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Petition to Behringer: Please create a stand alone, home theater focused, DSP similar to INuke's... - Page 3

post #61 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jindrak View Post

Again, very few people are going to see the need to spend $500 for a sub eq system (that can only EQ 2 subs at that) other than enthusiasts. The need just isn't big enough right now.

Well, technically it can EQ 2 channels, not just 2 subs. Most people will find 2 channels of DSP sufficient, I'm guessing. Heck you can get good room correction with 1 channel.
post #62 of 104
Thread Starter 
not much chance of this happening without more interest than was garnered here. rolleyes.gifredface.gif
post #63 of 104
Probably not. Hit up Behringer directly but I doubt that would grab much traction. The DCX that is currently available is a very nice device.

There is also the MiniDSP if you want that modern computerized interface.
post #64 of 104
Thread Starter 
I did

First post.

The dcx2496 is a dinosaur. That's about like saying I'd like a new computer, and the salesman saying we have this Tandy 1000 here on sale. It works great. It can word process with the best of them. Why do you need anything newer?

Um newer means updated gui, updated real time editing, filters to 10hz, voltage limiting, and usb instead of serial connectors. I was pretty unimpressed with the dcx2496. The inuke and mini dsp are impressive by comparison. One mans opinion.

I'd also rather buy from behringer than the company that sells the minidsp. For a couple reasons. Free software updates and downloads, fewer restrictions, better support, greater trust established.

Minidsp is nice, but if the same product was avail from behringer, I'm buying from them.
post #65 of 104
Seems like a no brainer, take the current DSP from from the iNuke and tweek as a stand alone box. Not very difficult or expensive for Behringer. They must know the large number of units sold for ht vice pro audio. Dropping usable range down to 10 Hz would be sweet. I have a mini DSP but hate having to hook up my old crappy laptop to make adjustments. Also has the lack of internal power supply.
post #66 of 104
Heheh. Hey, Archaea and I already went through this. Nothing has changed and I doubt Behringer is very interested when they have the DCX already which works great (for everyone else).

Now... that being said, would I like a new version of the DCX with all these features? Of course!!!
post #67 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I did

First post.

The dcx2496 is a dinosaur. That's about like saying I'd like a new computer, and the salesman saying we have this Tandy 1000 here on sale. It works great. It can word process with the best of them. Why do you need anything newer?

Um newer means updated gui, updated real time editing, filters to 10hz, voltage limiting, and usb instead of serial connectors. I was pretty unimpressed with the dcx2496. The inuke and mini dsp are impressive by comparison. One mans opinion.

+ eleventy bazillion. Seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'd also rather buy from behringer than the company that sells the minidsp. For a couple reasons. Free software updates and downloads, fewer restrictions, better support, greater trust established.

MiniDSP is nice, but if the same product was avail from Behringer, I'm buying from them.

I've had no issues with either company. MiniDSP has been actively supporting their product, with several significant updates to the software provided for free. Is it perfect? Nope, not quite.

There has been at least one update to the 3000DSP's firmware and software since I purchased mine. No issues getting it or installing it. Was hoping to see a 10 Hz filter limit, but no dice.

Were there a standalone product from Behringer that provided the functionality that the iNuke DSP and MiniDSP does, without the issues that either one has? Sure, I'd consider it. The integrated DSP in the iNuke is so close to what I want, but just not quite there.

To be fair - the iNuke is in my HT system, and sees daily use, my MiniDSP isn't, and doesn't.
post #68 of 104
Thread Starter 
The minidsp software packages and hardware options for purchase are confusing to pretty much everyone. I get pm'ed a lot to answer questions and I don't even own one!!! I've probably got 20 pm's asking for help on the subject - AT LEAST, and again - I don't even own one, and never post in those threads...It's just random people who encounter my name in other threads and seek assistance from somebody because that device is not very user friendly to get started --- sort of like the DCX-2496. wink.gif

Then there's the minidsp software download limitations. Carp bought the hardware and software a year ago or so. He wanted to download it at my house and he logged in and it didn't say anywhere where he could download it in his account options. It was on the weekend - so of course the company wasn't open. Apparently you have a specific version you have to use, and it's not free, and you can't download unlimited times. We called around to some friends and determined that he needed to find his original e-mail link to re-download the mini-dsp software. He found the original old e-mail and clicked the link and it said it was only valid for 90 days. It appeared he had to purchase the software again. I figured KCNitro07 had bought the same unit and maybe his software would work. We contacted Nelson and he e-mailed us his saved installer and it did work. But what in the world? That experience alone is a huge turnoff for me to be a future consumer of the minidsp. I've downloaded Behringer DSP software a dozen times --- no cost, no strings, install as often as you want. Feel free to review INuke DSP software before you even purchasing the hardware. Excellent.

lilmike - What else have you found the INuke software missing outside of a Linkwitz Transformer function and sub 20hz manipulation options? I love that it (like the minidsp) adjusts all settings in realtime, and that you can easily watch signal lights and amp levels through the software if you don't have visual access to front panel. It's just a darn slick interface...One of the better tech gadget interfaces I've used on any device --- and that says a lot in the A/V industry that ironically historically couldn't give two craps about user interface - but would strive like mad to have the best picture or sound quality.

Scott you only like your torture chamber originated DCX 2496 interface because you're a battle hardened scab. wink.gif
For the rest of us, a interface that wasn't designed for windows 95, allows for realtime changes without 'pushing' the change, and uses a physical interface newer than a 1/4 century old would be great...(serial cable? -- really? -- that isn't even an option on new laptops for the last ...uh... decade).



vs




biggrin.gif


I'm wit cha, I ain't mad at cha
Got nuttin but love for ya, do your thing boy
Edited by Archaea - 11/15/13 at 7:10pm
post #69 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

serial cable? -- really? -- that isn't even an option on new laptops for the last ...uh... decade
My near new Dell lappy has a optional module on the bottom that adds amongst other things a serial port. I use it a lot at work because of the thousands of devices we still have in service that use a serial interface. Hell, I also added it to my just built 4770 based PC. Behringer also include it because you can control the devices from a long distance away which you can't do easily with USB. I've also found serial to be very robust and reliable, which I can't say for USB, all the time. Besides, if you only need to talk to a serial controlled device from a PC occasionally, buy a USB/Serial adapter for about $5.
post #70 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Scott you only like your torture chamber originated DCX 2496 interface because you're a battle hardened scab. wink.gif

Ahahah! I appreciate that. As my boy LTD02 often refers, I guess I am part of an advanced class. So yeah maybe what is okay for me isn't for others. Buuttt.....

For the rest of us, a interface that wasn't designed for windows 95, allows for realtime changes without 'pushing' the change, and uses a physical interface newer than a 1/4 century old would be great...(serial cable? -- really? -- that isn't even an option on new laptops for the last ...uh... decade).

... Why not just .... ahem.... not use the crappy computer interface and ... I dunno... use the front controls? They make perfect sense to me but ... oh right. redface.gif





biggrin.gif


Honestly. In that comparison picture. The DCX software looks far easier to me and on my eyes. Agh!
post #71 of 104
the inuke software is super easy scott. can be downloaded for free. very intuitive. i think they just copied jbl hiqnet. behringer is good at copying.

one thing that wouldn't work is voltage limiting as that has to be tied to the amp in some way, so you'd be back to db limiting the signal which is the same thing but you often don't know where you are calibrated.

linkwitz transform can be done with parametric eq and the shelf filter, so the capability is there if you really want it.

some sub 20hz filters are possible with workarounds. the most commonly asked for 10hz highpass is possible with a two step process.

it would be quite nice in a stand alone product, perhaps 8 in 8 out or something like that...
post #72 of 104
Count me in. I'd be interested in a stand alone DSP.
post #73 of 104
Not enough money for Behringer to cater to a small niche market of HT enthusiasts.
post #74 of 104
^^ true.

the target audience could be the same as uses the dcx2496, which is pretty diverse and not limited to ht guys at all. more inputs/outputs, more features, and particularly the inuke interface is the idea. that's all we are talking about here...
post #75 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

...snip...

lilmike - What else have you found the INuke software missing outside of a Linkwitz Transformer function and sub 20hz manipulation options? I love that it (like the minidsp) adjusts all settings in realtime, and that you can easily watch signal lights and amp levels through the software if you don't have visual access to front panel. It's just a darn slick interface...One of the better tech gadget interfaces I've used on any device --- and that says a lot in the A/V industry that ironically historically couldn't give two craps about user interface - but would strive like mad to have the best picture or sound quality.

...snip...

You've hit most of mine, add unbalanced to balanced in there (unless I missed it), as well as a ground lift on the signal side to kill hum. Another addition? An REW filter import would be nice, but I think that is more of an REW thing, not an iNuke thing. It is not a big deal to manually set filters, but the keyed in values don't always stick. Seriously, with the GUI, twisting a tiny knob with the mouse to set filters is sort of silly. If there is a mouse connected, there is also a keyboard.

Honestly - the biggest issue for me is the limit to the low corner. Though I love Behringer's all in one implementation of DSP in the amp, the super cool variable limiter setup, and the overall interface and usability, I just can't recommend a product when it chops off a half octave or more of real extension for some folks. Even in my case - where my sub's corner is near the filter corner, the lowest setting (without combining filters) costs me about 6 dB at 20 Hz, I've measured with and without. Drop the low corner to 10 Hz and they'd have a real winner for HT users, with no significant development cost or harm to their customers in the pro-sound arena. As far as I can tell, this is a programming issue, not a hardware one. My measurements show that the electronics are flat to 10Hz, and when I "fool" the DSP with a multiple filter approach, I can get close to what I want as far as a lower highpass. This is not a hardware problem.

All they have to do is change the numbers in the software and firmware. MiniDSP has already done that for us.

Seriously - if you get off the train at 20 Hz, and need less than a kilowatt, the 3000DSP is hard to beat for the $$. Grab the amp, add an $8 fan and a $20 Powerswitch Tail, and for less than $260 shipped (if you get lucky and score a great deal), you have an amp that has a very good integrated DSP, no gain structure issues to speak of, can be remotely switched, delivers legit power without popping circuit breakers, and is dead silent. The hard drive in my TivoHD is the loudest thing in my system now, and the last time I checked (after watching a few scenes in Avengers or Iron Man at somewhere north of -10 on the main volume) my iNuke was over 30 degrees cooler than my AVR, and both were well within reasonable limits. Nope - not a Speakerpower, but my 3000DSP is plenty adequate for me for now.

I'd love a standalone option for the DSP, as I have several other amps without integrated DSP that will be put into service once the new theater is finished. I will need a DSP to EQ and highpass them.

As far as downloading the MiniDSP plugins? That's easy. Log in to MiniDSP.com, then select user downloads, then select MiniDSP plugins. If you bought the plugin, it is there on that list. I just confirmed this, worked fine for me.
post #76 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

... I just can't recommend a product when it chops off a half octave or more of real extension for some folks.

I thought it doesn't chop them off, it just doesn't allow direct manipulation.

Why doesn';t LTD's workaround work for you?
post #77 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I thought it doesn't chop them off, it just doesn't allow direct manipulation.

Why doesn't LTD's workaround work for you?

Correct - it doesn't chop things off if the highpass isn't applied. Since I run a tapped horn sub that needs a highpass when pushed (and I have been known to push things), a proper highpass isn't optional. My larger tapped horns (including the one I am listening to) all require lower highpass filters than the current implementation of the iNuke 3000DSP software can do.

I've tried stacking filters, LTD02's approach works fine, but it results in a 2nd order slope, which isn't quite steep enough for me, I can still manage to get myself into trouble.
Also - the shallow slope doesn't really gain me much, because I'm not moving the corner all that much lower than the factory limit, so when done, it's really about the same as the result I get with a higher-order 20 Hz highpass.

If I recall, Ricci tweaked multiple filters to get closer to a 4th order slope at about 14 Hz, but that took trial and error effort and measuring, which is something I have not had much time for lately.

Since this whole setup is temporary, and I regularly grab the amp for testing other stuff, I'll readily admit that I have just punched the easy button, set it at 20 Hz, with as steep a slope as possible, and rolled with it. Might be leaving a bit on the table, but at the moment, I'd rather be watching movies than messing with DSP settings. I'm convinced that the 20 Hz lower limit in the iNuke DSP software is arbitrary, based on the perceived "limit" of human hearing. It could be set lower without significant effort, simply change the lower limit of the variable. At least in the case of the MiniDSP, once above 10 Hz, the DSP doesn't care, a biquad is a biquad.

As far as other folks? Accurate measurements of amp response can be a challenge, I've let the smoke out of a few sound cards in the process, and I sorta know what I am doing. I wouldn't recommend a multiple-filter approach without measurements, and not everyone can do that. That's why I said "some folks" above. Not everyone can measure their junk to make this work. It is far easier to just push a button, click a mouse, or twist a knob.

Honestly - this is a software limitation, it can be a software fix. Such a fix would turn the iNuke DSP, which is already a good series of products into what would be some truly great choices for home theater use, and the change would have zero impact on the other uses of the amp. Seriously, we're talking about up to 2 KW/4ohm/stereo of power at less than $500 street? And that price includes a fully-functional integrated DSP that has no gain-structure issues and incorporates some of the coolest limiters I've ever played with? Sign me up, I'll wave in a pair today!!!

Before I do - what's the catch, because this sounds a bit too good to be true???

Oh, yeah, I can't apply any filters below 20 Hz without tricking the software, and that is a kludge at best. This limitation may not matter to most of the people that buy the iNukeDSP amps, but it matters a lot to me, as well as a lot of the other nutjob regulars here.

Even with this fundamental limitation, I own and use an iNuke 3000DSP.

With my current sub, I'm not missing too much. I still have a couple years until I need to worry about equipping my proper theater, we'll see what is available when that time comes. I will still need a highpass, and I can just about guarantee that the iNuke DSP's 20 Hz limit will mean that an octave is left on the table, which is unacceptable to me. At that time, I'll do my homework and choose the right tool for the job at hand.
post #78 of 104
For third order a passive line level xover is a snap for most DIYers and should be under $20; if you can make a passive speaker level xover, you can easily make this. A 4th order LR is going to cost about twice that and take some more work, but probably 4 hrs on the bench to complete.
Wishing for a commercial DSP to do sub 20Hz, especially from someone like Behringer is about the same as wishing for a pet Unicorn.
post #79 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

For third order a passive line level xover is a snap for most DIYers and should be under $20; if you can make a passive speaker level xover, you can easily make this. A 4th order LR is going to cost about twice that and take some more work, but probably 4 hrs on the bench to complete.

I have considered these approaches. The Marchand Kits are also reasonably priced and work well. ESP also offers some options, and there are a few sketchier choices on ebay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Wishing for a commercial DSP to do sub 20Hz, especially from someone like Behringer is about the same as wishing for a pet Unicorn.

If we don't ask, we'll never get anything. It would be nice to have an all in one option, but that may never come. Fortunately there are at least some options. A MiniDSP will do what I need. Yeah, it has limitations, but I know what they are and I know how to work with them.
post #80 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the inuke software is super easy scott. can be downloaded for free. very intuitive. i think they just copied jbl hiqnet. behringer is good at copying.

one thing that wouldn't work is voltage limiting as that has to be tied to the amp in some way, so you'd be back to db limiting the signal which is the same thing but you often don't know where you are calibrated.

linkwitz transform can be done with parametric eq and the shelf filter, so the capability is there if you really want it.

some sub 20hz filters are possible with workarounds. the most commonly asked for 10hz highpass is possible with a two step process.

it would be quite nice in a stand alone product, perhaps 8 in 8 out or something like that...

I think you should link your thread on creating one of these to you sig. Not only is it easy to do, but too many people don't realize they have the ability to do it!
Quote:
Um newer means updated gui, updated real time editing, filters to 10hz, voltage limiting, and usb instead of serial connectors.

All these things. I want all these things....

I have to come back and recant my previous post as I completely love my DCX, and like Scott, I really like the GUI as it is. But with both of my systems, there hasnt been a second that I haven't yearned for 10hz (or lower) EQ-ability. It is needed, and really should be that hard to come with either an update or a new unit that can do it. Heck the mic220 has the abliity to EQ at 10hz (although analog knob, not DSP filter) so why couldn't Berry hook it up with the option along with all of the other cool stuff the DCX does?!?! biggrin.gif
post #81 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I've tried stacking filters, LTD02's approach works fine, but it results in a 2nd order slope, which isn't quite steep enough for me, I can still manage to get myself into trouble.

I agree, I also have a TH and would like a steeper HP.

Why not just double up on all of the filters to double the order?
post #82 of 104
I'll sign:-)

* I'd prefer 8, 12 and 16 channels to be able to eq an entire system with multiple subs using REW, height/wide channels
* active XO ability
* I'd prefer 8-12 PEQ pr channel
* good enough DACs to use full range
* run silent
* RCA or XLR or both
* routing of the signal

Pretty much a cheap silent version of the BSS sound Web Dsp:-)
post #83 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by clausdk View Post

I'll sign:-)

* I'd prefer 8, 12 and 16 channels to be able to eq an entire system with multiple subs using REW, height/wide channels
* active XO ability
* I'd prefer 8-12 PEQ pr channel
* good enough DACs to use full range
* run silent
* RCA or XLR or both
* routing of the signal

Pretty much a cheap silent version of the BSS sound Web Dsp:-)
You need an HTPC with JRiver Media Center and a 16 channel DAC.
post #84 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I agree, I also have a TH and would like a steeper HP.

Why not just double up on all of the filters to double the order?

That might work, though I'd have to double the order of the highpass because there is only one available per channel.

I'll give that a try when I have some time to mess with things.
post #85 of 104
"That might work, though I'd have to double the order of the highpass because there is only one available per channel."

might have to use a little bit of imagination with this graphic, but it can be done.

i'll use 200hz in winisd because the filters get a little screwy at the bottom end. just divide everything in your head by 10. :-)

so if the red line is the target, 4th order linkwitz riley at 14hz (140hz in the picture, -6db point), and the slope is 24db/octave for 4th order, it can be mimicked in the following way:

filter 1: highpass at 20hz LR 4th order
filter 2: 12db / octave high shelf with negative gain of -6db
filter 3: 12db / octave high shelf with negative gain of -6db

filter 1 creates the black line in the picture. filters 2 + 3 create the green line. the black line + the green line = exactly the red line, which is 4th order LR at 14hz.

post #86 of 104
OK, so the graphic representation of the negative gain high shelf is messing with me.



Is this an issue with the software? I set a highpass at 20, LR, 4th order.

I picked HS12, -6 dB at 20 Hz, then added a second with the same settings.

According to the graphic, my passband is now -12 dB.

As I understand it, that's not how a high shelf is supposed to work.

Guess I need to pull the amp, hook up the test leads, set some filters and measure things so that I can see what is really going on.
post #87 of 104
"As I understand it, that's not how a high shelf is supposed to work."

that's correct. but in some sense it is just semantics. the shape of the curve is all that matters. the inuke software distinguishes between the high and low shelf filters based on the corner used to set them. the high shelf uses the corner higher in frequency, while the low shelf uses the corner lower in frequency. since the low corner that we want is way down under 20hz, we can't use the low shelf filter with positive gain as would normally be done. the workaround is to use the high shelf filter with negative gain, just as you have there, but then raise the overall volume level. what is lost is about 12db of signal to noise, which for most folks in the bass is not a problem.
post #88 of 104
Why not use PEQ instead of HS, with gain and Q to make the right half approximate the HS, so that the mirrored left has gives 12 dB more cut on the low end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

filter 1: highpass at 20hz LR 4th order
filter 2: 12db / octave high shelf with negative gain of -6db
filter 3: 12db / octave high shelf with negative gain of -6db

filter 1 creates the black line in the picture. filters 2 + 3 create the green line. the black line + the green line = exactly the red line, which is 4th order LR at 14hz.

post #89 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

You need an HTPC with JRiver Media Center and a 16 channel DAC.

My HTPC runs Jriver already:)

It's a little bit outside this thread, but how would one go about such system in a good way?
post #90 of 104
Archaea and LTD....also figured the more emails sent to Berry, the better? Yesterday's response to mine is below...

"Thank you for your email! The details regarding products to be released are generally not available until the information is posted on our website at www.behringer.com. However, your suggestion seems a good one - and I'd be glad to pass this on to the appropriate personnel in our R&D department for consideration. If it turns out that there is sufficient demand for a particular product (and the implementation of this product or feature proves to be feasible) - it's possible that your suggestions may be incorporated into future production runs or software revisions!"

The usual response. It would be great to have direct contact with someone in that R&D department...or someone in pro-sound that could mod the DCX for us.
Edited by blah450 - 11/19/13 at 8:39am
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