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Need projector capable of lighting up huge screen with great picture. - Page 2

post #31 of 374
Thread Starter 
I have been pluggin them all into the calculator and can't get anything in the Sim2 line to put out enough light for the screen size...weird because they have higher stated lumens that many others that model well.
post #32 of 374
I have a SIM2 LUMIS HOST and a 14' wide Microperf (1.3 gain) and I get a great picture with good lighting. I use an ISCO III lens and though these is some light lost, my picture, though not like a flat panel, is pleasing and gives plenty of punch.
post #33 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I have a SIM2 LUMIS HOST and a 14' wide Microperf (1.3 gain) and I get a great picture with good lighting. I use an ISCO III lens and though these is some light lost, my picture, though not like a flat panel, is pleasing and gives plenty of punch.

Thanks for the reply. I have admired your room in the threads I haee seen it. You and Art actually both have great things to say, from what I have read, about the Sim2 units. My screen will not have any gain (seyour 4k with 1.0) but the room is going to be total blackout.
post #34 of 374
The Seymour Screen Excellence 4K is an excellent screen but it has less than unity gain. That by itself makes finding a projector difficult.

Couple that with the huge surface area of a 190" screen (I assume you are looking for a 2.35:1 screen in that width) means you will need a very high output projector.

A 190" 2.31: screen is 105 sq.ft. of screen area. Assuming unity gain (1.0) looking for a 3,000 lumens calibrated projector looks like a good starting point. That should give you enough output (28ft.L) so that even with 50% light loss as the bulb ages you will still meet the standard industry target of 14 ft.L at end of life.

Likely you would need to step up to a SIM2 Teatro, Wolf REF or Runco SC-50 (all $75K+ MSRP).

With that wide a screen you might consider dropping down to Seymour's other material which has a higher gain (1.2 specified), that might give you some more (cheaper) projector options.
post #35 of 374
Yea not many real 3000 lumen projectors out there even with a new lamp .Lumis,HT5000,Tetro 50 will be too underpowered for a screen the size you want IMO. The Teatro 80 could do it or one of the big Barcos or Christie units.

Art
Edited by Art Sonneborn - 2/4/13 at 11:01am
post #36 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

The Seymour Screen Excellence 4K is an excellent screen but it has less than unity gain. That by itself makes finding a projector difficult.

Couple that with the huge surface area of a 190" screen (I assume you are looking for a 2.35:1 screen in that width) means you will need a very high output projector.

A 190" 2.31: screen is 105 sq.ft. of screen area. Assuming unity gain (1.0) looking for a 3,000 lumens calibrated projector looks like a good starting point. That should give you enough output (28ft.L) so that even with 50% light loss as the bulb ages you will still meet the standard industry target of 14 ft.L at end of life.

Likely you would need to step up to a SIM2 Teatro, Wolf REF or Runco SC-50 (all $75K+ MSRP).

With that wide a screen you might consider dropping down to Seymour's other material which has a higher gain (1.2 specified), that might give you some more (cheaper) projector options.

Wow, great info. Thank you! I guess I may have underestimated the needs of the screen and gotten a bit carried away smile.gif I thought of going down to the center stage material to add some gain, but was concerend about the "long haul". I also thought that the 4k, on a screen that size, would be a big benefit. I started out looking at the Sony and the 4k would have been a factor. Now it isn't for the time being, but I would hopefully upgradePjs wihtin a few years, and upgrading the screen a second time seems like a bunch of extra $$ I don't need to spend. Thoughts?? I am also looking at a Sim2 Lumis Host used for far below the stated budget. Taht may be a good temp unit( a year or two) until the other 4k units may be available at lower cost.
post #37 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Wow, great info. Thank you! I guess I may have underestimated the needs of the screen and gotten a bit carried away smile.gif I thought of going down to the center stage material to add some gain, but was concerend about the "long haul". I also thought that the 4k, on a screen that size, would be a big benefit. I started out looking at the Sony and the 4k would have been a factor. Now it isn't for the time being, but I would hopefully upgradePjs wihtin a few years, and upgrading the screen a second time seems like a bunch of extra $$ I don't need to spend. Thoughts?? I am also looking at a Sim2 Lumis Host used for far below the stated budget. Taht may be a good temp unit( a year or two) until the other 4k units may be available at lower cost.

Personally I don't see high lumen output projectors coming down in price that much mainly because the market for them is so small.

Another idea would be a Display Development HD-5. Brand new DLP projector with a Xenon lamp, 35k without an anamorphic lens. 5,000 lumens uncalibrated output, 10:000:1 contrast, 3 chip 0.95" DMD.
post #38 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Personally I don't see high lumen output projectors coming down in price that much mainly because the market for them is so small.

Another idea would be a Display Development HD-5. Brand new DLP projector with a Xenon lamp, 35k without an anamorphic lens. 5,000 lumens uncalibrated output, 10:000:1 contrast, 3 chip 0.95" DMD.

Is that the company Jim Burns has now that he isn't with Wolf ?

Art
post #39 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Is that the company Jim Burns has now that he isn't with Wolf ?

Art

edit: looks like it: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/brighter-idea
Edited by Nyal Mellor - 2/4/13 at 12:06pm
post #40 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Personally I don't see high lumen output projectors coming down in price that much mainly because the market for them is so small.

Another idea would be a Display Development HD-5. Brand new DLP projector with a Xenon lamp, 35k without an anamorphic lens. 5,000 lumens uncalibrated output, 10:000:1 contrast, 3 chip 0.95" DMD.

Huh, all new territory for me. I will check those out too, thank you. The specs seem really good on that in comparison with other units at the pricepoint.
post #41 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Huh, all new territory for me. I will check those out too, thank you. The specs seem really good on that in comparison with other units at the pricepoint.

If you are spending this kind of money I would definitely recommend working with a knowledgeable professional on the front projection system design and integration of that into the overall theater design.

Lots to get right with these higher end units:
- typically different lenses are used for different throw distance ranges rather than one size fits all with the lower cost projectors. Some of the mfg's such as SIM2 have gaps between lenses in their lens throw ranges which you have to miss!
- vertical lens shift ranges are reduced over typical consumer models
- high brightness often means higher noise and heat output, with a consequent need to consider hush boxes and design in a projector cooling solution and/or consider the heat load of the projector on HVAC requirements
- power, some of the really brightness units basically need a dedicated line all for themselves e.g. the HD5 mentioned can draw 10A all by itself
post #42 of 374
Where did we get the specs and pricing for the HD5 ? The Display Design site shows the projector coming in 2012.

Art
post #43 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

If you are spending this kind of money I would definitely recommend working with a knowledgeable professional on the front projection system design and integration of that into the overall theater design.

Lots to get right with these higher end units:
- typically different lenses are used for different throw distance ranges rather than one size fits all with the lower cost projectors. Some of the mfg's such as SIM2 have gaps between lenses in their lens throw ranges which you have to miss!
- vertical lens shift ranges are reduced over typical consumer models
- high brightness often means higher noise and heat output, with a consequent need to consider hush boxes and design in a projector cooling solution and/or consider the heat load of the projector on HVAC requirements
- power, some of the really brightness units basically need a dedicated line all for themselves e.g. the HD5 mentioned can draw 10A all by itself

I have researched a bit of that information already..namely lens options and throw distances, etc. As you state, many of the "mass market" units have gaps between them, and others don't have any options. I am doing some reading now about Jim Burns and the DD products. Once the offie quiets down a bit I am going to give them a call.
A dedicated line for the Pj is ok at this point. I am up to installing a 100amp sub-panel for the HT now, and will accomidate whatever I need to. Efficiency is certainly a factor, but with viewing being limited to a few movies a week, it won't make the electric bill unafordable.

Good advice on the hvac consideration...I hadn't realized unitl recently, the amount of heat a system generates in a real room.
post #44 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Where did we get the specs and pricing for the HD5 ? The Display Design site shows the projector coming in 2012.

Art

From my rep.
post #45 of 374
A so-called "4K screen" is just a marketing ploy. Many of the same screen surfaces that were being sold prior to all the 4K buzz came into view are now being labeled as "4K screens" or "4K-ready" by marketing departments not wanting their screens to seem outdated or not future-proof. Screens are either smooth and flat and artifact free or they're not. There is no standard for defining a screen material's ability to reproduce any particular resolution.
post #46 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Where did we get the specs and pricing for the HD5 ? The Display Design site shows the projector coming in 2012.

Art

I was curious about this too. I called the company and left a message for Jim Burns earlier. I will address lots of my concerns with him and see what they can offer as a complete package.

With regard to the 4k screen talk...I'm not sure I know enogh to chime in, but what the heck. If a screen has a certian texture or weave pattern that would keep it from effectively displaying a 4k picture, than it can't. I would also think the opposite to be true..If a screen has a surface which would allow for the image to be displayed with a certian resolution, than it does. Now I have no idea where the limitations of a certain material are, or what type of calculation needs to be done to discern one screens ability to resolve the image is over another. With all that said, I am sure that there are plenty of companies that are marketing screens as 4k that have been around forever, and why wouldn't they?? People buy into the next big thing, and if I sell screens, I want to be sure that everyone who jumps on the 4k bandwagon knows that my screen can do it too. I don't fault anyone for that.
post #47 of 374
Thread Starter 
Well, I spoke to Jim tonight, very nice guy and very infomative talk for me. I guess I didn't realize how much I was asking of a PJ. I am actually going to send him some details on the room, etc. and he has offered to fit a pj that is within my budget to that plan and make suggestions. I will keep updating when I have info for any other folks interested in the Diplay Development gear, and thanks to Nyal for turning me on to it!
post #48 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Well, I spoke to Jim tonight, very nice guy and very infomative talk for me. I guess I didn't realize how much I was asking of a PJ. I am actually going to send him some details on the room, etc. and he has offered to fit a pj that is within my budget to that plan and make suggestions. I will keep updating when I have info for any other folks interested in the Diplay Development gear, and thanks to Nyal for turning me on to it!

Yes let me know how it goes. I'm only carrying SIM2 at the moment but these new lower cost DD projectors could be an awesome addition to the line up.
post #49 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Yes let me know how it goes. I'm only carrying SIM2 at the moment but these new lower cost DD projectors could be an awesome addition to the line up.

It seems that way. From talking with Jim and doing a bit of research, it seems these HD5 pjs are really a much higher dollar piece than the current price tag would indicate.
post #50 of 374
Well I have plenty of experience with the entire DPI line and now the Barco DP4K-23B.

For the budget a Highlite 330-3D HB would work. Should run about 3500-4000 lumens calibrated. The HC version wouldn't quite cut it. Don't be fooled by the contrast numbers. For whatever reason DP quotes the HC units with Dynamic Black On and the HB versions with Dynamic Black Off. The HC does have an internal aperture and a HC lens which helps contrast, but there is not much of a difference between the two units. The HC with Dynamic Black off, probably get 3000:1 instead of the 2000:1 of the HB. With Dynamic Black on they are both probably closer to 10,000:1. This could be had for 30K or less.

The next step up would be to look at the DPI Titan Ref or a DCI machine.

There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to both, but the newer DCI S2K products certainly make a DCI machine more affordable and way more portable.
post #51 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

Well I have plenty of experience with the entire DPI line and now the Barco DP4K-23B.

For the budget a Highlite 330-3D HB would work. Should run about 3500-4000 lumens calibrated. The HC version wouldn't quite cut it. Don't be fooled by the contrast numbers. For whatever reason DP quotes the HC units with Dynamic Black On and the HB versions with Dynamic Black Off. The HC does have an internal aperture and a HC lens which helps contrast, but there is not much of a difference between the two units. The HC with Dynamic Black off, probably get 3000:1 instead of the 2000:1 of the HB. With Dynamic Black on they are both probably closer to 10,000:1. This could be had for 30K or less.

The next step up would be to look at the DPI Titan Ref or a DCI machine.

There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to both, but the newer DCI S2K products certainly make a DCI machine more affordable and way more portable.

Thanks! I have been plugging the number son the DPI machines into the calc as well. They seem to be capable. I was also looking at the new Barco 2k 10sx, I believe. I am a bit apprehensive, just because I don't know what is needed with the machine, or if its an all in one solution. From what I can tell, it comes with everything needed to run it successfully in the home theater. The other thing to consider is that after talking with Jim Burns, the HD5 from DD comes with a lens memory feature and there is no need for an A lens. I'm not sure how good these work in comparison with a good lens/sled combo, but it certainly saves a bit of money. The problem with all of these high end units, for me, is that I have not been able to see any of them in action. All I have been able to audition is mid level Runcos, JVCs top end units etc. I would imagine taht these units offer better performance/picture than those.

I am also making a tough decision between bigger /better speaker setup and spending more on the PJ. If a 10k bump in the PJ budget woud make a world of difference, I could easily live with my newly built Seos design with 15" mains and a 1" comprssion driver. If it would not make a large difference in the video performance, will stay with the original stated budget. In talking with Jim, any step up from the HD5 in the DD line would be multiples of the budget, so that would be out.
post #52 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Thanks! I have been plugging the number son the DPI machines into the calc as well. They seem to be capable. I was also looking at the new Barco 2k 10sx, I believe. I am a bit apprehensive, just because I don't know what is needed with the machine, or if its an all in one solution. From what I can tell, it comes with everything needed to run it successfully in the home theater. The other thing to consider is that after talking with Jim Burns, the HD5 from DD comes with a lens memory feature and there is no need for an A lens. I'm not sure how good these work in comparison with a good lens/sled combo, but it certainly saves a bit of money. The problem with all of these high end units, for me, is that I have not been able to see any of them in action. All I have been able to audition is mid level Runcos, JVCs top end units etc. I would imagine taht these units offer better performance/picture than those.

I am also making a tough decision between bigger /better speaker setup and spending more on the PJ. If a 10k bump in the PJ budget woud make a world of difference, I could easily live with my newly built Seos design with 15" mains and a 1" comprssion driver. If it would not make a large difference in the video performance, will stay with the original stated budget. In talking with Jim, any step up from the HD5 in the DD line would be multiples of the budget, so that would be out.

Well not that you have much choice. If you want a bright picture on the size screen and type that you want then the HD5 looks like the most cost effective way to get there. Are there any DD dealers anywhere? It would be very difficult to see anything in action other than a SIM2 Lumis and maybe a DPI, most of the other brands have very very limited dealer base and most of those dealers won't have a demo unit of the exact PJ you are looking for. I would guess most dealers wouldn't want a 70k projector sitting around in inventory! Prob the easiest way to see one in action is to make a trip to the mfg. I know Wolf can demo their REF units in Berkeley, not sure about the others.
post #53 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Well not that you have much choice. If you want a bright picture on the size screen and type that you want then the HD5 looks like the most cost effective way to get there. Are there any DD dealers anywhere? It would be very difficult to see anything in action other than a SIM2 Lumis and maybe a DPI, most of the other brands have very very limited dealer base and most of those dealers won't have a demo unit of the exact PJ you are looking for. I would guess most dealers wouldn't want a 70k projector sitting around in inventory!.

Seems like a lot of money for something you've never even seen. I'd personally not care for a $70,000 unit sitting around that doesn't perform to my satisfaction even more .

Marc
post #54 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Well not that you have much choice. If you want a bright picture on the size screen and type that you want then the HD5 looks like the most cost effective way to get there. Are there any DD dealers anywhere? It would be very difficult to see anything in action other than a SIM2 Lumis and maybe a DPI, most of the other brands have very very limited dealer base and most of those dealers won't have a demo unit of the exact PJ you are looking for. I would guess most dealers wouldn't want a 70k projector sitting around in inventory! Prob the easiest way to see one in action is to make a trip to the mfg. I know Wolf can demo their REF units in Berkeley, not sure about the others.

It sure seems that way. I actually got a message on a very good deal for a DPI Titan Ref700 for a really good price today as well. I'm not sure if it will be better than the DD HD5, but it would need to be if I was going to pay this kind of money for a demo unit. DD is about 6 hours away from me. Its far, but to be honest, if nothing else comes up closer, I may just head up there. They are also talking about a possible dealer in Manhattan very soon, and I'm only an hour from there, so that would be ideal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarqueeMarc View Post

Seems like a lot of money for something you've never even seen. I'd personally not care for a $70,000 unit sitting around that doesn't perform to my satisfaction even more .

Marc

I agree with you 100%. I am very picky, and it would be a big issue for me if Ibought, ssight unseen, and wasn't happy with it. Hopefully the DD unit will be something I can see very soon. I have about a month until I really "need" to make the purchase, so time will tell. I'm just trying to prepare in advance here. My Runco dealer will bring in the models they are trying to sell, but its kind of pointless becuase they will shine it on a non at screen with 1.5 gain that is only 12ft wide.
post #55 of 374
The DD5 specs look like it being based on a Barco, like the original DDs were/are based on Barco DCi projectors.
post #56 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

Well I have plenty of experience with the entire DPI line and now the Barco DP4K-23B.

For the budget a Highlite 330-3D HB would work. Should run about 3500-4000 lumens calibrated. The HC version wouldn't quite cut it. Don't be fooled by the contrast numbers. For whatever reason DP quotes the HC units with Dynamic Black On and the HB versions with Dynamic Black Off. The HC does have an internal aperture and a HC lens which helps contrast, but there is not much of a difference between the two units. The HC with Dynamic Black off, probably get 3000:1 instead of the 2000:1 of the HB. With Dynamic Black on they are both probably closer to 10,000:1. This could be had for 30K or less.

The next step up would be to look at the DPI Titan Ref or a DCI machine.

There are certainly advantages and disadvantages to both, but the newer DCI S2K products certainly make a DCI machine more affordable and way more portable.

DPI uses a few base chassis, that are made into a large number of models with a variety of lenses, lamps, aperatures, and each year they all change a bit, so many, many models out there, all with subtle differences within each category. It is one of the big names in the larger projector business, good luck on finding the most fitting projector for your room.
post #57 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

The DD5 specs look like it being based on a Barco, like the original DDs were/are based on Barco DCi projectors.

A particular Barco??
post #58 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarqueeMarc View Post

Seems like a lot of money for something you've never even seen. I'd personally not care for a $70,000 unit sitting around that doesn't perform to my satisfaction even more .

Marc

I would imagine 99% of these $$$ projectors are sold sight unseen based on customer's trust of consultant's or dealers recommendation. Most CI companies catering to the top end are selling to the luxury segment where the rules are different than for enthusiasts. Sometime there are 'luxury' enthusiast customers but most times I think the rules are just different. At least that is my opinion based on my time in the industry so far. Maybe they were shown a model lower down in the line and based on that demo were upsold to a higher end model that better met the client's need in terms of screen area and usage. Most CIs are not going to have a demo facility with a 190" screen.
post #59 of 374
In my opinion it's best to go with a brand that actually makes what they sell. Hence my preference would be for the Lumis UNO or the Titan.
post #60 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

In my opinion it's best to go with a brand that actually makes what they sell. Hence my preference would be for the Lumis UNO or the Titan.

Lumis doesn't have enough output for that screen. Do DPI actually make the Titan? The Xenon Barcos are pretty awesome in real life. AFAIK the Wolf REF line is based off a Barco as well.
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