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Need projector capable of lighting up huge screen with great picture. - Page 11

post #301 of 374
My advice in being in this game a long time is to buy the best you can when you need it. Waiting for the next thing is usually disappointing in first gen, new products. Typically first gen products lack some essential features that makes its way into the next generation of that product. Then you're hosed. And still likely a somewhat work in progress. 4K at this point does little for me.

Moreover, most technology is at its pinnacle in performance, price and reliability just before the technology changes and its considered dated.

Art's purchase fits this philosophy perfectly... And he's been at this game a while as well. That's your answer.
post #302 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My advice in being in this game a long time is to buy the best you can when you need it. Waiting for the next thing is usually disappointing in first gen, new products. Typically first gen products lack some essential features that makes its way into the next generation of that product. Then you're hosed. And still likely a somewhat work in progress. 4K at this point does little for me.

Moreover, most technology is at its pinnacle in performance, price and reliability just before the technology changes and its considered dated.

Art's purchase fits this philosophy perfectly... And he's been at this game a while as well. That's your answer.

Well, since you put it that way biggrin.gif I appreciate the advice and experience that guys like you and Art bring to the table for newer enthusiast like me. The other upside is that with the HD5, I can put the largest screen that will fit (prob 16' wide, which will leave about two feet on either side, above and below in the 11'high x 20' wide room). That will actually help with upgraditus because I will need one heck of a 4k light cannon to justify replacing the HD5. I really want the HD and I can afford it, but my concern for new tech was holding me back. Your statement makes perfect sense though, and it will most likely be a number of years before 4k can be affordably, well implemented in the environment I want it in. Now Dan, the baby is on the way(any day now), but pm me when you have time so we can talk dates and $$. It will be a few weeks for me to get out there I'm sure, but I'd like to know exactly where we will stand.
post #303 of 374
I'm pretty busy for the next 3 days, I should be able to get a message off to you by Sunday afternoon.

Dan
post #304 of 374
Thread Starter 
Take your time Dan, I'm on baby watch
post #305 of 374
Yeah Chop I think you are going to just have to figure out what is most important. The HD5 apparently is true state of the art home 2D. So you can light up that screen and enjoy 2D Blu Rays to their fullest for years to come. Just MAKE SURE you don't care about 3D or would be wishing you had the option to show that off.

As for 4K.... my guess, and opinion, is that we aren't going to see any reasonable amount of good 4K content in any form for a few years still. Maybe 2 years at the earliest for there to be widespread availability of some sort of content service with multiple studio support, and at least that long or likely longer for a disc based 4K unit to come out. What you get NOW with 4K is the complete disappearance of pixels from any seating distance at any size screen. This is the worry for me. Once I get a chance to see a DLP on a 160" wide screen I can say more on that.

So I think the real candidates for your dollar are still:

HD5: for best / brightest pure 2D experience - Jeff has a good point about technology being its best right as the next "new" thing is coming out. This is a good example. Apparently terrific custom 1x1 support from both Dan and DD on this unit as well.

DPI Highlite: for a similarly priced unit with about the same brightness, and with 3D added. Also a little quieter. Dan has pointed out that you give up 2D quality in the color and optics to go with this unit.

DPI Titan: Pay a good bit more, in the low/mid 40's range street, and get back most of the 2D quality with very nice optics and better contrast while also having state of the art 3D.

Or the Sony, at half the street price of these, but with substantially less brightness. I am not sure you would like it on a 16ft wide screen, but I think it is still brighter than almost all projectors of any kind that are near its price range. I don't know what screen material you are going with, though. As long as its at least a 1 gain screen you might be relatively OK. Given the PJ you mentioned you have used in the past, I assume you are pretty used to ftL readings in the 10-15 range at the most, so you wouldn't feel let down by going with something in this range again. The Sony gives a likely bit of future proofing (depending on what they do with the upgrade of the unit to new "secure" 4K standards), and you would also know you would never see the pixel structure.

BTW.. my Sony has been sold now, so don't feel you should take my Sony comments with a grain of salt. smile.gif It really is a great unit, especially for the mid teens.
post #306 of 374
Thread Starter 
Thanks Hifi..I tend to get carried away with stuff (overthinking and over purchasing biggrin.gif ). I am considering the Stewart Ultramatte150 based on advice from Mike and a local buddy who owns a shop. I really need to get back out and see one at the proper distance. My front row eyes will be all of 13' away from the screen, so that should slove the issue of perf and the UM150 would give me about 1.3gain so pj choice opens up a bit. I also keep thinking of the comments on how the HD5 is so great for 2d...we are a 2d house. I also can't help but wonder if the depth of color gained by the xenon bulbed HD5 is an edge over the 4k of the Sony for the simple fact that I should see pixel structure at 13, 21 or 28 ft viewing distances anyway.
post #307 of 374
That is true... you shouldnt see pixel structure.. but I would certainly make sure you get a demo with the screen blown up to the size you want before deciding.

The Ultramatte 150 would be great .. that or the 130 .. check the 150 for hotspotting... the 150 would make the Sony have OK brightness for that size, in my opinion (probably not in the opinion of others that like 25ftL minimum).

I think it was mentioned before in this thread, but it seems that no one has much of an answer for "how does the bulb make the colors look different if two projectors are both accurately calibrated with a Lumagen or other great tools to meet the proper color standards?" I understand that UHP bulbs have color drift as they age and Xenon ones don't (or don't much), but assuming both are calibrated, how / why do they differ?

If you are 2d only, I think the HD5 is a great choice. I would also drop back to the Ultramatte 130 material with that PJ. I doubt you would need the extra brightness and the 130 will have less artifacts and no hotspotting. Mike can certainly steer you in the right direction though once he knows your projector. If you get the Sony, I think the 150 screen is indeed better for your size.
post #308 of 374
I've been following the various observations and comments pertaining to the HD5 and I'm curious about a few things. First, has it been stated which Christie platform Jim is using for the HD5?...just wondering if it is a current or discontinued Christie model. Secondly, would this projector be considered "user friendly"...in terms of calibrating and maintaining? The reason I ask is because the Christies I'm familiar with tend to require routine touch up by experienced professionals...certainly so when it comes to switching out irises and recalibrating.

Next question: If, as has been stated, the brightness achieved depends on the iris employed and comes at the expense of contrast, will not a set up that is weighted towards the best obtainable contrast (10,000:1) result in a brightness that is generally obtainable from a comparably-priced 3-chip with UHP lamp...perhaps one with even greater contrast than the Xenon equipped projector and which also includes 3D?

And lastly, if Xenon (DCI) color is thought to be a desirable thing, why not employ color filtering with a UHP-lamped projector to emulate the DCI color space? If it's close, and you get equivalent brightness to that of a Christie/DD which has been weighted towards better contrast, could not an argument be made that a conventional 3-chip UHP projector with color filtering is a more practical solution...one that also brings 3D to the party for when the kids or grand kids might enjoy watching a blockbuster movie in 3D?

Granted, if big brightness (5000+ANSI) is required, you won't likely find a 3-chip (.95) UHP-based projector in the same price range as the DD HD5. They do exist, but as has been noted, they live in the $50-60K range. Of course the Xenon lamps are twice as expensive to replace and you will need to fund a house call periodically if you want the Christie/DD HD5 to perform at optimum, and you'll need to run the air conditioning on overtime, but even taking all that into consideration, there is a cost differential. Thankfully my screen size is such that I need not wrestle with these pros and cons.
post #309 of 374
Xenon lamps are NOT twice as expensive as UHP. As a matter of fact the lamp for the HD5 is about the same cost as each lamp module for our Titan (so half the cost overall). And since xenon's color spectra remains the same over its useful life- recalibration is not necessary. The HD5 can (if the installation allows) increase current to the lamp to maintain screen brightness over the life of the lamp.

Aperture plates are not user seviceable at all. Calibration of the HD5 is not more difficult than any other projector- one just needs the skillset and accurate tools.

Filtering UHP lowers light output significantly, so a 5k lumen projector unfiltered is not 5k lumens after you engage the filter- and you still only approximate xenon light output. Our Titan uses a filtered system, and cannot reproduce exactly what the HD5 does.

As I've recently experienced on a smaller scale using a single chip dlp with better optics than another model (DPI Dvision vs Mvision) lens quality certainly does make a difference. There is NO projector near the price of the HD5 or HD6 that has a lens as high quality as they do.

No, the feature set is certainly lacking 3D, and this projector abundantly demonstrates that there is no free lunch for light output vs contrast- but the intrascene contrast (ANSI as it has been called in the past) is higher than I've seen on any projector under 100k.

Dan
post #310 of 374
I thought I read that the cost of a Xenon lamp replacement was $2K. If this is not the case, I stand corrected.

I agree with you that lenses make a huge difference. Have you seen the Fujinon lens used in the SIM2 3-chip projectors? I suspect it is on par with that in the HD5, but not having seen an HD5 as of yet, I can't testify to this with conviction. I do know that the color management system in the SIM2 is quite user friendly. It would be interesting to compare the HD5 (optimized for contrast) with the UNO3D (same price as the HD5). The SIM2's are known to display deep saturated reds. I wonder if the differences compared to the HD5 Xenon are nuanced or radical?

Do you know if the processing in the HD5 is 10bit or 12bit?
Edited by Pete - 8/10/13 at 12:07pm
post #311 of 374
The lamp can be obtained for around 1500, considering that's about half the price of replacing both lamp modules in a Titan of similar spec- the cost of Xenon is comparable to filtered UHP. The HD5 has 10 bit processing- the included scaler ranges from Iscan Duo through Lumagen Radiance. In our case the processor is a Lumagen XE-3D (one of the available options) - and Art is using the same processor.

I've looked at the UNO3D, and although the machine is spec'ed at up to 3k lumens, I doubt highly that a 280W UHP lamp can compare to a 1kW Xenon for output. I think that 3k number is optimistic. Even my DVision that uses 2x250W UHPs only outputs 2500 lumens. The Teatro 80 is really more comparable to the HD5 when it comes to hardware comparison- and we have at least one testimony stating that HD5>Teatro, and then our testimony that HD5> Titan Reference.

Created with GIMP

As you can see from the graph above, UHP has a very peaky output spectra and needs significant filtering to emulate the spectra output of Xenon- then you need to increase intensity 2-3 fold to equate the output. That's why NEC and Sony use 6+ UHP lamps in their new DCI machines- it takes that much to equate to the 2kW Xenons used in the Christies and Barcos.

Once again, when you look at the price for the HD5 and you look at the competition's abilities, it's a very strong contender. I'm not trying to say that it is THE solution for everyone- 3D fans need not apply, those that cannot accommodate the added noise and heat need not apply.

Sim2's lenses are nice, but without the ability to compare side-by-side it is really hard to compare.

Our new HD5 has been ordered, so shortly we will once again have the ability to demonstrate HD5/Titan Reference side-by-side.

I doubt that I can get my hands on a Lumis ____ to compare....apparently my local rep has forgotten we exist (their loss).

Dan
post #312 of 374
The HT 5000 (Teatro50) has pretty incredible optics IMO this isn't any sort of limitation to the projected image.
post #313 of 374
That contrast was UHP vs Xenon, not a commentary on the optics of the Teatro.

Dan
post #314 of 374
A graph which depicts certain differences in the output of Xenon vs. UHP lamps could mislead some into thinking that one is more capable overall than another. I can't speak to the Titan, having only seen them briefly at dealer shows and at a CEDIA I was fortunate to have attended several years back, but I have owned several SIM2 projectors over the years, and I know that their propensity for color accuracy (REC709/NTSC) is one of their endearing virtues. The UHP lamps I've replaced have cost about $850. Their 12bit processing makes for very watchable 3D, and they are relatively quiet and unobtrusive. Granted, Xenon projectors tend to be brighter which is why you find them in large commercial or institutional venues. But, as you have correctly observed, "there is no free lunch"....tradeoffs do exist.

Putting the question of color accuracy aside...you are probably correct that the 3000ANSI specified for the comparably priced 3-chip UHP model I mentioned is a "best case" scenario -- not unlike DD's 10,000:1 contrast spec. My experience, however, is that at some given screen size (depending on room conditions and screen material), a 2500 or even 2000ANSI brightness with significantly greater native contrast than that of a brighter projector having less contrast can be a better choice than the alternative. And my assertion would further be that the screen size at which this performance delta begins to manifest itself is at a significantly larger screen size than most would imagine possible. Up to that (variable) point, the 2KANSI/high contrast 3-chip DLP will make the typical high brightness/low contrast alternative seem "washed out". Beyond that point, the high brightness/low contrast projector will begin to make its higher-contrast counterpart seem "dim". Exactly where that crossover point lives is largely a matter of taste...such as ones preference for an earthy Bordeaux over a lighter Burgundy...raw horsepower over handling...the analogies -- if not always appropriate -- are endless...
post #315 of 374
I would be interested in a Sim2 if the calibrated lumens really were in the 200 - 2500 range. The Lumis thread suggests the useable lumens is closer to the 1100 mark. Can you point me to some data showing a new Solo 3d or whatever the appropriate current model would be that has a true 2k or more calibrated lumens?
post #316 of 374
FYI, the new, full feature Lumis is up to $60k:

NEW SUPER LUMIS

3D 3-chip Full HD (1080p) DarkChip4™ DLP® chipset • NEW re-designed ALPHAPATH™
light engine • NEW Perfect Fit zoom, focus, and lens shift memory feature (lens-free 2.40:1) •
SIM2 active 3D technology (triple flash 144Hz) • SIM2 PureMovie • SIM2 PureAction• SIM2
PureAction3D • SIM2 DynamicBlack technology • Includes four pairs of VISUS active 3D
glasses • NEW 350W dimmable lamp • Brightness output up to 5,000 ANSI Lumens
depending on lens type • Contrast ratio up to 30,000:1 with DynamicBlack • 2 x HDMI 1.4 •
Live Colors Calibration2 software • Cabinet Color: High-gloss Dark Gray.
Available in High Brightness (5,000 ANSI Lumens) and Extended Contrast (3,800 ANSI
Lumens) versions.
Please specify HB or EC at time of order.

The previous full feature unit was the 3D solo, it is now $55k:
LUMIS 3D SOLO
3D 3-chip Full HD (1080p) DarkChip4™ DLP® chipset • ALPHAPATH™ light engine • SIM2
active 3D technology (triple flash 144Hz) • SIM2 PureMovie • SIM2 PureAction• SIM2
PureAction3D • SIM2 DynamicBlack technology • Includes four pairs of VISUS active 3D
glasses • 280W dimmable lamp • Brightness output up to 3000 ANSI Lumens depending on
lens type • Contrast ratio up to 30,000:1 with DynamicBlack • 2 x HDMI 1.4 • Live Colors
Calibration2 software • Cabinet Color: High-gloss Dark Gray

I don't think these fit your target budget.
post #317 of 374
The SIM2 Lumis UNO 3D ($33K) uses the same light engine and optics as the SOLO (without dynamic black)...same 280w lamp. The older C3X models used less powerful lamps. I think the Runco equivalent would be the X400d and the corresponding DPI would be among the Titans (though more costly).

As for calibrated brightness, the reviewers seldom if ever list this, as there are too many variables. They sometimes will share their measured FL, but this too is fraught with potential pit falls. What they will do is declare if the picture is "detailed", "bright and punchy", "dim", "soft" or somehow wanting in color gamut. That to me is more telling than a number...provided the screen parameters are clearly stated. I take with a grain of salt brightness measurements offered up by some projector owners, as it is impossible to know all the elements that contribute to the numbers cited. My experience has been that the premium DLP projectors that have marketing department-derived specification of 3000ANSI, while unlikely to achieve this in real world conditions, they will generally hold up on screens up to 14' to 16' depending on screen gain plus attention to room and lighting conditions. Above this size, the next tier of projectors ( $50 - $60k) typically need to be employed for best overall performance....or one can opt for a lesser-cost light cannon (such as the HD5) and forfeit a bit of black.
post #318 of 374
I was going by posts from Craig Peer over in the Lumis thread that he was getting around 1k lumens calibrated with a new bulb and less than 900 after a couple hundred hours. That makes me think Sim2 inflates their lumens just as badly as anyone. I would think a 280 watt bulb is a 280 watt bulb, even if some light path efficiencies are realized. There was another poster or two over in that thread citing similar numbers.

I agree that it's necessary to know some parameters when discussing lumens, but most of what we need to know could be summed up with x lumens at x throw at D65. Reviewers don't discuss it because it showcases the lies, or at the very least, extremely creative marketing, like what Sam Runco called Runco lumens back in the day when comparing to competitors. At least that company now gives a rating to a standard, even if it is on a screen size so small that no one would buy their product to display.
Edited by hifiaudio2 - 8/12/13 at 5:39pm
post #319 of 374
Not doubting Craig's numbers, I've seen similar reported. However don't forget these don't have constant aperture lenses. Light output has a linear drop-off with the Lumii depending on throw position. I don't think they've done anything new to their lens designs since the original C3X1080 in that regard. Somewhere buried here I published a comprehensive analysis of the factors that affect light output on the Lumii, and even Sim2 states the light output is affected by the lens choice. Although they don't tell you which ones do what. The general feeling overall was that the T1 lens was the worst in that regard, that's the lens Craig has IIRC. I'd love to have one with all 3 lenses to run through a full array of measurements, but they aren't giving me any loaners these days, or anyone including Dan AFAIK, times are tight with them as compared to days gone by. But in any case, don't forget the light output on the Lumii changes as it did on your Sony. And, the Super Lumis has a bigger bulb. Some of the DPI's have constant aperture lenses, I haven't asked my Display Products guys about the HD5's. You at least have the advantage that the HD5 would "fit" your room with the completion of the hush box. But no 3D.
post #320 of 374
Just a note here - I took my measurements with the lamp power at its lowest setting. I'm not sure what the lumens would be with a new lamp at full 280 watt lamp power with the trim iris open too. Of course, with lamp dimming, if a projector can only meet your foot lambert requirements with a new lamp at full power, IMO, it's underpowered for your setup, as it will only be that bright for a brief moment in time.

I originally had a T2 lens with an extremely good HD conversion lens ( I have a really short throw ). I got a T1 lens sent to me by SIM2 ( easy to change - piece of cake ). I like the T1 just fine. For all practical purposes it's better than the T2 / conversion lens setup. I don't think lumens have changed. The T1 was supposed to be the worst for contrast. For all practical purposes, I see no difference.
post #321 of 374
Thread Starter 
Well, I think may end up bitting the bullet on the HD5! I have been running so many things through my head, including the cost savings of a used unit or less expensive, but less capable unit. I was going to use the leftover funds from buying a lower priced unit to pay my vehicle off, but I guess I can deal with 18 months more payments as a trade off for the HD5! Plus the car is on .9% financing, so I'd be giving money away by paying it off. In the end, the price difference of a used or lesser unit isn't all that much better anyway by the time you factor in the extras.

Dan, the wife is over a week late now. We have a scheduled delivery of Monday if nothing happens prior. Once the baby comes and we get settled, we'll talk about me coming out to see your new HD5. Man, it seems like everything is late...the house build is way over, the baby is way over. I guess the man upstairs saw it as time to teach me some further patience biggrin.gif
post #322 of 374
Ah don't worry... the price of the HD5 will pale in comparison to that baby. I think they say a half million these days per kid....

http://www.babycenter.com/cost-of-raising-child-calculator


Enjoy!

Seriously, though...congrats!
post #323 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Ah don't worry... the price of the HD5 will pale in comparison to that baby. I think they say a half million these days per kid....

http://www.babycenter.com/cost-of-raising-child-calculator


Enjoy!

Seriously, though...congrats!


hahaha..I thought it was even more. It's making the HD5 make more and more sense biggrin.gif

Thanks, we are psyched!
post #324 of 374
good luck,

let me know once things have settled down when you'd like to see it. We expect DD to complete the new HD5 within the next day or so- we're getting the same aperture plate that Art has for our unit- it's cut for 2 variable sizes- factory but different shape, and a roughly 25% reduction max with a cat eye shape. Depending on what we see- I'll be able to change the plate for major cannon or really bright. I think we should still be able to hit the 40s like we did before, but with better blacks. I had 20+ ftL headroom before.

After seeing the Titan back in the system, I'm excited to get the HD5 back again. I just can't get over the xenon color, extra horsepower and nicer lens.

Now we just need someone to pick up the Titan from us. You'd think it would go pretty quickly; 4500 lumens, nice lens, lens memories, less than 1000 hours on the chassis, all for @15k....

Dan
post #325 of 374
Dan or Art::

What are you measuring On/Off with Cats eye aperture and how many lumens? Dan if you put your Titan up on Audiogon or Ebay it will be gobbled up instantly....
post #326 of 374
Ken measured about 3500:1 using the custom aperture at 28ftL output on Art's screen and Lumagen internal window patterns. Last I knew the iris was set to 6 out of 9 positions, and I think that aperture maxes-out at 28% reduction.

Our new one should ship to us tomorrow, so next week we should have the HD5 again and then the Titan can be sold on the 'bay or whatever it takes to move it.

Dan

PS, if I'm wrong on those numbers, hopefully Ken notices this and corrects me- I was unable to reach him prior to posting this and I'm going from memory.
post #327 of 374
Between 3500 and 4000:1 and 29fL This is an angular reflective screen, literally the fL varies as you go from the back to the front row where I sit. We have always used the captain's chair (middle of the front row) as the point to measure since this is where I sit if I have my choice.

Art
post #328 of 374
I know convergence was important to you. Was DD able to dial in the convergence for you to match your HT5000 (which was nearly perfect) ?
post #329 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Between 3500 and 4000:1 and 29fL This is an angular reflective screen, literally the fL varies as you go from the back to the front row where I sit. We have always used the captain's chair (middle of the front row) as the point to measure since this is where I sit if I have my choice.

Art

Thanks Dan and Art, as I suspected these numbers are close to my Titan, last time I checked I was at 24 fl and around 3700:1 on/off....
post #330 of 374
Hifiaudio2 or Chopshop1 should grab Dan's Titan for $15k and call it a day. Titan at 15K can not beat no way no how Price vs Performance
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