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TD12X SEOS Tower Speaker Build - Page 2

post #31 of 252
2/1/13 at 2:43pm
Bhazard
I am following your build. Beasts Seos build was the straw for me so now I am trying to figure it all out. I will do 4 SEOS 12 w/TD12X and use them as surrounds with my current T12's HT. If this goes well all roads lead to the Noesis for the LCR. On your above question about trying to match the performance of the Noesis this is what I know for sure, part for part the price keeps coming in at about $1500. Any less and one has to use less quality parts and an inferior cabinet build compared to what Jeff is using so the money I save on the surrounds build is justification for me to buy the Noesis straight out and avoid the hassel of crossover design. When someone on here actually builds a quality copy of the Noesis then we will all know it can be done but I would like to see it done first then I would be more comfortable with a DIY Noesis. As far as the SEOS 12 build goes I will follow Beasts idea and have the crossover outsourced if thats an option. Now that the DIY is taking off full tilt I think alot more options will come out over this next year.
I look forward to watching your project unfold and hope it works out better than your expectations.
Good Luck
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/1/13 at 3:48pm
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post #32 of 252
2/1/13 at 3:45pm
DIY yourself isn't just taking off bro! We have been here for a while biggrin.gif haha. I would urge you to build out the SEOS TD12x's and at least give em a shot at LCR. If done like mine, you might forget the T-12's, but certainly not the Noesis smile.gif When I get to my Noetalysts, that will be a WHOLE new ball game!!!!
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post #33 of 252
2/1/13 at 3:59pm
Beast
I need rear channels more than anything so I will be able to see how they stack up against the T12's. I fully plan on replacing them with the Noesis in the not so distant future. Right now I just need to break my DIY cherry on something and this build seems like a good one to me. I will be taking my time so I can roll with the punches as things change. What is this Noetalysts? Almost sounds like the Catalyst/Noesis or is it an active version of the Noesis? You carve the path and I will follow. smile.gif
Thanks Beast
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/2/13 at 10:01am
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post #34 of 252
2/1/13 at 4:14pm
Yeah, spill it Beast. The name sure sounds like you're planning an active 12" MTM with a beefy (BA?) compression driver crossed low, taking from both the namesake designs. There are only so many ways to make it work, but some details on your plan would be great.
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post #35 of 252
2/1/13 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 
Ordered the TD12Xs.

I feel like DIY is the way to go. There may be huge advances or price drops in quality compression drivers for these designs within the next few years. I always see JTR crossovers being upgraded, so I could see a Noesis quality SEOS happen within the next few years.
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post #36 of 252
2/1/13 at 5:29pm
I agree things will be moving pretty quickly in this type of CD/horn designs over tha next few years with alot of people putting theaters in their homes. This design gives the total cinema theater experience and live concert sound. Also 18" subwoofers will be getting better and less expensive. How long did they say it will take you to receive your TD12X?
Chris
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post #37 of 252
2/1/13 at 5:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I agree things will be moving pretty quickly in this type of CD/horn designs over tha next few years with alot of people putting theaters in their homes. This design gives the total cinema theater experience and live concert sound. Also 18" subwoofers will be getting better and less expensive. How long did they say it will take you to receive your TD12X?
Chris

2-4 weeks. Should be right in time for when my dual 18" box is done. I feel that 18" subs are affordable now with the SI 18" around.
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post #38 of 252
2/1/13 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

2-4 weeks. Should be right in time for when my dual 18" box is done. I feel that 18" subs are affordable now with the SI 18" around.
Good turn around time. Better than I expected. The SI 18" is an excellent deal as is the DA 18". I would like to see the quality or close to the LMS 5400 in the $500 price range down the road.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/2/13 at 4:50am
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post #39 of 252
2/2/13 at 7:29am
Speaking of the Nosesis, why hasn't anyone attempted to clone that bad boy yet? I will admit that I know little about the Nosesis, but I do know that it uses a driver the same as, or similar to the BMS 4550, right? Why doesn't someone try to figure out what other drivers are bein used in the Nosesis and then have one of out forum crossover gurus start playing with some different crossover designate? This does not seem like it would be very hard to do, if all of my assumptions above are correct.
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post #40 of 252
2/2/13 at 7:38am
marty, it is largely a price matter. the compression driver is likely the bms 4594 or similar which is a coaxial that costs around $900 ea.

also, the noesis is nothing new. john j. built something similar years ago.

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1690

scroll down.
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post #41 of 252
2/2/13 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
That kinda hits on why I'm staying DIY. If a driver comes out eventually to match it in performance for a much lower cost, a driver and crossover swap is all I would need.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
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post #42 of 252
2/2/13 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

That kinda hits on why I'm staying DIY. If a driver comes out eventually to match it in performance for a much lower cost, a driver and crossover swap is all I would need.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
I think we are on the same page as I want a better CD than the 360 but at the present it seems to be easier to build with it then as you said swap it and the crossover out when a new CD becomes dueable. wink.gif A high end CD with the TD12X will be one sweet speaker.
Chris
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post #43 of 252
2/2/13 at 11:00am
We may already have the best compression driver that approaches this kind of performance (call it 75%) at a reasonable price (15-20%) in Erich's BA-750. Admittedly I know nothing about CD design or manufacture, but the BA is good down to ~600 Hz vs. ~500 Hz for the BMS. At the other end the BA gets a little peaky and starts dropping off around 15k, and the BMS not so much. But the BMS is on a different level of technology, being a coaxial compression driver. I honestly don't know if one could improve on what the BA accomplishes without involving exotic diaphragm materials or trick technologies like a coaxial CD - and any of that seems to be what pushes costs up into the stratosphere.
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post #44 of 252
2/2/13 at 11:25am
"I honestly don't know if one could improve on what the BA accomplishes without involving exotic diaphragm materials or trick technologies like a coaxial CD"

you could use a cd with a larger diaphragm as that is what generally dictates how low in frequency the driver will perform. there are some out now that aren't terribly expensive, but not as low price as the ba.
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post #45 of 252
2/2/13 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


How can this be made to work? SEOS 12 w/BA750 and TD12X. The 750 is the upgrade I was referring to but will it work and can I outsource the crossover?
I have the current 2012 T12's and am a little confused about the BMS cd in them. The past upgrades that Jeff offered for those ran $300 ea for the CD and crossover updates. It was reported to be an audible upgrade each time.
If the above is not possible or just too complicated I will be glad to start with the 360. These will be my SS & RS speakers but they will eventually be paired with the Noesis as fronts.
Thanks for any help in understanding this.
Chris

The BA-750 is not an upgrade over the DNA-360 unless it's used on a large enough waveguide that can take advantage of a lower crossover point. There's really no reason to use it with a 12" woofer or a 12" waveguide.
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post #46 of 252
2/2/13 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I honestly don't know if one could improve on what the BA accomplishes without involving exotic diaphragm materials or trick technologies like a coaxial CD"

you could use a cd with a larger diaphragm as that is what generally dictates how low in frequency the driver will perform. there are some out now that aren't terribly expensive, but not as low price as the ba.
Dont drivers like that give up more in the top end though, eventually reaching the point where a supertweeter is required? I guess the BA looks like an excellent compromise that gives away very little for less than $200.

Feel free to school me, I realise you know way more about this stuff than I do :-)
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post #47 of 252
2/2/13 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The BA-750 is not an upgrade over the DNA-360 unless it's used on a large enough waveguide that can take advantage of a lower crossover point. There's really no reason to use it with a 12" woofer or a 12" waveguide.
Thanks Erich. I will have some questions to ask you later when I get a little more organized. smile.gif
Chris
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post #48 of 252
2/4/13 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Beast
I need rear channels more than anything so I will be able to see how they stack up against the T12's. I fully plan on replacing them with the Noesis in the not so distant future. Right now I just need to break my DIY cherry on something and this build seems like a good one to me. I will be taking my time so I can roll with the punches as things change. What is this Noetalysts? Almost sounds like the Catalyst/Noesis or is it an active version of the Noesis? You carve the path and I will follow. smile.gif
Thanks Beast
Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Yeah, spill it Beast. The name sure sounds like you're planning an active 12" MTM with a beefy (BA?) compression driver crossed low, taking from both the namesake designs. There are only so many ways to make it work, but some details on your plan would be great.

Not much to spill at this point, but just imagine a full-range version of the noesis. It won't be active, but will take things from both designs and optimize them into a single speaker, if all goes well biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Speaking of the Nosesis, why hasn't anyone attempted to clone that bad boy yet? I will admit that I know little about the Nosesis, but I do know that it uses a driver the same as, or similar to the BMS 4550, right? Why doesn't someone try to figure out what other drivers are bein used in the Nosesis and then have one of out forum crossover gurus start playing with some different crossover designate? This does not seem like it would be very hard to do, if all of my assumptions above are correct.

Could be done I recon, but why try to do it exact as Jeff offers it? He doesn't offer a whole lot of premium once you get all the drivers, wood, finishing, etc. Might as well just buy them right from JTR smile.gif
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post #49 of 252
2/4/13 at 8:58am
Thread Starter 
I've been playing with the idea to add two Tempests for side surrounds once these are done, as it could possibly be timbre matched since it uses the 350 driver. I saw Birch packs being offered for the .6cu ft boxes.. if they become available for the 2 cu ft boxes, it would save a ton of time.

The sub is coming along too... I should have the amp ordered and drivers installed by mid next week. Can't wait.
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post #50 of 252
2/4/13 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Speaking of the Nosesis, why hasn't anyone attempted to clone that bad boy yet? I will admit that I know little about the Nosesis, but I do know that it uses a driver the same as, or similar to the BMS 4550, right? Why doesn't someone try to figure out what other drivers are bein used in the Nosesis and then have one of out forum crossover gurus start playing with some different crossover designate? This does not seem like it would be very hard to do, if all of my assumptions above are correct.

Heh. I'll have that beat, easily. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


Not much to spill at this point, but just imagine a full-range version of the noesis. It won't be active, but will take things from both designs and optimize them into a single speaker, if all goes well biggrin.gif

I'd like to see this. smile.gif
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post #51 of 252
2/4/13 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I've been playing with the idea to add two Tempests for side surrounds once these are done, as it could possibly be timbre matched since it uses the 350 driver. I saw Birch packs being offered for the .6cu ft boxes.. if they become available for the 2 cu ft boxes, it would save a ton of time.

The sub is coming along too... I should have the amp ordered and drivers installed by mid next week. Can't wait.
I would love to see Birch 2.5 cu boxes too. Good idea on the Side surrounds as it will match just fine with the same name brand CD. You could up it to the 360. Tempest comes with the 360 in the SEOS12 kit. What amp are you going to use to power your subs?

Beast
Noesis with 2 TD12X could be made full range. Mark uses AE drivers in the Cats. So it sounds like your plans involve AE drivers and a BMS 1.4" CD or somethiong close. The SEOS 15 w/TD15X & BA-750 sounds pretty interesting.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/8/13 at 6:14pm
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post #52 of 252
2/5/13 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
Ok, I need some help from WinISD wizards here.

The box will be 40"tall x 14.5"L x around 12-14.5W. The baffle will have cutouts for 3 2.5" ports. TD12X woofer

When I ran the numbers, it says I would need a port length of around 6 1/4" inches for all 3 of them for ~40hz tune. Is that correct?
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post #53 of 252
2/5/13 at 11:59am
I don't use WinISD, but modelled a few things for you. First, If you can go with that 40H x 14.5W x 14.5D you have plenty of volume to go lower than 40hz. With 40hz tuning you will never really take advantage of the excursion of the driver. Also, tuning lower pushes the bump in group delay down further and makes things sound a little better. I'd say tuning right around 32hz is more ideal. You get a little more gradual rolloff that helps to blend with room gain. At 35hz response is only 6dB down. With 750W input you get right to the Xmax of the driver at 51hz. At a level of almost 122dB there. I'm not sure how much power you plan to put into these, but they can play quite loud.

The only thing I see then is the issue with the ports. You really want far more port area to not limit the system. Ideally you want the output of the ports to limit about the same time as the power input. The 3 ports of 2.5" diameter you mentioned in this case would be about 8" long. In an ideal world you want vent velocity to stay under 10m/s to avoid distortion. This isn't realistic in most cases so a good goal is 20m/s at tuning with maximum input power. This requires far more vent area than you mentioned. The 3 ports of 2.5" diameter will reach 20m/s with only 150W input. I would go with a single slot vent that is 12" wide x 2.5" tall and 21" long. The easiest is to come in along the bottom, then turn up the back of the cabinet. Going 12" wide x 2" tall x 16" long on the vent is good to about 500W input.

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post #54 of 252
2/5/13 at 4:38pm
John,
Thank you for contributing to this thread. I have a friend who is looking for a full range, floor standing waveguide design. He likes the "sound" of a well designed TL.
Is the TD12X suitable for a TL design? If so, which type would work best?
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post #55 of 252
2/5/13 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

I don't use WinISD, but modelled a few things for you. First, If you can go with that 40H x 14.5W x 14.5D you have plenty of volume to go lower than 40hz. With 40hz tuning you will never really take advantage of the excursion of the driver. Also, tuning lower pushes the bump in group delay down further and makes things sound a little better. I'd say tuning right around 32hz is more ideal. You get a little more gradual rolloff that helps to blend with room gain. At 35hz response is only 6dB down. With 750W input you get right to the Xmax of the driver at 51hz. At a level of almost 122dB there. I'm not sure how much power you plan to put into these, but they can play quite loud.

The only thing I see then is the issue with the ports. You really want far more port area to not limit the system. Ideally you want the output of the ports to limit about the same time as the power input. The 3 ports of 2.5" diameter you mentioned in this case would be about 8" long. In an ideal world you want vent velocity to stay under 10m/s to avoid distortion. This isn't realistic in most cases so a good goal is 20m/s at tuning with maximum input power. This requires far more vent area than you mentioned. The 3 ports of 2.5" diameter will reach 20m/s with only 150W input. I would go with a single slot vent that is 12" wide x 2.5" tall and 21" long. The easiest is to come in along the bottom, then turn up the back of the cabinet. Going 12" wide x 2" tall x 16" long on the vent is good to about 500W input.

Awesome customer service. Even though I won't be driving more than 200w to it, glad to hear straight from the source that I can go to ~32hz with no issues.
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post #56 of 252
2/7/13 at 6:50pm
Thread Starter 
Baffles ordered.

If Eric can make the cuts for the woofers, or has some already pre cut, it would help quite a bit. Going with the long slot port to handle 750w, because 122db and why not right?
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post #57 of 252
3/18/13 at 5:51pm
Any pictures and/or reviews of the final design? I'd like to build similarly sized towers as well...
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post #58 of 252
3/18/13 at 6:17pm
Thread Starter 
I went with John's design above.

40H x 14.5W x 14.5D, 32hz tune
12" wide x 2.5" tall and 21" long slot port vent

Eric was able to do the baffle with the woofer cut from the cnc company, which saves a lot of time. I can use the baffle to make the sides and back piece too, since the dimensions are similar.

Getting the parts together soon and waiting on the woofer.

I may stain it to match my DIY Dual Opposed SI 18's that was just completed. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1453474/stereo-integrity-dual-18
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post #59 of 252
3/25/13 at 11:24am
Thread Starter 
...and the build has commenced! All parts are ordered, most delivered, and multiple people working on it to get them up and running. The only parts up in the air right now are the ship dates of the woofers themselves.
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post #60 of 252
3/25/13 at 1:09pm
Looking forward to watching this one; I have a pair of TD12X coming myself cool.gif
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