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Diamante Build in DC - Page 3

post #61 of 190
Thread Starter 

Read the thread.  The take home message that I got (other than the recurrent admonishment that mere mortals should not be wasting their time and money thinking about these things and that we need to buy services and plans) is that a baffle wall can be beneficial, but thought needs to go into its design and poorly designed walls can degrade sound quality.

 

There was also some interesting specifics about their construction (which are also mirrored here and elsewhere), but the one piece that I'm not quite sure about this the attachment of the speaker itself (or in my case the speaker box enclosure for my in-wall speakers) to the baffle wall.  I've read that it must be attached both securely and resiliently.  Would this be accomplished with a bead of acoustical caulk between the speaker box and the baffle wall (and then screws to secure one to the other)?  Or with IB3 clips between the two?

post #62 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossoDiamante View Post

Read the thread.  The take home message that I got (other than the recurrent admonishment that mere mortals should not be wasting their time and money thinking about these things and that we need to buy services and plans) is that a baffle wall can be beneficial, but thought needs to go into its design and poorly designed walls can degrade sound quality.

There was also some interesting specifics about their construction (which are also mirrored here and elsewhere), but the one piece that I'm not quite sure about this the attachment of the speaker itself (or in my case the speaker box enclosure for my in-wall speakers) to the baffle wall.  I've read that it must be attached both securely and resiliently.  Would this be accomplished with a bead of acoustical caulk between the speaker box and the baffle wall (and then screws to secure one to the other)?  Or with IB3 clips between the two?

Assuming you build the backboxes for these, there is no harm in using IB3 clips to decouple the boxes from the baffle wall framing. In my near-future baffle wall I am building 5-sided boxes that will be slid through nearly identical openings in the baffle wall and rigidly attached. Procella provides isolation feet for the LCRs to sit, thereby limiting the vibration that enters the baffle wall assembly. I also have plans to build the baffle wall on a sand-filled stage since my subs will also be shoved in through the baffle wall directly. I have seen where the interface between the sheet material of the baffle wall and the subwoofers, for example, has been caulked using a permanently flexible acoustic caulk.
post #63 of 190
Thread Starter 

TMcG,

 

So, because of the rubber feet on the speakers you are using, you are making no accommodations on isolating the speaker boxes/platforms you are building from the rest of the baffle wall?

 

If speakers are going to be crossed over at 60-80 Hz, practically, is there really enough vibration to be concerned about?

 

Are the benefits touted for baffle walls equivalent or different for higher vs. lower frequencies?  My plan was also to "shove" a subwoofer in the open space below the drywall of the speaker so that it was in the same plane as the in-wall speakers but not drywall around it.

post #64 of 190
The speakers will rest inside another cavity (5-sided box) that will be built into the baffle wall, so it is technically decoupled. At the only point of contact between the P610 speaker and the baffle wall itself they provide four very hefty isolation feet. So it's more of a case of "doing what I am told" between the Procella guidance document and Dennis' recommendations (to which a lot of the Procella guidance is based). The Procella P610 has a head unit and a separate 10" woofer that is independently amplified and crossed over with an external DSP, so I am sure there will be some frequencies below 60Hz...maybe even as low as 40Hz, but it will be dictated by what the room calls for. Procella includes the isolation feet, so why not use them, right? The subwoofers sitting on the sand-filled stage will probably have their own isolation "feet" (ie platform), but that's something I'll discuss with Dennis before implementing. Even building the entire baffle wall on a sand-filled stage is being discussed. It might be only the subs. But enough about my theater plans...

I'm not qualified to answer what specific frequencies are affected by baffle walls, but I would hope that it doesn't either exacerbate or diminish any specific frequency as a flat response is what we are all looking for. I'd hate to see the wall be something that takes a lot of work to EQ its effects out. But there has been much testing (by Procella, THX, DTS and others) that indicates there is an extra 6db of "free" output when you have the same equipment in a baffle wall with all settings equal.
post #65 of 190
Thread Starter 

I had a nice conversation with the manufacturer of my speakers yesterday afternoon.  I wanted to ask them what helps make their particular speakers perform well.  A couple of things came out of the conversation, some of which corroborates the information I've gotten here.  Without any prompting from me, he agreed with the MDF/drywall sandwich with the GG in between.  In fact, he went on to say that any two dissimilar materials would work better than two layers of the same material.  Around here, OSB is cheaper than plywood which is cheaper than MDF.  Interestingly at HD, MDF looks like it only comes in 2' x 4' boards and only 1/2" and 3/4" thicknesses.  So it seems that a layer of OSB and then the two layers of drywall would be most cost-effective.

 

He also supported the idea of isolating the speaker box (which should have an internal volume of 2.25 cu. ft.) from the framing of the speaker wall.  He has used rubber pads but liked my idea of IB3 clips.

 

I had a hard time explaining my open at the top and bottom design of the speaker wall with the rationale of using the space behind the speaker wall as a bass trap.  But he kept mentioning that there would be a rise in output of some frequency at any falloff of the otherwise flat plane of the speaker wall drywall dependent on the distance of the dropoff from the drivers.

 

He also threw in a tidbit about people wanting to use speakers without their grilles.  He said that they measure the output of their speakers with the grilles and then tune out somehow the expected peak (he said in their speakers it ended up around 3000Hz,).  He went on to say that running the speakers without the grilles would then be expected to display a drop in output at the same 3000Hz.

 

At the end of the day, however, he suggested building the room with all the little tweaks you want to include that follow generally accepted common wisdom.  But that you then have to actually measure the room to get the finer details right.  He said that with careful, thoughtful initial construction, the fine correction could be achieved either electronically with DSPs or with acoustic treatments throughout the room.

post #66 of 190
Thread Starter 

I think I'm overdue for some progress pictures.  Lots has happened since the last update.

 

 

Insulation was taken down off of the theater walls.  A round trip.  From naked concrete, to insulated for inspection with my first renovation, back to naked concrete.  I've been collecting piles of insulation which I'm planning on putting back into the walls and ceilings.

 

 

The alternative IB3 clip installation where we couldn't get the top plate up near the ceiling joists because of piping and wiring.  So we secured the wall to the concrete wall behind.

 

 

 

The more traditional IB3 clip installation method - isolating the top plate from the ceiling joists.

 

 

 

The theater walls framed out.  The ducts on the left side of the room dictates that we will use two different methods of soundproofing the wall-to-ceiling junction.

 

 

 

 

The riser taking shape.

 

 

 

We ran out of space in my existing subpanel, so it was swapped out for one with more breaker capacity.

 

 

post #67 of 190
Thread Starter 

The riser takes its final shape.  Boxes in place for both electrical outlets and networking cables.

 

 

 

 

One of the two Grafik Eyes.

 

 

 

The old wiring hub got cleaned up.  Plus more wires to connect up as needed in the future.

 

 

 

 

Looking from the bar into the lobby area.

 

 

 

After a prolonged electrical rough-in phase, the close-in inspection was unremarkable.  So the next step is insulating the exterior walls per code and the interior walls and ceilings to attenuate sound transmission through to the rest of the house.  I suspect I'll have a fair amount of Linacoustic left over when I'm done.\

 

 

post #68 of 190
Thread Starter 

All this insulation came from the ceiling and walls as part of the demolition.  I figured I'd be able to reuse it.  The plan is to put it all into the walls, the ceiling, and the riser of the theater.

 

 

 

 

Most of the new insulation went into the walls to look nice for the inspector!

 

 

 

 

The theater walls getting their insulation.  Now I'm ready for my insulation inspection.

 

 

 

 

 

post #69 of 190
Thread Starter 

It's been a while since my last update.  Been working pretty diligently to get things finished.  But still a ways to go.

 

The insulation inspection went without a hitch once I figured out why he kept failing me saying he couldn't get into the house despite the basement door being left unlocked for him.  Turns out the inspectors will not enter an occupied home without a chaperone even with written permission.  So as soon as I got someone to escort him into the basement, it was passed in a matter of a few minutes.

 

Here I've put in some additional insulation into the ceilings and walls that are not mandated by code but are there for sound attenuation.

 

 

I'm also trying to attenuate the sound of water running through the drains from the kitchen above by wrapping the drain pipes in extra fiberglass.  You can see the wrapped drain pipe next to the steel beam.

 

 

I thought I had enough insulation from the demolition, but I could tell that I was going to need more for the amount of insulation I wanted to get into that room!

 

post #70 of 190
Thread Starter 

The drywall furring channels (don't call them resilient channels or someone around here will slap your wrist) going up.

 

 

 

 

Due to very limited options for placement of the rear surround speakers, they ended up in a side-by-side configuration.  Built MDF boxes with the proscribed 2.2 cu. ft. volumes and mounted them up in between the ceiling joints using IB3 clips to isolate them from the floor above.

 

 

 

 

Since the drywall would not be mounted directly to the joists, I had to make little "chimneys" around the speaker cutouts to that I could still seal the boxes up against the drywall (or in my case plywood).

 

post #71 of 190
Thread Starter 

My "first layer" on the ceiling is 5/8" plywood.

 

 

The bulkheads taking shape.  They are secured at the top to the plywood on furring channels and to the sides on the decoupled walls.  So they form an integral part of the soundproofed shell.

 

 

 

My job throughout has been to run and manage the low voltage wiring!  I hope I can figure out how it will all fit together.

 

post #72 of 190
Thread Starter 

Bulkheads finished up.

 

 

 

The "choke point" where my HVAC and wiring is going to have to be crammed through.

 

 

The electrical closet finally framed out.

 

post #73 of 190
Thread Starter 

Mr. Big will appreciate the change in my ventilation plan from the time we initially talked.  Originally I was planning on putting the supply fan in my AV closet and having the supply air come from the family room just outside of the the theater lobby.  It is well protected sound wise already with about 35' of insulated flex duct.  But Mr. Big brought up the issue of possibly recirculating stale exhaust air instead of introducing fresh air.  I thought I was going to be OK because the supply and exhaust were going to be about 35' apart from each other, but they were technically going into the same "room".

 

But after I opened up the box for the fan, I saw just how freaking big it was.  There was not way I was going to fit that into my little AV rack closet.  So I found a way to extend the duct another 20' or so into the next room over.  I had to build a little bit of a box to hide the thing in, though.  So now the supply is coming about 50' away from the exhaust and from a completely different room.  I also got concerned, after reading some posts here, that a pure ventilation system would not be sufficient to actually cool the room, so I rigged up a contraption that would allow me to inject some conditioned air by Y'ing it together with my supply line.  But since the AC ducts are used for heating in the winter, I put a damper in that leg so that I can close it down when the heat is on and just use the recirculating leg.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #74 of 190
Thread Starter 

Likewise, on the exhaust side, I think I was able to make significant improvements in the final implementation vs. the initial plan.

 

Initially, I was going to take an exhaust port directly from the lobby into the adjacent mechanical room and build a dead vent in there with the exhaust finally ending up in the craft room outside of the lobby.  But after the mechanical room was built out and I saw how crowded it became in there, I knew I needed to think of plan B.  Plan B consisted of taking exhaust air from the other side of the lobby and bringing it out with all of the other electrical and plumbing and eventually snaking it for about 25' back into another part of the mechanical room where I was able to mount the fan and exhaust it out near the original design location.  I was able to eliminate the need to construct a dead vent.  I am able to keep the fan exposed now in case of the need for service.  And I was able to get quite a bit more flex duct between the fan/exhaust location and the theater.  A secondary benefit was that from this location, I could also draw exhaust air from the AV Rack closet to keep the equipment cooler with next to no additional work or parts -- just a T and an L fitting.

 

 

 

 

post #75 of 190
Thread Starter 

Drywall throughout the rest of the basement is hung.  Time to start looking at drywalling the theater.

 

 

 

But before the drywall goes up, my final chance to lay in more wires!  They rats nest of wiring grows even more grotesque.

 

 

 

Wires for the front sound stage.  I think I eventually ended up wiring with 3 XLR balanced, 2 RCA unbalanced, 2 speaker level for subs, 3 speaker level for L/C/R, 2 speaker level for front effects, and a couple of Cat 5 and 6 type control wires for whatever.

 

 

I did have to organize the rats nest in preparation for drywall in the AV Rack closet.  Ended up with 3 bundles.  One for speaker wires, one for Cat 5/6 wires, and one for everything else.

 

post #76 of 190
Thread Starter 

Thanks to SeaNile, I now have my subwoofers.  JTR Captivators.  Now I need to find the amplification for them.  Has anyone used Behringer iNuke DSP amps for subwoofer amplification?

post #77 of 190
Great progress you are making, this looks really cool. Interested to see how your HVAC system performs once the room is complete based on the decisions you made. HVAC seems to be one of the pieces in the puzzle that can be difficult to figure out.
post #78 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Great progress you are making, this looks really cool. Interested to see how your HVAC system performs once the room is complete based on the decisions you made. HVAC seems to be one of the pieces in the puzzle that can be difficult to figure out.

 

The thing I'm most worried about is ADDING heat during the wintertime.  I put a damper in the Y connector, but it is an imperfect seal and a good amount of air still passes through.  My backup plan is to put a plug of some sort in the duct upstream at the last vent that feeds the rest of the house upstairs.  I think adding conditioned air was the right thing to do for cooling in the summertime, though.

post #79 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossoDiamante View Post



I like your PVC scrap wire management device. I always just kept a few different open loops on 11" cable ties, but I like the rigidity of the pipe while sorting things out.

Keep up the great work!
post #80 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I like your PVC scrap wire management device. I always just kept a few different open loops on 11" cable ties, but I like the rigidity of the pipe while sorting things out.

Keep up the great work!

Thanks.

Finding a way to soundproof the wires coming through the ceiling of the AV closet will be a challenge. I've got a 3" pipe and two 1.5" pipes lassoing my wires. They're pretty full, but not full enough to stop sound from passing right through the pipe. I'm thinking of something like a rubber cap and/or wrapping the opening with the foil tape used on HVAC ducts.

The really big sound problem I have recognized now is the sump pump drain that I have going up one of my side walls. It opens up outside the house near the 3 AC compressors. Very effective at funneling sound right into the theater. I have to find a way to extend that pipe somewhere else and then wrap it in insulation, I think.
post #81 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossoDiamante View Post

Thanks.

Finding a way to soundproof the wires coming through the ceiling of the AV closet will be a challenge. I've got a 3" pipe and two 1.5" pipes lassoing my wires. They're pretty full, but not full enough to stop sound from passing right through the pipe. I'm thinking of something like a rubber cap and/or wrapping the opening with the foil tape used on HVAC ducts.....
Quote:

I'm planning to stuff some putty pads into the conduit I use to bring my wiring into the room. They're pretty dense, and you can remove them later if you need to add more wires.
post #82 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:

I'm planning to stuff some putty pads into the conduit I use to bring my wiring into the room. They're pretty dense, and you can remove them later if you need to add more wires.

I thought about that too. I have a couple of extra pads. But that stuff is awfully sticky and messy once it gets warm.
post #83 of 190
Thread Starter 

The first layer of drywall going up on the underside of the bulkheads and the walls.  

 

 

post #84 of 190
Thread Starter 

Wiring that will traverse the to-be-built cosmetic bulkheads inside the soundproofed shell.  Some go to a subwoofer location in the lobby, some go to the countertop area to allow me to connect a PC or another source to the AV rack, and the rest go to the projector.

 

 

First layer of drywall is up all around.  Second layer is going up on the ceiling.

 

 

 

 

post #85 of 190
Thread Starter 

The requisite Green Glue shot:

 

 

I think I'm going to have a bunch of Green Glue left over....

 

And I'm going to have a bunch of Linacoustic left over....

 

And I've got a bunch of Cat6 left over....

 

And I've got a bunch of plywood left over....

 

And I've got a bunch of OSB left over....

 

It's a shame there is so much waste in construction.  I'm throwing away enough drywall scraps to sheath a couple of really nice tree houses!

post #86 of 190
Why the extra GG? Just make sure you are using enough!
post #87 of 190
Thread Starter 

I'm definitely using the proscribed 2 1/2 loads per 4 x 10 sheet.  We're actually going to be doing mostly walls now which are only 2 loads per 4 x 8 sheet.  And there are still a bunch of little tiny bulkhead pieces which get eyeballed.

 

But I'd be surprised if I use much more than 4 of my 6 buckets.

post #88 of 190
Just curious - but why didn't you build out the entire soundproof shell first and then build the soffit on top?
post #89 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Just curious - but why didn't you build out the entire soundproof shell first and then build the soffit on top?

That's a great question.

In essence, I did build a soundproofed shell and then put the soffit on top (or underneath depending on your perspective).

But I know your real question relates to why the perimeter bulkheads were built first. The answer is that due to the hard metal ducts which supply conditioned air to the kitchen above, I would not be able to frame the wall up to the ceiling joists nor would I be able to run the ceiling drywall all the way out to the wall. So I could have dismantled the ducts, built my shell, and then rerun the ducts and soffit them out in a soundproofed fashion inside the shell. Or I could have done what I eventually decided to do which is build a wall up to the bottom of the ducts which is obviously decoupled from the ceiling joists, but is also decoupled from the concrete walls with IB3 clips. Then I hung drywall furring channels on the ceiling up to the edge of the hard metal ducts. After the first layer was hung on the ceiling channels, I now had a decoupled ceiling and a decoupled wall. I then built a soffit by attaching 2x2's to the ceiling alongside the ducts and on the walls just under the ducts. A "face" for the soffit was created with 1/2" OSB. This area was then sheathed in the conventional ceiling/wall/ceiling/wall fashion with 5/8" drywall where there wasn't already plywood or OSB. So at the end of the day, that soffit was created by connecting 2 decoupled surfaces and comprises an integral part of the soundproofed shell.

The rest of the theater could have been constructed in the usual soundproofed fashion as has been outlined here many times, but for worker efficiency and practicality purposes, the other sides were done in the same fashion as the left side.

Within this shell, I hung the rest of the cosmetic bulkheads (I.e. they do not conceal ducting or piping or wiring). Pictures forthcoming.
post #90 of 190
Makes sense. I figured the ducting was the culprit on the one side, I should have been more specific in that I was curious why the same building technique was used all the way around.
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