Turntable Suggestion

Bump.

I would look at the Rega RP3. For around the same price you can get a better TT w/a lot less problems. The new Rega comes w/a superior Tonearm the RB303 which can compare w/many tonearms in the $1000 price range plus it's a snap to align compared to the VPI arm which can be quirky. The arm has a 3 screw mounting alignment that makes it easy to properly install a cart. Also you can add the outboard speed box the Rega TT PSU and upgrade the cart to a Ortofon 2M Blue. The total cost will put you at the same price as the VPI, plus for a beginner it will be easier to setup and run. It might be worth looking into.

I would post your questions on the Audiokarma forum if I were you. Many enthusiastic and knowledgeable turntable folks on that forum.

Al

Problems w/ proper cart alignment also noisy start up w/the motor. It's a new product and apparently they haven't taken out all of the bugs. Also w/the speed box you'll be able to lock down a more accurate RPM. When you want to improve the sound of your TT speed and accuracy always comes first. As far a the Dynavector 10x5 is concerned I currently have one on my Linn LP12. Gives you excellent detail. It'll take about 50hrs of playing time to break in. By the way you can find qute a few older Linn TT's that use Rega tonearms. Also for someone just starting out setting up a Rega will be a breeze.

CD, by a mile. You can make a digital copy of a vinyl record that is audibly indistinguishable from the vinyl. You cannot make a vinyl copy of a CD (assumng you had a record plant!) that sounds just like the original CD. Digital is transparent; analog is not.
Indeed you do. Part of this must be nostalgia (or retro appeal, depending on your age bracket). But it's also that vinyl adds a certain amount of distortion of a sort that actually quite appealing. Some people mistake this for "realism" (probably the nostalgia at work there), but of course it's that distortion that makes vinyl non-transparent.

Bottom line, CD is more accurate, but people like vinyl, and there's nothing wrong with that. I listen to both.
You would do better to pick a turntable at random than to listen to Stereophile. Their analog reviewer is the biggest boob in the business.

I'm with Class A on Rega vs. VPI. And you certainly don't have to spend that kind of money to get a decent turntable. Rega tables start around $400 or so. Pro-Ject and Music Hall also make sub-$1k tables; most come with decent starter cartridges.
Depends on what the "purpose" is. As I said above, the digitization doesn't affect the sound, and if you use Audyssey for room correction when listening to CDs, why wouldn't you want to use it when listening to vinyl? It's not like your room nodes suddenly disappear when you start up a turntable! On the other hand, if you want that true vinyl experience, then direct analog pass-through is the way to go.

I have an Oppo too and yes technically it is more accurate and it sounds great. But subjectively I prefer the sound of my TT through my tube phono and tube preamp. Plus I find vinyl more interactive. I enjoy the collecting and the cleaning and tweaking that's involved. Is it for everyone?? No, but if you have a local dealer or some friends give it a listen if you enjoy it and like the sound try it. I admit I'm an analog nut but it's my thing and I always have a great time going to used record shops and picking up some music. And talk about quirky TT's my Linn LP12 is the King.

With regards to your initial question about which is better Blackdevil - neither. They are different. I have two pretty good sources and for me, some albums sound better on CD; but others on vinyl. Being a music lover first, I probably lean more toward vinyl. I do agree though with Class A that CD's are more accurate and sound great. If absolute accurate reproduction is what you are after, do not bother to read on. Stick with digital.

Like Class A above, I enjoy the interactivity with vinyl. I love going to used record shows with other friends in the hobby and finding hidden gems that are great shape for as little as 50 cents an album. I enjoy cleaning them, replacing the inner sleeves with archival quality sleeves, and finally playing them. I have many copies of the same album - the original, a MOFI original master, a 180 gram modern re-issue, and listening and comparing them all. I think I have five copies of Supertramps Crime of the Century. They all sound a little "different" and you get to pick your favorites. It adds to the flavor of the hobby. I only have one copy of Crime of the Century though on CD. No point in having any more. Yeah, its all subjective and not for everyone as was mentioned above. But for me its fun! And in the final analysis, that is what any hobby is really about.

Finally, about the VPI Traveler. I have auditioned this table and found the feel and quality to be outstanding for the money. While sounding good, I can't really say it blew away my current Pro-ject 5.1. It could of been the cartridge that was installed in the VPI at the time of the audition too. Or the room. But the tactile feel of the table along with the finish and overall quality, is enough to make me consider upgrading to one. But again, thats me because this is truly a hobby.

Good luck if you take the plunge.

Frankly, my general advice to people is, if you don't have a vinyl collection, don't start one. As several of us have said, it's not so much better as just different. And the point is the music, not the kind of disk it's on.

Now admittedly, that's not advice everyone will follow, nor should they. But if you're gonna do it, have a good reason.

The discussion on what medium actually provides the most accurate sound reproduction - vinyl or CD - is probably interesting if you're an engineer. Use your own ears! If you like what you hear then that's what matters. I recently reconnected to my old vinyl collection after 20 odd years of CDs and my old TT tucked away at mom's place and was very pleasantly surprised. My old 1976 Dual 510 sounded surprisingly good (after having been treated with a new pickup)!

Does it sound better than my CD player? Well, the new version of this TT, the Dual 505.4, goes for less than half of what my CD player costs (a Musical Fidelity X-Ray V8) and still the 35 year old Dual puts on good competition. On some recordings vinyl sounds better and on some CD. However, you should take into your consideration the price of a good phono pre-amp.

Some of the reasons I abandoned vinyl 25 years ago are no longer relevant. Then I was pleased with the portability of CDs and the fact that you didn't have to flip them over after five tunes. Now, I've got streaming services like Spotify or Wimp for portability, and actuallly like the fact that there are only five tunes in a row. With kids and family I often don't have more time to myself and a 16 tune CD just adds a stress factor. The size of LPs allows for nice cover art in a way that CDs don't. Listen to an LP is something like a tea ceremony, whereas listening to a CD lacks soul. Another factor to take into consideration is that many CDs today are horribly mastered and dynamically compressed in order to work better as background music and in car stereos. Often, but not always, the vinyl mastering is better. This alone is a powerful argument in favor of vinyl.

I haven't yet heard the Vpi Traveler (its on my list of to-dos) but at least in Sweden, where I live, the Rega RP6 with the Exact pickup comes at a better price. I took one home to try it out and had to fight my reflexes to go ahead and buy it directly! (I was planning of doing more thorough research before upgrading.) The sound is full yet very "alive" - its a TT with punch. Its also very forgiving with worn records and there's less pop and crackle than with other TTs. It certainly kicked the ass of a Linn LP 12 (basic configuration) that a friend of mine had brought along for comparison - and of my old Dual, but she may be forgiven, she plays in another league.

Welcome to the world of vinyl. I don't think you'll regret it!

As pointed out, you really can't say one is better than the other, they are different. However, if you ever listened to a really well setup turntable with a quality pressing record, there's something quite, quite magical about that... The sound is just super organic; just sounds and feels "right".

The VPI Traveller is a great turntable and probably one of the best values (plus it doesn't hurt that the company is well known for taking care of their customers...). Other brands to look for would be Rega, or my personal favorite, Clearaudio. What's important is the synergy between the turntable, the arm, the cartridge, as well as the phono stage/preamp. You need to have the right cartridge (load and output) for the phono stage... for example, you can't use a low output MC cartridge if you only have a MM stage, but you may be able to use a high output MC cartridge with that stage... You don't want a heavy arm if you turntable is built for a light arm, etc.

I would definitely try shutting off all kinds of processing when listening to the turntable. If you don't like it, add Audyssey again. Listen and trust your ear.

Back to CD vs. LP... I've aways loved the way my analog set up sounds, but I do have lots of CD. I've used some high end cd players over the year, Wadia 830 was my latest one. Over the last year, I've used an Oppo BDP-95 and although nice, it's always been something amiss... it kind of lacks the "emotions". So, a few weeks back I got a MHDT Havana Balanced DAC. Non-oversampling tube DAC... and OMG, did that bring back the emotions. Interestingly, thought I would lose out on details and especially lose out on the bass quality of the Oppo.... Quite the opposite was the actual truth. Every single detail is just there, but so much more "correct" than the Oppo... nothing sticks out, but is rather part of the "fabric". The bass in MHDT is again very different from the Oppo, just as deep, but before it was "that's some great bass on this recording", to with the MHDT "that bass player is great". It just brings the "humanity" back to my CD's. Was planning to get a transport that was in about the same price range as the MHDT, but it's so good, that I blew the budget and got a CEC TL1.

We knew in the sixties and seventies when we bought a TT that you purchased the TT based on objective measurements: wow, flutter, rumble, speed constancy, and how well it was decoupled from surrounding noises, i.e. footfall resistance, feedback prevention through support of the record, record mats and suspension.
I find it astonishing that those measurements are hardly discussed, and that apparently even the FR of a cartridge, compliance, behavior in a given tonearm and levels of distortion are replaced by subjective evaluation only.

A system with bad measurements will sound bad, a system that measures with lots of rumble etc. will sound good only to someone who does not have a clue what a properly designed player sounds like.
I am always astonished at folks touting the DUAL players, who usually had pretty substandard rumble figures, as compared to the Thorens.

I am always flabbergasted at what some folks hear in playback of a digital signal converted to analogue. It is also always flabbergasting to read then properly blinded studies where no one was able to beyond chance differentiate a few hundred dollar player from a megabuck player.
But - I am really tired to address this bull anymore, just had to mention it.
Edited by kraut - 4/20/13 at 8:01pm

Are you have a bad day there kraut? :-)

A component that measures bad doesn't necessarily sound bad. Think SET amps for example... they hardly measure well, but a well built one can sound amazing. Most modern turntables are well made, with stable pitch/speed, wow/flutter. Budget turntables today and miles better than the budget turntables of the 60's and 70's. Now, if we only look at the high end turntables of the 70's, there are still a few that were extremely well made and has a clear place in todays market.

... and yes, something that measures well, can lack the connection to YOU emotionally. Like me and the Oppo... yes all the details are there, all the bass, midrange and upper frequencies, but it just sounds boring. In my case, adding the MHDT did wonders in my set up. You're the one bringing up cost... I'm not sure that I could blindly pick a high price component over a low price component, but I CAN pick a component that sounds good me to and one that does not.

I should have said that parameters that exceed levels known to have negative influence on sound quality will make a unit sound bad, or at least compromised.
As to budget TTs today being better as budget TT's in the olden days? I do not know, I have not seen or read the specs. What worries me as I said is there is no discussion about those specs, and that might mean they are not being published.
A TT does not have a sound other that those parameters are audible in the quieter passages of a track or in between. Any audibility will influence the pleasure - believe me, that is why I went from a not so cheap Braun to in the end a rather expensive Transcriptors..who had a bunch of other problems. I am quite happy with the Thorens and the technics, which are quite silent with not even a hint of wow, flutter or rumble - the only thing that counts in a drive.
My TTs are all vintage, from TD 125 to Transcriptors to Technics SL10.

And I do not have any emotional connection to my equipment, I expect my equipment to transmit the signal with as little compromise as possible, to push any flaws into a region of inaudibility.
The emotion comes from listening to the music, the artists interpretation, and I am extremely happy running a music server that permits me to explore musical connections on the spur, i.e. checking out how different artists treated my favourite "trance blues song" GOING DOWN, from Freddy King to Warren Haynes.
Edited by kraut - 4/21/13 at 10:18am

I would also pick a Thorens over a Dual. If I could only locate my dad's old TD 160, I would swap immediately. My point was that even an a 35 year old Dual gives an 12 500 SEK (1 470 €) CD player a match. For one, the stereo perspective is considerably wider.

What we did in way of blind test was to record the three TT's via a AD converter 24/92 through a piece of software called Audacity and then chop the same piece up into 10 second long sections having corrected all three to equal levels. Then we conducted blind tests and every time could I tell which TT was which (although the differences were small). There are of course inherent errors in this method such as the AD converter distorting the sound. The idea, however, is that the distortion would be the same for all three TT's. It was the only way in which we could achieve something of a blind test with the TT's following each other immediately (otherwise you will have lost your sound memory). In addition to this we did of course spend longer stints just listening and enjoying. Do I have to add that my wife now thinks that I've lost my mind...

Ok, let us be clear. You tested complete turntables, which means the drive, the arm and the cartridge.

Any arm/cartridge combination alone can likely be distinguished from another arm/cartridge combo, even the same cartridge just mounted to a different arm might sound different.
I was only speaking to the parametres of the drive itself, the chassis including motor assembly, suspension and platter.

Guilty as charged - we did test complete combos, which of course leaves us wondering why the Rega RP6 sounded better than the Linn LP 12 (we both agreed). Was it the drive, the arm or the cartridge or just the combination of the three?

In our test the two TTs that sounded best also had cartridges in roughly the same price range - the Rega Exact and the Linn Addikt - whereas the Dual sported an Ortofon 2M Red, which goes for a third of the price. Would we still have heard the difference if we had swapped the cartridges or the arms (if possible)? We'll probably never really know although there are some audible differences such as speed variations (piano music is a sure give away), inner track distortion and rumble that stem from drive, platter and tonearm where the other two outperformed the Dual.

But what about stereo perspective, rhythm, authenticity etc? Were do they come from? And can they be measured and expressed in numbers?

... which is fine since you're never going to listen to the turntable without the arm or cartridge. You can take a great turntable make it sound horrible with the wrong arm and cartridge combination... The point I'm making is that it's the complete set up that really is of interest, not just the components thereof.

And I agree with you... there are many things that we simply can't measure, but is important to how we interpret the music (signal)

Can you list a few of those?

You definitely will not listen to such an item, but you might buy - as in my case - the items based on their merit.
As long as the drive itself specs out with values of parametres known to not compromise the sound as to rumble, wow, flatter and a good suspension that decouples the record from noise impact from the environment, you can then choose where it really counts: the arm/cartridge combination that will make a difference in sound.

Kraut, I agree with all that

If you already have a BDP-95 then invest your money in Hi-rez (24 bit) music and use the analog output of the Oppo (as opposed to HDMI) for better sound than any other method.

While my VPI Traveler with a Soundsmith Cartridge (replaced my Rega RP3 and sounds better in every possible way) sounds better than 16 bit CDs, the hi-rez software you can get, from HDTracks for example, decoded and played thru the analog output of the 95 is a big step up (as are the new music available in Blu-Ray & DSD format). However, you will miss out on a lot of good music from the last 60 years since a lot of it is not available in Hi-rez but can be had on vinyl.

This really is a question of your musical interests. Do you listen to mostly newer stuff or are you interested in excellent recordings of the past (most of which is best experienced on vinyl)??

Some of the HD Tracks downloads are better than the CD or vinyl releases. Some aren't. The same can be said of SACD/DVD-A relative to CD/vinyl. There can be a place for all of these formats.

i've been reading stereophile since it's "readers digest" days...advertising is now plentiful...it's contributors are passionate about this hobby and they give advice based on their own lifelong experiences...they get paid for their input

i've been reading avs forum since the pages were black with yellow print...advertising is now plentiful...it's contributors are passionate about this hobby and they give advice based their lifelong experiences...they don't get paid for their input


stereophile doesnt get much love here, and "the internet" doesnt get much love in stereophile.


i like reading both...tho both have their share of "boobs"


i recently bought a pro-ject debut carbon turntable...for 400 bucks i think this is the way to go if yer just curious about vinyl...

all that said, if blackdevil77 is jonesing for a vpi traveler turntable based on a stereophile review and has the cash...i say go for it, brother!
Edited by lefthandluke - 4/25/13 at 2:57am