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Need projector capable of lighting up huge screen with great picture. - Page 3

post #61 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

I would imagine 99% of these $$$ projectors are sold sight unseen based on customer's trust of consultant's or dealers recommendation. Most CI companies catering to the top end are selling to the luxury segment where the rules are different than for enthusiasts. Sometime there are 'luxury' enthusiast customers but most times I think the rules are just different. At least that is my opinion based on my time in the industry so far. Maybe they were shown a model lower down in the line and based on that demo were upsold to a higher end model that better met the client's need in terms of screen area and usage. Most CIs are not going to have a demo facility with a 190" screen.

Maybe but unless say 50K to 100K USD is chump change for you, then I agree with Marc, I'd want to see it. Literally way worse than buying a $100,000 car strictly from a photograph.eek.gif

Art
post #62 of 374
If you are considering a Barco DP2K-10S projector you could ask around local theaters if they have one or the Christie equivalent Solaria One and if you could come and take a look at it. NEC also has a S2K series model but with two UHP bulbs instead of xenon so it has half the light output of a Barco and might not have the same color accuracy. The S2K series of DCI projectors are really new so not many people have seen them in action.
post #63 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Maybe but unless say 50K to 100K USD is chump change for you, then I agree with Marc, I'd want to see it. Literally way worse than buying a $100,000 car strictly from a photograph.eek.gif

Art
Seriously, I don't think that I would expect to be able to see a product like this in action, unless I was willing to fly out to where they had one playing. Otherwise I believe the decision would be up to you, seen or unseen. Most of my gear is bought unseen and untested. Sure I have made a few mistakes, but it comes with the territory.
post #64 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Seriously, I don't think that I would expect to be able to see a product like this in action, unless I was willing to fly out to where they had one playing. Otherwise I believe the decision would be up to you, seen or unseen. Most of my gear is bought unseen and untested. Sure I have made a few mistakes, but it comes with the territory.

How much is a plane ticket ? I'm on my third projection sytem and I looked at what I bought each time first. If you think the specs are enough or even using what a dealer feels is "good" then unless you have pretty low standards you run a good risk of having buyers remorse...a pretty hefty one. What I'd do if I were the OP is use what we offer here as the barest starting point then go look a the final candidates after research. A few days of travel might save years of regrets. This is what I've done since '97 and to say that it's worked out would be a huge understatement

Art
post #65 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

How much is a plane ticket ? I'm on my third projection sytem and I looked at what I bought each time first. If you think the specs are enough or even using what a dealer feels is "good" then unless you have pretty low standards you run a good risk of having buyers remorse...a pretty hefty one. What I'd do if I were the OP is use what we offer here as the barest starting point then go look a the final candidates after research. A few days of travel might save years of regrets. This is what I've done since '97 and to say that it's worked out would be a huge understatement

Art

I agree 100% Art, and appreciate the input! I have gotten some great suggestions here for companies that I would not have even known about otherwise. I will spend the $$ on a ticket to see them, as you did. Most of the shops I talk to have the sense about them that clients for these type of products will always just take their recommendation because they are their persoanl a/v advisor. I am not even close to "that guy". I am a picky person, I know my budget is limited for this one, but $30-$45k is a huge purchase for me, and I can't afford to make a mistake.
post #66 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Maybe but unless say 50K to 100K USD is chump change for you, then I agree with Marc, I'd want to see it. Literally way worse than buying a $100,000 car strictly from a photograph.eek.gif

Very true! I would want to see it too.

I was just trying to make the point that I don't think it is very easy to see these types of projectors in action in a meaningful way. Once you get past the Lumis leveI the distribution just isn't there, nor are demo facilities. Very few theaters have 190" screens, and I would guess most mfgs don't even have a 190" screen set up for demos!

Most people buying these types of projectors are trusting the recommendations of their CI who has maybe demoed a model lower down the line or maybe demoed a similar model on a smaller screen.

CEDIA Expo is probably the closest opportunity you would get to being able to see these types of projectors in one place. Even then it's unlikely SIM2 would bring their 4K model, DPI would bring their Titan, Wolf their REF, etc. And none of them will have a 190" screen.

Are DD going to hook up their HD to a 190" 1.0 AT screen?
post #67 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Lumis doesn't have enough output for that screen

Huh?...if there's no ambient light issues, a Lumis can light up a big screen with a little gain (14 - 16ft). I thought there was a budget ($30-40K?). Light cannon Barcos and Christies are too expensive. And the affordable super bright projectors often are weighted towards brightness at the expense of contrast and color saturation.
post #68 of 374
big screen.... always the issue of lumens VERY QUICKLY needed as size increases.
why not going "safe" with perhaps the new Panasonic Laser dlp for $5,000 (3,000 lumens but let's say it's 2,000 calibrated?) and wait it out 1-2 years down the road for a 4K 2,000 lumens (real ones) ? tip: place the pj as close as possible to the screen, will save you 25-50% lost lumens otherwise...your money...
rolleyes.gif

not sure especially for such large screens, going with a fabric-based model was the best choice..


Those JVCs that your seller you mentioned, talked about, forget it: just good for 100-120'' maximum and in a dark hole room to extract those big on/off ratios...

True it's a pain to see big toys in demos....got to ask your dealer to set up special demos with his suppliers.
post #69 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Huh?...if there's no ambient light issues, a Lumis can light up a big screen with a little gain (14 - 16ft). I thought there was a budget ($30-40K?). Light cannon Barcos and Christies are too expensive. And the affordable super bright projectors often are weighted towards brightness at the expense of contrast and color saturation.

No way on a 16' wide 1.0 screen, you'd be under 10fL in no time.Lumis really is best suited for a screen around 12' wide stretching a bit to 13'-14' IMO

Marc
post #70 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Huh?...if there's no ambient light issues, a Lumis can light up a big screen with a little gain (14 - 16ft). I thought there was a budget ($30-40K?). Light cannon Barcos and Christies are too expensive. And the affordable super bright projectors often are weighted towards brightness at the expense of contrast and color saturation.

He wants to use a 0.98 spec gain screen. There are specifications for this stuff and if you want to ignore them fair enough. I can only say he will not hit SMPTE / THX specs with a Lumis at end of bulb life.
post #71 of 374
The 1200 unmodded could be had at or a somewhat above that 40K budget, there are the small chip units 6K lumens (the 8K are well within budget, not sure about the 12 or de 14K triple flash unit) at below 20K including lens (Canadian rep trying to sell somewhere here on one quite some time ago), and the new IMB-less 10S unit. Of course these are not true lightcannons in today's terms, but should be able to do a 5 meter screen as specified.

No Way the Panasonic 3500 lumens €2900,- plus tax LASER projector can do large screens, I have seen it at full blast at ISE (the 1080P 370 model), and if put in a dark(er) room those 3500 lumens would have been enough for the chosen screensize (2.5 meter wide max?), in a lighter environment it was bright enough (only just) for the presentation on hand, but not for engaging video.
post #72 of 374
The LASER unit is on permanent display at Christie HQ in Canada I was told at ISE the other week.

Sim2 wasn't at the stand number listed in the catalog, but they probably had a demoroom, as I did see the Sim2 guy from Germany walking on the showfloor, he usually does the demo's, but I didn't have time to go and look for it;-). Wolf was supposed to be there according to pre-show info, but wasn't listed i the online exhibitor list. But the big names were all there, just lucky we have two major local show's ISE and IBC.

I Believe the Stewart microperf with a light gain, at ISE, was 4.5 meters wide at the largest unmasked area. I would say it required all the lumens it received from the toned down DD modded Barco 25K used.
Edited by donaldk - 2/8/13 at 8:28pm
post #73 of 374
Thread Starter 
It looks like I will the opprotunity to view some units soon. DD is supposed to have a unit in NYC soon, so I can drive an hour and see that. Now I'm not sure if it will have a 190" to shine it on or not yet, but it will give me a chance to see the other aspects either way. I may also fly out ot a couple of places to see some other units. My local Runco dealer is going to have some of the higher end models brought in by the rep, as he thinks they will be a good fit. Tehy are going to have to impress the heck out of me though, now that I have been made aware of some of these other manufacturers that specialize in units like this.
post #74 of 374
Runco does rebadge 3 chip Christies, only not the highest end Christies last time I looked.
post #75 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Runco does rebadge 3 chip Christies, only not the highest end Christies last time I looked.

Interesting, I did not know that. I wonder what models of Christie units are used in what model Runcos..?? I have a X400 brought in to the local shop to view in the next couple of weeks.
post #76 of 374
I can confirm what Art said. I traveled to Detroit to visit Art's wonderful theater and Jeff's (thebland) theater as well as Ash Sharma's theater in Texas (I live in Connecticut, an hour outside of NY).

I am actually deep into the design of my theater which will be fairly similar to yours. 4-way masking, 3 rows (15 seats), 19' screen (at the most - but mostly sitting around 16' - I wanted the extra real estate for variable image sizes). Probably will go for a Christie or Barco DCI (though their on/off isn't very good) but there's little choice at this size screen.

Thanks to Art & Jeff for their inspirations - they were essential. It's well worth the expense & taking the time for the study.

-Rob
post #77 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post

I can confirm what Art said. I traveled to Detroit to visit Art's wonderful theater and Jeff's (thebland) theater as well as Ash Sharma's theater in Texas (I live in Connecticut, an hour outside of NY).

I am actually deep into the design of my theater which will be fairly similar to yours. 4-way masking, 3 rows (15 seats), 19' screen (at the most - but mostly sitting around 16' - I wanted the extra real estate for variable image sizes). Probably will go for a Christie or Barco DCI (though their on/off isn't very good) but there's little choice at this size screen.

Thanks to Art & Jeff for their inspirations - they were essential. It's well worth the expense & taking the time for the study.

-Rob

Awesome!! I am planning a bit of travel as well. I am in CT about an hour from NYC myself. Hopefully the DD units will be on display in the city in the next couple of weeks. My local will have a Runco for me soon, and he is working on getting a DPI in too. I am going to be in Atlantic City on business next week and gonna check out any shops I can find there too.
post #78 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

He wants to use a 0.98 spec gain screen. There are specifications for this stuff and if you want to ignore them fair enough. I can only say he will not hit SMPTE / THX specs with a Lumis at end of bulb life.

Oh...OK...I missed that detail. It seems to me that rather than doubling the projector budget in order to have a unity gain screen, it makes more sense to compromise slightly and go with a 1.3 gain screen...something like StudioTek 130 or Cinema Vision or BriteWhite. Either that or cut the screen size down a couple ft.
post #79 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Awesome!! I am planning a bit of travel as well. I am in CT about an hour from NYC myself. Hopefully the DD units will be on display in the city in the next couple of weeks. My local will have a Runco for me soon, and he is working on getting a DPI in too. I am going to be in Atlantic City on business next week and gonna check out any shops I can find there too.

Where in CT are you? (I'm in Weston).
post #80 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Oh...OK...I missed that detail. It seems to me that rather than doubling the projector budget in order to have a unity gain screen, it makes more sense to compromise slightly and go with a 1.3 gain screen...something like StudioTek 130 or Cinema Vision or BriteWhite. Either that or cut the screen size down a couple ft.

Not an option for me, as I have vied the Stewart microperfs and they just don't do it for me as a screen. I really don't want to cut down the screen size either, so a mandatory budget bump may be in the cards. I would hat eto spend $40k for a pj and screen that I am almost perfectly happy with when I can spend say, $60k and love it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post

Where in CT are you? (I'm in Weston).

I am in North Haven.
post #81 of 374
I'm curious - what is it about the Stewart screen you didn't like?

-Rob
post #82 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hahn View Post

I'm curious - what is it about the Stewart screen you didn't like?

-Rob

I just get wrapped up in the fact that I can see the perfs at much further distances than I like. I got to see them at a couple local shops with a couple different projectors. It's been every bit of six months since, but I remember being like,"nah, that ones not for me". I could easily go with Seymour's Center Stage too, which is 1.2 gain. Chris actually says it performs at more than 1.2 in reality. I have not been able to confirm one way or another.
post #83 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I just get wrapped up in the fact that I can see the perfs at much further distances than I like. I got to see them at a couple local shops with a couple different projectors. It's been every bit of six months since, but I remember being like,"nah, that ones not for me". I could easily go with Seymour's Center Stage too, which is 1.2 gain. Chris actually says it performs at more than 1.2 in reality. I have not been able to confirm one way or another.

Not that your other screen choices aren't great and may perform better than the Stewart for your needs but remember pixel size will increase with image size but perfs do not. The larger the screen the less likely it is that you will see the perfs since your closest seating distance increases with image size. I can see my perfs at about 8' from the screen and this would be a problem with a 10' screen but not a 14' one or in your case 16' . Just something to consider.


Art
post #84 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Not that your other screen choices aren't great and may perform better than the Stewart for your needs but remember pixel size will increase with image size but perfs do not. The larger the screen the less likely it is that you will see the perfs since your closest seating distance increases with image size. I can see my perfs at about 8' from the screen and this would be a problem with a 10' screen but not a 14' one or in your case 16' . Just something to consider.


Art

Good point Art, thanks for your thoughts. That may acutally change things a bit. I have to get a look at the Stewart again to determine that and what, if any issues I have with the screen. The Center stage should only be .1 less gain than the 1.3 micro form what I can tell though.

Your point may actually be why I didn't like the Stewart to beign with. I viewed it the first time at a local shop with about a ten foot screen at about a 10 or 12 ft viewing distance. In haste, I just wrote them off at that point.
post #85 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

How much is a plane ticket ? I'm on my third projection sytem and I looked at what I bought each time first. If you think the specs are enough or even using what a dealer feels is "good" then unless you have pretty low standards you run a good risk of having buyers remorse...a pretty hefty one. What I'd do if I were the OP is use what we offer here as the barest starting point then go look a the final candidates after research. A few days of travel might save years of regrets. This is what I've done since '97 and to say that it's worked out would be a huge understatement

Art
That is what I was trying to imply, if you want to check one out, get on a plane and see it yourself. Otherwise, the buck stops at you if you buy unseen. I buy most of my gear unseen and I have made a few mistakes, but the more expensive gear I would go and see.
post #86 of 374
Hey Chopshop,

I run a Sony Vw1000 on a Enlightor 4k scope screen that is 160" wide. The true gain of that screen is about .84. Measured with a Colormunki spectro and Calman 5, about 35 hours on the bulb, with the projector at very close to minimum throw (highest light output) and calibrated, I get about 11ftL on a 100IRE pattern.

If I push contrast close to max, which clips whiter than white but doesnt really clip 235 and below, I get close to 13 ftL.

So its going to get dimmer than I like once the bulb gets some real age. Luckily my room is very much a black hole so I can live with a little dimmer than reference and still be happy.
post #87 of 374
11 foot lamberts? I like my picture more like 20 foot lamberts. eek.gif
post #88 of 374
I find more than about 17-18 gets uncomfortable in my room.,

I would like to have 17-18 though.
post #89 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Good point Art, thanks for your thoughts. That may acutally change things a bit. I have to get a look at the Stewart again to determine that and what, if any issues I have with the screen. The Center stage should only be .1 less gain than the 1.3 micro form what I can tell though.

Your point may actually be why I didn't like the Stewart to beign with. I viewed it the first time at a local shop with about a ten foot screen at about a 10 or 12 ft viewing distance. In haste, I just wrote them off at that point.

If you are prepared to bump up the budget on the projector to attain greater horsepower, you might take a look at an AT material that Vutec calls SoundScreen. It's a unity gain screen but it has a very tight and relatively smooth vinyl-coated weave. I'm sure if you called them and asked for a swatch of it, they'd send it to you.

Also, as an FYI, there is a high brightness iteration of the LUMIS. It's called the PROC4 and they rate it at 4500 lumens. If you are ever down in south Florida, they have a demo area in their facility which they use for "show-me" situations. I went down to see the M.150 before I pulled the trigger.
post #90 of 374
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Hey Chopshop,

I run a Sony Vw1000 on a Enlightor 4k scope screen that is 160" wide. The true gain of that screen is about .84. Measured with a Colormunki spectro and Calman 5, about 35 hours on the bulb, with the projector at very close to minimum throw (highest light output) and calibrated, I get about 11ftL on a 100IRE pattern.

If I push contrast close to max, which clips whiter than white but doesnt really clip 235 and below, I get close to 13 ftL.

So its going to get dimmer than I like once the bulb gets some real age. Luckily my room is very much a black hole so I can live with a little dimmer than reference and still be happy.

Thanks for the info! Wow, that's surprising, as Chris always told me it was actually higher than advertised. I guess the Sony probably won't work for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

If you are prepared to bump up the budget on the projector to attain greater horsepower, you might take a look at an AT material that Vutec calls SoundScreen. It's a unity gain screen but it has a very tight and relatively smooth vinyl-coated weave. I'm sure if you called them and asked for a swatch of it, they'd send it to you.

Also, as an FYI, there is a high brightness iteration of the LUMIS. It's called the PROC4 and they rate it at 4500 lumens. If you are ever down in south Florida, they have a demo area in their facility which they use for "show-me" situations. I went down to see the M.150 before I pulled the trigger.

I will take a look at that, thank you for the info on it. I may just do that..a $200 ticket is a lot cheaper than a $40k mistakes
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