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How much will I miss if I "only" go down to 25Hz? - Page 4

post #91 of 114
2/6/13 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

You can't miss something if it has never existed to you. You may not feel the need for below 25Hz bass right now, but at some point in the future you will become curious. It's inevitable, as that is the avsforum curse.

What you miss by leaving out bass below 30Hz, is the violence aspect. Where bass seems to just get deeper and deeper until it disappears. Hiding in your walls and under your couch, growling at you as it knocks your pictures off the wall. You start worrying if your walls can handle the flexing as they creak and moan. And this is only at half volume..mwahahah!

But seriously, what you'll miss is the tactile feeling of LFE in movies. Not the chest pounding, or slight shaking of the room. But foundation shaking, inner wall vibrations, and just all around violently realistic effects that can further immerse you in your music/movies.

Not kidding, I felt my pant legs flap recently during Batman Rises.... It was an awesome feeling smile.gif
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post #92 of 114
2/6/13 at 6:44pm
I look forward to the more frequent implementation of low bass in Quality movies. You guys have to admit, a lot of the same old movies referenced here containing the same scenes played over and over...just aren't good movies. Well...master and commander was pretty good I guess.
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post #93 of 114
2/6/13 at 6:53pm
I hear you. Not that the movies that are often referred to for low bass are all bad. But that the selection is still pretty small.
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post #94 of 114
2/7/13 at 5:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I'd definitely agree with that. Anyone who says there are only a handful of movies with sub 25hz content; doesn't have the equipment to experience sub 25hz content. biggrin.gif
And here I was concerned about sub 10hz movies.
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post #95 of 114
2/16/13 at 10:14pm
hello to everyone! a new poster but been a long time lurker. i'm enjoying this thread.
hmm, below 20 hz is beyond human hearing but we cannot discount that tactile effect is just as important when trying to mimic reality in the movie experience. this is one of the reasons forums like this enjoy ardent followers and the ht has been around and growing. however, just like anything else (including subwoofers)--there is always a price to pay to get the best bang for the buck. ultra low sound or very high spl will always require a compromise--the buyer has to choose what is important to him. here's what i found out tonight about subwoofers (or infrasonics, in specific) from this excellent link--http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php. i quote below:

"Subwoofers - and speakers in general - vary in regard to their frequency range, sound pressure and distortion levels. One subwoofer may reproduce lower frequencies than another, or output a higher sound pressure level, but at the expense of a higher distortion. Choosing the right subwoofer needs more investigation than just picking the lowest pitch specification or the highest output level! "

"Distortion adds new spectral components to the original signal and thereby falsifies the sound (exactly as digital aliasing does at the other end of the spectrum). As distortion increases with the speaker's cone excursion, it limits the maximum usable output of the loudspeaker."

as for me, i don't have the space and/or the money to bridge the compromise stated above (ultra low sound and very high spl without the distortion). but very few people have. so i chose what i can afford. i bought a 15 year old m & k v-76 (in excellent shape)--http://dreamhomecinema.com/GEN/PRODUCTS/M_K/M_K%20V76.html--from another member here (DownhomeUpstate). he shipped it to me yesterday ( i ordered sunday). for me, this sub fills the missing link (for now!)--price-wise and quality-wise. so far, i'm pleased with the ultra low, clean and powerful output. just like the review stated! below is a pic of my system with my newly aquired sub now working as the anchor for my 5.3 system (3 subs). the m & k sub is the one without the grille on. thanks.

http://dreamhomecinema.com/GEN/PRODUCTS/M_K/M_K%20V76.html
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post #96 of 114
2/16/13 at 10:18pm
oops! sorry, i don't know how post picture here! i copied and pasted the link to the review instead of my system. sorry!
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post #97 of 114
2/18/13 at 9:36am
Quote:
hello to everyone! a new poster but been a long time lurker. i'm enjoying this thread.
hmm, below 20 hz is beyond human hearing but we cannot discount that tactile effect is just as important when trying to mimic reality in the movie experience

You don't need infrasounds at high SPL to get that tactile sensation. Anyway, I think you stand to overspend on subwoofers chasing an infinitesimal amount content that contains infrasonic information. Also, infrasound and tactile sensation is more related to field of human touch than it is psychoacoustic, in my opinion, there is far too much emphasis given to infrasounds in this forum when this is the Audio Video Science forum. If you really want some tacticle sensation that's what the bass shakers are for. I don't think you should use subwoofers to achieve that, its far too costly for what you get in return, which is little. The point of diminshing returns comes swiftly in pursuit of infrasounds or content below threshold over human hearing.
Edited by Auditor55 - 2/18/13 at 9:59am
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post #98 of 114
2/18/13 at 10:14am
Auditor55,

You are entitled to your opinion on this matter and what you say is reasonable.

However,

My experience is that my JTR caps will shake the room, shake the chair, shake the air, and start to knock down dust...they'll even start to make breathing feel weird at about 105dB and above on a 20Hz sine wave.

A transducer will only shake your butt.

A transducer may actually shake the chair more, and that's fun and engaging in its own right, but the two feel very different.

If I could only have one (and I currently do have both) I would certainly take the feel of powerful acoustic energy from the sub - yes at greater expense.

Here's a video I made to showcase the ultra low frequency effects of acoustic energy. Can't do this with transducers on a concrete slab.

http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5YpXIFfScAU
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post #99 of 114
2/18/13 at 10:30am
I go over this, over and over and over again in my mind and no matter how hard I try, I can't come up with a solution to the question, at the time of the sound track mixing, did the sound mixing engineer intend for us to have at the sonic ready, a wall of eighteen inch subwoofers with ready access to the TVA or did they intend to have 20Hz be the expected brick wall limit, a normal household 20A for a power circuit, simultaneously being used by accompanying sound reproduction appliances and everything else is to be considered coincidental?

The point (and yes, this point seems totally lost), what is real and what is fantasy.

Disclosure; currently my personal sealed sub standard has moved down to 14/16Hz at THX reference level. I can't say in truth if I'm being rational, influenced by forum hype as my wife doesn't think I'm even close to rational as my expectations are small and limited compared to the expectations of many who come here to share.

An aside, even after a forum search, I don't see much discussion regarding Emotiva subs. What's with that?

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/18/13 at 10:37am
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post #100 of 114
2/18/13 at 10:40am
IMO, no-one "needs" sub-20Hz capability, but it sure is a "nice to have". biggrin.gif
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post #101 of 114
2/18/13 at 11:37am
Without direct quotes from the people involved, IMO, trying to determine their intentions is a bit pointless. This "discussion" has come up over and over again without really going anywhere. Here are some pertinent facts as I see them:

-It has been unequivocally proven that movies exist that contain high level content down to 3hz. Whether these movies are worth watching is a personal opinion and is not worth arguing over. Whether there are enough movies with this content to justify the expense and effort of setting up a subwoofer system that can properly reproduce it, is also a subjective opinion and not worth arguing over.

-I do not know of any mixing studio that is capable of reference level reproduction down to 3hz. So the people involved have not directly experienced that content during the mixing process.

-However, the vast majority of this content matches what is happening in the movie. In other words, the ULF content is perfectly synced with the explosion, footsteps, gun shots or whatever else is happening. I only remember reading about one movie that had an ULF effect that was completely out of place and did not match what was happening in the movie.

-If the people involved absolutely did not want content in their mix below 30hz, 20hz, or any other cut off frequency, they could easily achieve that with simple filtering. Some movies have been mixed like this.


So based on this, my opinion is that you can't really talk about director or mixer intent regarding this content since they never directly experienced it. But at some point during the entire process, someone does make a choice whether to leave the content in place or remove it. Again, IMO, if ULF frequencies were completely ignored by those involved, I would think there would be more out of place effects in movies.

In the end, this is a hobby and is supposed to be enjoyable. Is it more important to find what is most enjoyable or what is "intended"? I would encourage everyone to try to experience a system that has high level ULF capability and find out if it adds to your enjoyment of the movie. Then you can make a decision based on your individual situation whether it is worth pursuing.

-Mike
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post #102 of 114
2/18/13 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

IMO, no-one "needs" sub-20Hz capability, but it sure is a "nice to have". biggrin.gif

That could hold true for most everything. I don't need a 130" screen, I don't need 11.2 surround sound, I don't need a custom anamorphic setup, I don't need..............................; but it sure adds to the experience. smile.gif
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post #103 of 114
2/18/13 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Without direct quotes from the people involved, IMO, trying to determine their intentions is a bit pointless. This "discussion" has come up over and over again without really going anywhere. Here are some pertinent facts as I see them:

-It has been unequivocally proven that movies exist that contain high level content down to 3hz. Whether these movies are worth watching is a personal opinion and is not worth arguing over. Whether there are enough movies with this content to justify the expense and effort of setting up a subwoofer system that can properly reproduce it, is also a subjective opinion and not worth arguing over.

-I do not know of any mixing studio that is capable of reference level reproduction down to 3hz. So the people involved have not directly experienced that content during the mixing process.

-However, the vast majority of this content matches what is happening in the movie. In other words, the ULF content is perfectly synced with the explosion, footsteps, gun shots or whatever else is happening. I only remember reading about one movie that had an ULF effect that was completely out of place and did not match what was happening in the movie.

-If the people involved absolutely did not want content in their mix below 30hz, 20hz, or any other cut off frequency, they could easily achieve that with simple filtering. Some movies have been mixed like this.


So based on this, my opinion is that you can't really talk about director or mixer intent regarding this content since they never directly experienced it. But at some point during the entire process, someone does make a choice whether to leave the content in place or remove it. Again, IMO, if ULF frequencies were completely ignored by those involved, I would think there would be more out of place effects in movies.

In the end, this is a hobby and is supposed to be enjoyable. Is it more important to find what is most enjoyable or what is "intended"? I would encourage everyone to try to experience a system that has high level ULF capability and find out if it adds to your enjoyment of the movie. Then you can make a decision based on your individual situation whether it is worth pursuing.

-Mike
That is the *best* and most unbiased summation of the entire discussion I have ever seen posted. Excellent post, Mike!

Craig
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post #104 of 114
2/18/13 at 1:24pm
Quote:
That could hold true for most everything.
Well, there's actually a lot it wouldn't apply to - indigestion, car accident, cancer, etc. - but it certainly is applicable to most everything in HT. Which is probably what you meant anyway. smile.gif
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post #105 of 114
2/18/13 at 1:37pm
"That could hold true for most everything."
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Well, there's actually a lot it wouldn't apply to - indigestion, car accident, cancer, etc. - but it certainly is applicable to most everything in HT. Which is probably what you meant anyway. smile.gif

But you're responding to a non-answer in that the comment fails to answer the question any further then it's all subjective. confused.gif
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post #106 of 114
2/18/13 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Well, there's actually a lot it wouldn't apply to - indigestion, car accident, cancer, etc. - but it certainly is applicable to most everything in HT. Which is probably what you meant anyway. smile.gif

Ummm yeah, cause I find myself saying all the time; a car accident, indigestion, sickness, etc, sure would be nice to have. rolleyes.gif
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post #107 of 114
2/18/13 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Ummm yeah, cause I find myself saying all the time; a car accident, indigestion, sickness, etc, sure would be nice to have. rolleyes.gif
Like I said: Although you wrote "That could hold true for most everything", I'm pretty sure "most everything" was limited to HT. Unless you're one of those sickos who gets off on car accidents and indigestion... eek.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #108 of 114
2/18/13 at 6:12pm
Quote:
But you're responding to a non-answer in that the comment fails to answer the question any further then it's all subjective. confused.gif
That's probably because the "necessity" of sub-25Hz or sub-20Hz capability is subjective.
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post #109 of 114
2/18/13 at 7:09pm
Well, the fun of going over and over and over again in the haed will continue; insanity. tongue.gif
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post #110 of 114
2/19/13 at 4:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

That's probably because the "necessity" of sub-25Hz or sub-20Hz capability is subjective.
When you walk into my theater. tongue.gif



Receptionist : He’s right inside. Remember to have a good time!

Mac : Welcome!

Doug : Hey!

Mac : You friend of Marek’s?

Doug : Yes.. yeah, we’re.. we’re uh work together. That it?

Mac : That is … it

Doug : And it feels like real life?

Mac : What is life but our brains chemical perception of it. Your body feels it, your brain chemistry reacts. Here, we just remove the middle man and we go straight to the chemistry. That make it any less real?

Doug : Uh… Infrasound no matter how convincing, it is still just Infrasound.

Mac : That’s very good. You’re right, objectively. But from the inside, subjectively. I assure you it quite the opposite entirely. Its like, I get it, I get it. You’re here because you feel like something missing, you’ve got some thoughts, some longing for something more. We’re gonna give you that thing.
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post #111 of 114
2/19/13 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

When you walk into my theater. tongue.gif



Receptionist : He’s right inside. Remember to have a good time!

Mac : Welcome!

Doug : Hey!

Mac : You friend of Marek’s?

Doug : Yes.. yeah, we’re.. we’re uh work together. That it?

Mac : That is … it

Doug : And it feels like real life?

Mac : What is life but our brains chemical perception of it. Your body feels it, your brain chemistry reacts. Here, we just remove the middle man and we go straight to the chemistry. That make it any less real?

Doug : Uh… Infrasound no matter how convincing, it is still just Infrasound.

Mac : That’s very good. You’re right, objectively. But from the inside, subjectively. I assure you it quite the opposite entirely. Its like, I get it, I get it. You’re here because you feel like something missing, you’ve got some thoughts, some longing for something more. We’re gonna give you that thing.
Now that's funny! biggrin.gif

Craig
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post #112 of 114
2/19/13 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Now that's funny! biggrin.gif

Craig

LOL, it was the first thing that came to mind when read eljaycanuck's post!!! biggrin.giftongue.gif
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post #113 of 114
2/19/13 at 3:46pm
Not sure if that's a good thing... wink.gif Anyway, I'm more of a Matrix guy than a Total Recall guy... biggrin.gif
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post #114 of 114
2/19/13 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

LOL, it was the first thing that came to mind when read eljaycanuck's post!!! biggrin.giftongue.gif

That was real good Dave! I have had a terrible day today. One of those days where nothing goes according to plan and it seems I've had to bite the bullet on more than several occasions today......................
until I read your post! I feel better than I've felt all day after reading that. Thanks!!

Al
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