that particular work:





If you filter at 25 Hz, what are you missing? Technically, the simple answer is; more than 1/2 of the presentation of the summed low end of all channels of the soundtrack (the SW output).

Regarding these endless (and by now, one would think they would just be unanimously dismissed to the point where they might only be presented as a question and not an authoritative edict) Equal Loudness Curves references, Craig John gets it right (as he usually does). Infrasonics are not in the sonic range, so why are there so many who suggest the need to be able to so grossly distort the presentation as to make them equally audible with 1000 Hz? This is an irrelevant subject that needs to be put out to pasture for good. There are no pure sine tones in soundtracks, so referencing pure sine tone listening tests vs human hearing is like referencing taste tests to explain the color red.

Thigpen was asked these same sorts of questions while discussing an installation of his TRW in a church to augment its pipe organ and his reply is one I've used as a reference from a reliable source (because, for one trivial point, he's actually experience full bandwidth reference level soundtrack playback:
While Fitz's claim that his horn crack concrete (what next?), true or not, that has nothing whatever to do with full BW reference level playback of a soundtrack. I heard a singer could break a glass by singing a note at the resonant frequency of the glass. That has just as much to do with soundtrack content as the cracked concrete claim.

Actually, in a room like mine, which is of a typical residential wood frame construction, you can feel <25 Hz in every soundtrack that has such content when played back at reference level.

Looking at the posted graphs of content in the 2 scenes from HTTYD, it's evident that the effects are complex sounds made up of many simultaneous frequencies. The total sound power of the sum of all frequencies at any given instant cannot exceed the limits of the format. That means that the <25 Hz portion simply cannot be 120dB. The reality is much closer to the 105dB Thigpen refers to as his experienced reference.

Many of us who have long ago decided that it was worth the effort to explore full bandwidth reference level playback of the SW output have posted many times on the benefits. The only conclusion that can be made when people question posted comments on the results is that they believe we are mentally incapable or liars. In 10 years on this forum I have not seen a single case of someone who upped his subwoofer system to include reference playback of <20 Hz content who reported back that he wasn't missing anything in the 30 Hz tuned ported or horn sub he upgraded from.

20 years into discrete, multichannel audio, there is no doubt that <25 Hz content exists in at least over 1,000 titles, that it is intentionally designed to be there and that inclusion of its playback in your HT is a whole new and very rewarding experience. Honestly, to those who still attempt to argue the polar opposite of those simple facts, I just have to wonder what's up with that?

GREAT post Bosso!

For those unfamiliar with Bosso's measurements, those depict his IN-ROOM response. The measurements are not taken at the BluRay player, or the pre outs; they're taken of the full output of his system and subwoofers. His system is fully capable of huge output at infrasonic frequencies. All of his components are selected with the criterion that they don't roll off the lowest frequencies. His subwoofers are then fully capable of reproducing that full range signal at Reference Level. IOW, he has experienced everything he talks about. Many of the naysayers have never experienced a system such as his. Keep that in mind when you read the various responses and put them in perspective.

Craig
post #73 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

GREAT post Bosso! Many of the naysayers have never experienced a system such as his.
I have. The question remains whether or not you can actually hear with your ears what's seen on the chart with your eyes. The answer is that if you're an elephant, or one of the other very few animals who Nature gave the ability to hear sounds which we call infra-sonic (and there's a reason why we do so), you will. If you're a human being, you won't. You'll feel the changes in air pressure in the room, if the system output is sufficient to pressurize it. The power required to do so in theaters is so high that they don't even try. If you want to do so in your home you may, with sufficient investment. It's all a matter of how you want to spend, and whether you care.
post #74 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I have. The question remains whether or not you can actually hear with your ears what's seen on the chart with your eyes. The answer is that if you're an elephant, or one of the other very few animals who Nature gave the ability to hear sounds which we call infra-sonic (and there's a reason why we do so), you will. If you're a human being, you won't. You'll feel the changes in air pressure in the room, if the system output is sufficient to pressurize it. The power required to do so in theaters is so high that they don't even try. If you want to do so in your home you may, with sufficient investment. It's all a matter of how you want to spend, and whether you care.

There is often a point of diminishing returns, where an every increasing amount of money buys decreasing value. While I wouldn't mind having infrasonic "sound" at a volume capable of feeling it, chasing that last bit of subwoofer capability would probably require quite a bit more than I paid for my subwoofer. The OP asked what he might miss. He will either miss the infrasonics - or cash in his wallet. smile.gif
post #75 of 114
Is it me or have we been debating this for days and the OP has been MIA.
post #76 of 114
It is SO WEIRD that people still have this conversation. The content is out there; proof that the content is out there is easy to find. What's left to discuss? Whether our ears hear very low frequencies? Who cares? We all perceive them--even a person who is deaf will perceive them. Therefore, maximize your extension to maximize your enjoyment.

The End, already.
post #77 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

What's left to discuss? Whether our ears hear very low frequencies? Who cares? We all perceive them--even a person who is deaf will perceive them. Therefore, maximize your extension to maximize your enjoyment.

And yet here we are. biggrin.gif

Actually, there is something more to discuss and that's the "Art" of it all as indeed, what brings us all together is the point that we're all here for two purposes (add to as you will) one being a better understanding of getting to the second point, the ability to enjoy that what we individually have the ability to perceive.

Do you perceive a peanut butter sandwich with benefit of bourbon, wine, water or coffee? Choose your beverage of choice or add additional choices as one finds necessary.

Not all ears perceive (hear) sound equally and not all rooms reproduce sound in equal fashions as there are so many variables that change the final outcome. One has to ask, what is a person's emotional sate of mind and what movie sound track is being reproduced? Our sonic viewing pleasure was satisfied last night by "Master and Commander.'

Are we all listening to the same track, in the same room, set up the same, being reproduced by the exact same equipment using the same emotional based standards? And of course, the answer is no. This morning, it finally dawned on me, the what the missing element is and that's the "Art" of it all. I don't see the "Art" of sound reproduction being discussed nor in a scientific fashion are the dissimilarities of everybody's system being discussed; the principal of repeatability in foreign venues. All things being equal, my system should equal everybody else's system. That sort of thing and obviously, it doesn't.

To a certain extent, the use of recording studios by sound engineers, do have standards but how these standards are reproduced is strictly an "Art" form based on scientific principal. No one studio is the same. No one sound track being identical to the other, each sound engineer brings their personal emotional interpretation to the recording session and each listener bringing their personal set of bias' to the table regarding what a producer expects out of a sound board which meets the classical definition of "Art" which is short for "Artisan." If you're an artist, then you have to love Quentin Tarantino, the quintessential artisan and if you're an "Artist" you'll intuitively understand what I just posted above. If not, you'll perceive my above as a troll.

If ten audio "engineers" were to come into any of our living rooms (or home theater palaces), with all the same gear and furniture piled in a single pile in the middle of the room, by the time it was all said and done, as many engineers as are participating in the study ("n"), is exactly how many different versions would one finally have regarding the expected (prejudice) outcome; a flat frequency chart. No one engineer duplicating what the other before them, all doing with what was piled in the middle of the room on their arrival. This meets the definition of "Art," based on science as each engineer's efforts will be a personal interpretation of sight and sound.

The point, what's more to discuss is the Art of sound reproduction in one's Home Theater venue. In my opinion, that's what's more to discuss. Just saying.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/3/13 at 4:20am
post #78 of 114
Some subs distort when playing a signal below the lowest frequency for which they are designed. I had some NHT sub drivers (model 1259?) that distorted whenever playing a frequency below the mid-30s. In such a case one can say that the ability to play lower frequencies is deficient. I currently have my Exodus subs setup with a HPF at 20Hz as one of them cannot play cleanly below that. I really don't miss playing lower frequencies and neither do my neighbors. If I lived in a house I would want to play lower frequencies, how low I don't know.
post #79 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Some subs distort when playing a signal below the lowest frequency for which they are designed. I had some NHT sub drivers (model 1259?) that distorted whenever playing a frequency below the mid-30s. In such a case one can say that the ability to play lower frequencies is deficient. I currently have my Exodus subs setup with a HPF at 20Hz as one of them cannot play cleanly below that. I really don't miss playing lower frequencies and neither do my neighbors. If I lived in a house I would want to play lower frequencies, how low I don't know.

I did a more empirical test last night at Best Buy, oh stop rolling your eyes. Anyway, They had an energy 10" sub, ESW-C10. It's frequency response is 32-140Hz. I turned it on the Jurassic Park T-Rex scene. I made SURE that nothing else sub-wise was running. Just some small Energy CB-10 bookshelf speakers.

Shook the room. I don't know if I'd miss a whole, whole lot, but I'm sure there's something. I don't believe I'll let not having below at 25Hz stop me anymore. I do appreciate all the help though.

Now I just need the best quality. In fact the HSU 32Hz may just be good :0.
post #80 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

.....oh stop rolling your eyes.

That would be no fun. tongue.gif
post #81 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

That would be no fun. tongue.gif

Probably but every time BB is mentioned the mocking begins. I wish I had all the places to demo stuff like y'all have.
post #82 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

Probably but every time BB is mentioned the mocking begins. I wish I had all the places to demo stuff like y'all have.

I can't mock Best Buy because I'm a Best Buy customer. biggrin.gif

We don't have any place to demo stuff where we're located. BB is some twenty-four miles from here as we're snuggled safely up in the mountains. Right where we want to be. Forums like this become a well spring of good information such as dependable reviews on all things audio-video related. As long as one has UPS/Fed Ex delivery and a High Speed internet connection, including Alice, one can get anything they want. biggrin.gif

Have you decided what subwoofer to get?
post #83 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I can't mock Best Buy because I'm a Best Buy customer. biggrin.gif

We don't have any place to demo stuff where we're located. BB is some twenty-four miles from here as we're snuggled safely up in the mountains. Right where we want to be. Forums like this become a well spring of good information such as dependable reviews on all things audio-video related. As long as one has UPS/Fed Ex delivery and a High Speed internet connection, including Alice, one can get anything they want. biggrin.gif

Have you decided what subwoofer to get?

Nope. I have some I like. I keep waiting on the "perfect" Craigslist sale.
post #84 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

Nope. I have some I like. I keep waiting on the "perfect" Craigslist sale.

And according to Murphy, of Murphy's Law fame, will come along the moment you sign a deal for a less than perfect choice. tongue.gif

It's da law. biggrin.gif
post #85 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post


Shook the room. I don't know if I'd miss a whole, whole lot, but I'm sure there's something. I don't believe I'll let not having below at 25Hz stop me anymore..

Well if all you're interested in is a bunch of shaking; I've got a buttkicker setup I'll sell you and you can get on with life. biggrin.gif
post #86 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

Any scenes from your favorites? For example, looking at the BIC F-12 and it is "only" 25Hz. What do you think I'll miss besides maybe the famous War of the Worlds tripod scene?

Not really
post #87 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by likemovies View Post

I did a more empirical test last night at Best Buy, oh stop rolling your eyes. Anyway, They had an energy 10" sub, ESW-C10. It's frequency response is 32-140Hz. I turned it on the Jurassic Park T-Rex scene. I made SURE that nothing else sub-wise was running. Just some small Energy CB-10 bookshelf speakers.

Shook the room. I don't know if I'd miss a whole, whole lot, but I'm sure there's something. I don't believe I'll let not having below at 25Hz stop me anymore. I do appreciate all the help though.

Now I just need the best quality. In fact the HSU 32Hz may just be good :0.

You can't miss something if it has never existed to you. You may not feel the need for below 25Hz bass right now, but at some point in the future you will become curious. It's inevitable, as that is the avsforum curse.

What you miss by leaving out bass below 30Hz, is the violence aspect. Where bass seems to just get deeper and deeper until it disappears. Hiding in your walls and under your couch, growling at you as it knocks your pictures off the wall. You start worrying if your walls can handle the flexing as they creak and moan. And this is only at half volume..mwahahah!

But seriously, what you'll miss is the tactile feeling of LFE in movies. Not the chest pounding, or slight shaking of the room. But foundation shaking, inner wall vibrations, and just all around violently realistic effects that can further immerse you in your music/movies.
post #88 of 114
You don't want your music with a lot wall shaking, that's OK for movies but not music. Also, you don't need infrasonic content to shake your walls.
post #89 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

You don't want your music with a lot wall shaking,...

Being a 60's kind of rocker, I have to take exception with your above. tongue.gif
post #90 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

You don't want your music with a lot wall shaking, that's OK for movies but not music. Also, you don't need infrasonic content to shake your walls.

That sounds like an opinion, nothing more.

Of course you don't need infrasonic bass to shake your walls. That why I said the bass seems to disappear while continuing to shake you and your room.
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