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Reference level+ bass for a ~11,000 cubic foot dedicated home theater space?

post #1 of 66
2/2/13 at 4:36pm
Thread Starter 
I have a (30x40) out building on my property that I want to tun into a home theater. I need new subs and surrounds, but for now lets talk subs! biggrin.gif

Budget for drivers is about $2K. I have a few old school pro amps that total about 4KW's, but I can buy something new if I need more power. Building has 240v if that helps.

I'm thinking horn subs, maybe four of Ricci's GJALLARHORNs with Mach5 18" drivers or a bunch of BFM's THT.

My limitations are

(1) My DIY mains only go to 80hz, so I'll be crossing at 80hz.
(2) AVR/Pre-pro distance settings are limited to 45ft. Distance from the seats to the sub will be around 20-22ft, so that only leaves 20-25ft for the horn path length (hope that makes sense).

I would like to spread the subs around the space to even out bass response as much as possible, but I will be adding bass traps and other room treatments.

Reference level plus some headroom would be great from 15hz on up.

What do you guys suggest?
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post #2 of 66
2/2/13 at 5:35pm
I guess it depends on your low frequency goals as well. $2k gets you eight RS18's, and if big boxes arent an issue, you could put each in an LLT (15 ft3 tuned to 10hz for example), which would only need 500 watts to reach a 20mm excursion limit (4k watts for 8).


Anechoic output of a single with 500 watts. Eight in room would be significantly more.


edit: didnt catch the 15hz part, still an idea anyway
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post #3 of 66
2/2/13 at 6:12pm
8 Dayton HO-18's in an IB biggrin.gif with a DCX should work in a room that size and would be about the limits of that budget. That should give pretty good results.
The DCX goes up to 656ft of delay distance into 6 outputs and can EQ and XO anywhere between 20hz to 20khz.
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post #4 of 66
2/2/13 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

I guess it depends on your low frequency goals as well. $2k gets you eight RS18's, and if big boxes arent an issue, you could put each in an LLT (15 ft3 tuned to 10hz for example), which would only need 500 watts to reach a 20mm excursion limit (4k watts for 8).


Anechoic output of a single with 500 watts. Eight in room would be significantly more.


edit: didnt catch the 15hz part, still an idea anyway

Thanks for the suggestion! I don't think I'm going to get a lot of room gain as the walls are just 1/2" ply, insulation and drywall. That may change, but I think I should work of 1/2 pi to be safe.

So with that driver in an LLT would give 113 db @ 20hz in 1/2 space @1m. 8 would give us 122db @ 1m. Listening position is about 20ft from the subs, so that wold be -6db for each doubling of distance. So at 4m (~12ft) we're down to just 104db @ 20hz. Or did I mess up those calculations.... is been a while!

Anyway I'm hoping for 120db or so... With my budget I think horns are going to be the only way to go.
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post #5 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:04pm

Reference at 15hz in that HUGE space is going to be tough I think. I would go with eight 18" drivers in a infinite baffle and if thats not possible, lots of 20hz horns in the corners.

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post #6 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

8 Dayton HO-18's in an IB biggrin.gif with a DCX should work in a room that size and would be about the limits of that budget. That should give pretty good results.
The DCX goes up to 656ft of delay distance into 6 outputs and can EQ and XO anywhere between 20hz to 20khz.

Since the sub's drivers are further away than everything else (since they are buried in the horn) you need to delay all other channels. A delay on the LFE is the opposite of what is needed. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Reference at 15hz in that HUGE space is going to be tough I think. I would go with eight 18" drivers in a infinite baffle and if thats not possible, lots of 20hz horns in the corners.

No real space to do an IB (I should have mentioned that up front) and it's kind of hard to place the bass around the room and efficiency goes down when you place pairs around the room.

I'm pretty sure that it going to have to be horns.... it's just a question of which horns. Then again, I've not been following what the latest and greatest drivers are capable of.
Edited by steve71 - 2/2/13 at 7:26pm
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post #7 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:22pm
Ya, I think you would be well served with horns. $2K does not go all that far with that much room to fill.
4 of Ricci's GJALLARHORNS might be the ticket, but even that will be well over $2K, probably closer to $2500 when all is said and done.
But you could start with 2 and see where that gets you.
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post #8 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Ya, I think you would be well served with horns. $2K does not go all that far with that much room to fill.
4 of Ricci's GJALLARHORNS might be the ticket, but even that will be well over $2K, probably closer to $2500 when all is said and done.
But you could start with 2 and see where that gets you.

confused.gif

I though I read that the UXL-18 from Mach 5 would work in the GJALLARHORN? Those drivers are $440 each so I could do four and still be under. $2000 or so budget was just for the drivers. If need be I stretch that a bit and do 6.
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post #9 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:39pm
True, but I am not sure that includes shipping from Canada as well as a couple hundred bucks in wood, wire, connectors, etc. and that is for raw wood cabinets and no finish...
It almost always costs more than you think. I was erring on the safe side by guesstimating $2500 which may be high.
You might be able to do 4 for less but not too much less, perhaps if you use junk ply and not Baltic birch.

Plus you will need some sort of EQ too.
Edited by jpmst3 - 2/2/13 at 7:52pm
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post #10 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

True, but I am not sure that includes shipping from Canada as well as a couple hundred bucks in wood, wire, connectors, etc. and that is for raw wood cabinets and no finish...
It almost always costs more than you think. I was erring on the safe side by guesstimating $2500. You might be able to do 4 for less but too much less, perhaps if you use junk ply and not Baltic birch.

OK got your drift. I know it all adds up, but I just budget for the drivers and the rest is what it is. I get into less trouble that way wink.gif
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post #11 of 66
2/2/13 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

OK got your drift. I know it all adds up, but I just budget for the drivers and the rest is what it is. I get into less trouble that way wink.gif


Ok, as long as you are prepared for the ancillary costs then you are ready to roll. It would definitely be a killer system!
I would like to build a pair myself.
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post #12 of 66
2/2/13 at 8:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Ok, as long as you are prepared for the ancillary costs then you are ready to roll. It would definitely be a killer system!
I would like to build a pair myself.

The budget is self imposed and I guess I'm trying to delude myself into thinking this whole project is going to cost less that what it will eventually cost eek.gif.

Hey at least we bought the property with this out building already in place. Complete with septic system, kitchen, toilet, water heater, electricity etc. That puts me about $70K ahead to begin with right biggrin.gif. It would be crime NOT to turn it into a home theater, right?
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post #13 of 66
2/2/13 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

So with that driver in an LLT would give 113 db @ 20hz in 1/2 space @1m. 8 would give us 122db @ 1m. Listening position is about 20ft from the subs, so that wold be -6db for each doubling of distance. So at 4m (~12ft) we're down to just 104db @ 20hz. Or did I mess up those calculations.... is been a while!

Unless your room has no walls, you should get a little more than that in reality.

The rule is -6dB for every doubling of distance, unless my brain's out to lunch today. Two of my sig may do it if you corner fire them, but would be pushing things. Three would. Four definitely would, and could all be powered by one EP4000. Rooms like this is what I had in mind for the design, and you should be well under your driver budget.

Also, take a look at the LilWrecker wink.gif
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post #14 of 66
2/2/13 at 10:29pm
4 GH with UXL's will fill that space. 4 are capable of peaks of 136dB at 16Hz and 140dB at 20Hz at 1m. So that translates to 116dB at 16Hz and and 120dB at 20Hz at 10m (approx 33ft). That's outdoors with no gain.

I have 2 in a roughly 12,000 cube lossy space with about 1500 w each and they more than do the job. With a space that big and room for large enclosures I would do large 15-20Hz horns .
Edited by Ricci - 2/2/13 at 10:40pm
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post #15 of 66
2/3/13 at 11:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

Unless your room has no walls, you should get a little more than that in reality.

The rule is -6dB for every doubling of distance, unless my brain's out to lunch today. Two of my sig may do it if you corner fire them, but would be pushing things. Three would. Four definitely would, and could all be powered by one EP4000. Rooms like this is what I had in mind for the design, and you should be well under your driver budget.

Also, take a look at the LilWrecker wink.gif

Thanks OW. I will check out your offerings. Do you happen to know off hand what the approximate path length of the horn is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

4 GH with UXL's will fill that space. 4 are capable of peaks of 136dB at 16Hz and 140dB at 20Hz at 1m. So that translates to 116dB at 16Hz and and 120dB at 20Hz at 10m (approx 33ft). That's outdoors with no gain.

I have 2 in a roughly 12,000 cube lossy space with about 1500 w each and they more than do the job. With a space that big and room for large enclosures I would do large 15-20Hz horns .

You did a great job with those GH's Ricci. They just look so impressive! Not to mention the numbers - 136db @ 16hz wow!

Do you happen to know the path length of the horn?

And for that matter, are you supposed to take into account the path length of a tapped horn? The back wave has virtually nil distance compared to the front wave that has to go through the entire horn...

I have a 15" tapped horn at the moment and I though it sounded better when the distance of the horn was taken into account. Has Tom Danley ever commented on this?
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post #16 of 66
2/3/13 at 11:37am
Mine runs about 25 feet or so. Any 16Hz horn will be a long one. That said, MCACC on my Pioneer 919 can't seem to tell the difference... it always sets the delay from the horn mouth to listening position, which is around 16 feet. I haven't really noticed an audible difference when I manually add the path length in.

I don't reckon you'd need four Gjallerhorns for that space - two may do it. Of course, if you're a guy who likes massive overkill, I'm not a guy who should argue...
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post #17 of 66
2/3/13 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
25ft would be close to the max if I had to compensate for horn path length. Four subs would help smooth out the response, but given how lossy the building is, that might not be a problem either.
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post #18 of 66
2/3/13 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

True, but I am not sure that includes shipping from Canada as well as a couple hundred bucks in wood, wire, connectors, etc. and that is for raw wood cabinets and no finish...
It almost always costs more than you think. I was erring on the safe side by guesstimating $2500 which may be high.
You might be able to do 4 for less but not too much less, perhaps if you use junk ply and not Baltic birch.

Plus you will need some sort of EQ too.


They are currently out of stock, but it was $530 shipped to the US. However; back when they sold the FTW-21 they offered shipping discounts if you ordered 4 or more.
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post #19 of 66
2/3/13 at 12:16pm
I just finished a refold of the HouseWrecker too. Don't discount that one, it is actually an easier build.

Initial measurements suggest that it is -3 dB at 12 Hz when corner loaded in a room, but we've not got "real" measurements that we trust yet.

For that matter, my "MicroWrecker" is done too, though it is also awaiting "real" measurements. The last two times I tried, it was far too cold outside.
Preliminary measurements suggest that it it is -3 dB at about 19 Hz, and makes about 95 dB at a watt.

Seriously - 4 horns or tapped horns tuned below 20 Hz, loaded with capable drivers and fed with a real amp will be able to hurt that room.

I've experienced a pair of LilWreckers in a room at full throttle. Good fun, but batten down the hatches, seriously.
A pair of LilWreckers takes pictures off walls and empties cabinets upstairs. I clipped my OmniMic at 125 dB, measured at the seats.
The pair of housewreckers flaps fully framed and sheetrocked walls 3/4" p-p. Max SPL is still unknown, still sorting out EQ and amplification issues.
One MicroWrecker, running at 1/4 power, bounces hanging light fixtures to where I am concerned that they're gonna come down on me. I've measured 117 dB at the couch with ~250 watts...
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post #20 of 66
2/3/13 at 3:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I just finished a refold of the HouseWrecker too. Don't discount that one, it is ous
Preliminary measurements suggest that it it is -3 dB at about 19 Hz, and makes about 95 dB at a watt.

Seriously - 4 horns or tapped horns tuned below 20 Hz, loaded with capable drivers and fed with a real amp will be able to hurt that room.

I've experienced a pair of LilWreckers in a room at full throttle. Good fun, but batten down the hatches, seriously.
A pair of LilWreckers takes pictures off walls and empties cabinets upstairs. I clipped my OmniMic at 125 dB, measured at the seats.
The pair of housewreckers flaps fully framed and sheetrocked walls 3/4" p-p. Max SPL is still unknown, still sorting out EQ and amplification issues.
One MicroWrecker, running at 1/4 power, bounces hanging light fixtures to where I am concerned that they're gonna come down on me. I've measured 117 dB at the couch with ~250 watts...

I'll go check out your house wrecker (love that name!). The outbuilding is steel beams, metal roof & concrete slab floor. The outer walls are just plywood with about 1ft of insulation. Inner walls are just dry wall, but that may change.

I had my 15" tapped horn in our old brick Victorian in a 14x13x9.5 room and apart from vibrating the floor, it didn't really do much like knocking down paintings or anything like that. And that was clipping a 700watt amp.

Hopefully this time round I can do some damage lol.
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post #21 of 66
2/3/13 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Hopefully this time round I can do some damage lol.

No problems there with four of any of the horn designs discussed thus far biggrin.gif

I can't even imagine what four of mine would do. Models say they'd be into the 130's themselves at one meter outside, 20Hz, but I have no way to verify that. I've already hurt the house with the two horns I have. One thing I can say for sure... 120dB down to 16Hz at listening position is worth it. Especially on concrete floors, where you don't get any tactile feedback. 122+ is more fun, but that's house damage territory for me.
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post #22 of 66
2/4/13 at 5:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I just finished a refold of the HouseWrecker too. Don't discount that one, it is actually an easier build.

Initial measurements suggest that it is -3 dB at 12 Hz when corner loaded in a room, but we've not got "real" measurements that we trust yet.

For that matter, my "MicroWrecker" is done too, though it is also awaiting "real" measurements. The last two times I tried, it was far too cold outside.
Preliminary measurements suggest that it it is -3 dB at about 19 Hz, and makes about 95 dB at a watt.

Seriously - 4 horns or tapped horns tuned below 20 Hz, loaded with capable drivers and fed with a real amp will be able to hurt that room.

I've experienced a pair of LilWreckers in a room at full throttle. Good fun, but batten down the hatches, seriously.
A pair of LilWreckers takes pictures off walls and empties cabinets upstairs. I clipped my OmniMic at 125 dB, measured at the seats.
The pair of housewreckers flaps fully framed and sheetrocked walls 3/4" p-p. Max SPL is still unknown, still sorting out EQ and amplification issues.
One MicroWrecker, running at 1/4 power, bounces hanging light fixtures to where I am concerned that they're gonna come down on me. I've measured 117 dB at the couch with ~250 watts...

Mike what driver are you using for all these horns? 15" CVX or whatever its called.
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post #23 of 66
2/4/13 at 5:43am
I believe it is the Kicker CVX15
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post #24 of 66
2/4/13 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Mike what driver are you using for all these horns? 15" CVX or whatever its called.

Yes, I'm using the CVX 15.

I've found a few other drivers that should work according to the specs, but they all cost a fair bit, and I already have some CVXs.

The SI 15D2 looks like it will work in either the LilWrecker and HouseWrecker. The Sundown Zv3 15 looks like it will work in any of the three designs I mentioned.

Plans are not quite done for the MicroWrecker, but are underway. Plans are done and posted for the other two, but I've not written up any instructions, as dB and radman12 are both experienced cabinet builders.
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post #25 of 66
2/4/13 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Yes, I'm using the CVX 15.

I've found a few other drivers that should work according to the specs, but they all cost a fair bit, and I already have some CVXs.

The SI 15D2 looks like it will work in either the LilWrecker and HouseWrecker. The Sundown Zv3 15 looks like it will work in any of the three designs I mentioned.

Plans are not quite done for the MicroWrecker, but are underway. Plans are done and posted for the other two, but I've not written up any instructions, as dB and radman12 are both experienced cabinet builders.

Just a quick note (on my lunch break):

theHouseWrecker prelim measurements showed ~~119-120dB at my chair in a n 8k cu ft plus room from Fb to 20hz, and over 120 above 20hz at the chair running on an EP4k, straight in. This on a steady state sine wave - just under driver overload. (IE crank a sine wave till it overloads driver - turn down till it cleans up, take a reading. Can you say "Love the smell of hot voice coil? smile.gif )

Working out electrical issues with a car audio processor I had wired in - going to a PC for processing now. Ended up grounding an amp that didn't want to be grounded - oops. Almost destroyed both front windows in my living-room - when the amp was fed high enough signal to clip at 15hz.. My living room is not bass friendly (More like a bass suck - see theHouseWrecker thread after say about page 10 ) - but in room the pair are definitely... Decent. They work well if you have shallow space. Dig through theHouseWrecker last three or four pages for details.

As Mike says - 4 of any of these variants will eclipse reference from 15hz up.... The lower tuned bigger variants (LilWrecker / theHouseWrecker) will put more down below 18hz, less above 22..
Edited by dB-Kicker - 2/4/13 at 3:57pm
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post #26 of 66
2/4/13 at 3:45pm
Thread Starter 
I'm still checking out my options, but leaning towards the Gjallerhorns. Mach 5 says 8 weeks until they have the parts in stock to make the drivers, so who knows how long till before I have them in my grubby little hands.

I could just build two Gjallerhorns with the LMS and add more if it's needed. Is the LMS Ultra 5400 driver worth double the asking price of the Mach 5 UXL 18"? I know they are both on par for output and the LMS might have a little less THD, but what about build quality/failures etc?
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post #27 of 66
2/4/13 at 4:34pm
I would imagine that the maximum output will be about the same since max displacement is close as is sensitivity. The LMS likely has lower distortion and lower power compression due to the massive voice coil. It also has a stiffer cone which helps with the forces inside these cabs. I would say that the UXL is probably more mechanically rugged though as it has better mechanical clearances than the LMS. The LMS is probably slightly better but is it $400ea better? I'm not so sure. However it is available now. I think 2 cabs will be plenty. If you want pure absurdity do 2 more down the road. If you can wait I would lean towards the Mach5 driver just for the savings especially if doing 4 eventually. If you get the Mach5's make sure you get the carbon fiber dustcap as I could see the paper one folding up potentially.


I forgot to mention the path length on the GH cab is 22.5ft.
Edited by Ricci - 2/4/13 at 4:51pm
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post #28 of 66
2/4/13 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I would imagine that the maximum output will be about the same since max displacement is close as is sensitivity. The LMS likely has lower distortion and lower power compression due to the massive voice coil. It also has a stiffer cone which helps with the forces inside these cabs. I would say that the UXL is probably more mechanically rugged though as it has better mechanical clearances than the LMS. The LMS is probably slightly better but is it $400ea better? I'm not so sure. However it is available now. I think 2 cabs will be plenty. If you want pure absurdity do 2 more down the road. If you can wait I would lean towards the Mach5 driver just for the savings especially if doing 4 eventually. If you get the Mach5's make sure you get the carbon fiber dustcap as I could see the paper one folding up potentially.


I forgot to mention the path length on the GH cab is 22.5ft.

Thanks for the input Ricci. I do have a ton of other projects I could do while I waited for the the Mach5's. Guess building those awesome looking cabs might have to wait frown.gif

Also thanks for the path length. smile.gif
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post #29 of 66
2/4/13 at 5:19pm
Way I figure it it is going to take a couple of weeks to even get the cabs done...tongue.gif
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post #30 of 66
2/4/13 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

The outer walls are just plywood with about 1ft of insulation. Inner walls are just dry wall, but that may change.

If you can get the SPL you want and won't bother anyone with the bass that escapes, I'd leave it alone.

Stiffer boundaries make for stronger room modes and response that's less smooth in any one location as well as having more variation at different locations.
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