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Question about XS30 vs Vtf-15h - Page 4

post #91 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If the OP wants to expand their OP to include the Epik, Empire, then you'll have a valid position. How easy is it to purchase an Empire subwoofer these days? My understanding, currently Epik isn't shipping any subwoofers and if that's correct, even if the OP did expand their choices to include an Epik, Empire, due to lack of availability, doing so isn't a valid consideration.

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LOL, I would not advise on Epik either, but I think my point went right over your head which seems to be a common issue with you on a lot of threads.

Fred Astaire would have nothing on him.
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post #92 of 149
2/6/13 at 10:03am
My head hoyts, Chawlie!!!!
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post #93 of 149
2/6/13 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

LOL, I would not advise on Epik either, but I think my point went right over your head which seems to be a common issue with you on a lot of threads.

You can rest assured, nothing went over my head. Two points, when Epik starts shipping Empires and the OP asks about them, then you won't be dragging the conversation off topic.
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post #94 of 149
2/6/13 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

For example, look at a model of two eminence lab 15 drivers, in a sealed 68l box. With 3000W of power, each driver is below 20mm of excursion from 5hz and up. The link also cannot be used to estimate output of the driver in a ported box.
You do not get a 6db increase at all frequencies by just adding a second driver. You get a +3db increase adding a second driver if keeping power the same and get +3db by doubling the power. Again do some modeling and you can see what happens.

The OP asked about the XS30 and the VTF-15H and that's the focus of my comments. If you want to discuss a 68l box or a sub with a 3000wRMS powered amplifier, then you're not discussing the subs the OP asked about.
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post #95 of 149
2/6/13 at 10:19am
^^^ Please stop. Pretty please?
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post #96 of 149
2/6/13 at 10:19am
OP, if you are still even reading this thread, what size room do you have? Is the room sealed and open to other rooms? What restrictions do you have around box size, and what is your max budget?
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post #97 of 149
2/6/13 at 10:40am
Having talked with Tom quite a bit when I was trying to decide between a XS30 and FV15HP, the FV15HP would have similar output to the VTF-15H. The Vtf-15h would hold the advantage below 30hz to around 15hz. Below 15hz the XS30 would probably gain back the advantage. And above 30hz it would have the output advantage too, really at these price points its hard to get the perfect sub and there will always be a trade off between the two different designs. I was okay with giving up a little output compared to a ported sub because most movies have very little audio content that low and that kick you in the chest bass slam happens above 30hz and that was what I was trying to go with. "IF" the OP was only considering these two subs I personally would recommend going with the XS30, but I also own dual XS30s so I'm a little bias. I have a 2100cubic/ft theater room and from talking with Tom and giving him a detailed drawing of my room he said I should have great output all the way down to 7-8hz. And from the way everything shakes in my house, even on the third floor with the theater in the basement I believe him.

Either sub will rattle your fillings loose and have great customer service. I would even suggest looking at a Rythmik FV15HP, but that opens up another huge can of worms!..lol
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post #98 of 149
2/6/13 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Having talked with Tom quite a bit when I was trying to decide between a XS30 and FV15HP, the FV15HP would have similar output to the VTF-15H. The Vtf-15h would hold the advantage below 30hz to around 15hz. Below 15hz the XS30 would probably gain back the advantage. And above 30hz it would have the output advantage too, really at these price points its hard to get the perfect sub and there will always be a trade off between the two different designs. I was okay with giving up a little output compared to a ported sub because most movies have very little audio content that low and that kick you in the chest bass slam happens above 30hz and that was what I was trying to go with. "IF" the OP was only considering these two subs I personally would recommend going with the XS30, but I also own dual XS30s so I'm a little bias. I have a 2100cubic/ft theater room and from talking with Tom and giving him a detailed drawing of my room he said I should have great output all the way down to 7-8hz. And from the way everything shakes in my house, even on the third floor with the theater in the basement I believe him.

Either sub will rattle your fillings loose and have great customer service. I would even suggest looking at a Rythmik FV15HP, but that opens up another huge can of worms!..lol

Your room is probably ideal for a sealed pair of subs based on your size. The fact you did pairs also helped a lot. Clearly you made an informed decision based on your needs and I think that is exactly what we should be doing for the OP. And I am with you, there is no wrong answer here with any of the subs being discussed. The XS30 is a great product at the pricepoint it is at. With the Epik Empire basically MIA, the XS30 is really filling a need for a smaller dual opposed high output design for a resonable price point. I know if I had $1200 to spend on a sub, the XS30 would be on the top of my list.
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post #99 of 149
2/6/13 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And when one moves their sub indoors, these differences get swallowed up by the inconsistencies of their rooms acoustics and placement issues. The point, yes, I was aware of your point of your question and the accurate answer was, once moved indoors, "Group delay."

Wrong again, and on both accounts.

The transfer function will be the same between two different subs in the low bass if seats and subs in the same place. Lets say you want a sub flat to 20hz and you have 8db of room gain in your seat at 20hz over ground plane. You would want to get a subwoofer that is 8db down outside ground plane to match the transfer function and keep a flat response. My room has never swallowed anything.

Group delay can be measured outside so that comment makes no sense. However a room has resonances that will linger in the time domain giving longer bass decay times and degraded SQ with either subwoofer design. This is where bass traps can be of great help.
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post #100 of 149
2/6/13 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Having talked with Tom quite a bit when I was trying to decide between a XS30 and FV15HP, the FV15HP would have similar output to the VTF-15H. The Vtf-15h would hold the advantage below 30hz to around 15hz. Below 15hz the XS30 would probably gain back the advantage. And above 30hz it would have the output advantage too, really at these price points its hard to get the perfect sub and there will always be a trade off between the two different designs. I was okay with giving up a little output compared to a ported sub because most movies have very little audio content that low and that kick you in the chest bass slam happens above 30hz and that was what I was trying to go with. "IF" the OP was only considering these two subs I personally would recommend going with the XS30, but I also own dual XS30s so I'm a little bias. I have a 2100cubic/ft theater room and from talking with Tom and giving him a detailed drawing of my room he said I should have great output all the way down to 7-8hz. And from the way everything shakes in my house, even on the third floor with the theater in the basement I believe him.

Either sub will rattle your fillings loose and have great customer service. I would even suggest looking at a Rythmik FV15HP, but that opens up another huge can of worms!..lol

I too would have gone sealed in your room. Since my room 4500^3 I went with a pair of Hsu 15Hs
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post #101 of 149
2/6/13 at 5:10pm


Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


At 20Hz, all things equal, one 15" driver vs two 15" drivers, 350w RMS vs 725w RMS, in the simple; absolutely.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

The problem is, all things are not equal when comparing the XS30 and VTF-15H. One is sealed, one is ported. The VTF will have more output around tune that the XS30 because of it's design.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Another good example, the XV15 has more output from 20-31.5hz (107.4db) than the XS30 (106.7db) according to the PSA site. The XV15 has a weaker amp and only 1 15in driver but yet has more output at the frequency range.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


The OP asked about and I responded to their question which was a comparison between the XS30 and the VTF-15H and yes, the two 15" drivers in the XS30 will play louder and deeper than the one 15" driver in the VTF-15H. This is an unequivocal fact.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post


The fact that the XS30 is not even as loud (per PSA) as the XV15 at 20-31hz hz seems to be completely lost on you. Again ported and sealed subs have advantages and disadvantages. There are no free lunches no matter how many drivers you stuff in a box. I suspect the XS30 will play louder above 40hz, but lower from 20-31hz and will have slightly more useable extension below 18-20hz. To say the XS30 will play louder and deeeper is an unequivocal fact is just not an accurate statement.

But you seem hellbent on ignoring these points and you seem to do that to a lot of people on this forum whenever information is presented to you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post


If you want to play connect the dots we can. The XV15, per PSA, has more output at certain frequency ranges than the XS30. The XV15 has a single 15" driver with a lower rated amp than the XS30 and is a ported sub. Do you agree with PSA on this? 

Beeman, you seem to be avoiding this question. 

 

This IS unequivocal fact: The PSA XV15 is a single 15in driver with a 500w amp but bests the XS30's dual 15in driver and 725w amp from 20-31.5hz (107.4db vs 106.7db). This is direct from PSA's website.

 

Based on your logic, this isn't possible....PSA states that it is. Do you agree with PSA?

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post #102 of 149
2/6/13 at 5:14pm
Below 20hz the XV15 doesn't have more output then the XS30. Atleast that's what Tom told me.
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post #103 of 149
2/6/13 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post



Beeman, you seem to be avoiding this question. 

This IS unequivocal fact: The PSA XV15 is a single 15in driver with a 500w amp but bests the XS30's dual 15in driver and 725w amp from 20-31.5hz (107.4db vs 106.7db). This is direct from PSA's website.

Based on your logic, this isn't possible....PSA states that it is. Do you agree with PSA?

I've stated my position and posted a link to a calculator. What ever PSA has to say on matters regarding their subwoofers, I'm sure is accurate. Nothing is being avoided and my comments regarded the XS30 and the VTF-15H. At this point you're simply going on to be going on.
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post #104 of 149
2/6/13 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


I've stated my position and posted a link to a calculator. What ever PSA has to say on matters regarding their subwoofers, I'm sure is accurate. Nothing is being avoided and my comments regarded the XS30 and the VTF-15H. At this point you're simply going on to be going on.

Not at all. I'm trying to educate you, but like others am failing to.

 

As I quoted in my prior post:

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


At 20Hz, all things equal, one 15" driver vs two 15" drivers, 350w RMS vs 725w RMS, in the simple; absolutely.
 

^^^This is simply not true, and proven by PSA. Forget about the XS30 vs VTF comparison.

 

Do you understand that your statement above is not true? It is dependent on the design of the sub, particularly with ported, sealed, horn, etc.


Edited by dominguez1 - 2/6/13 at 5:32pm
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post #105 of 149
2/6/13 at 5:37pm
It is simple when you call a reputable sub mfg and they ask what size room you will have the sub in and its a large room they will recommend their ported unit if they offer one or multiples of sealed that alone should tell folks something.
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post #106 of 149
2/6/13 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Forget about the XS30 vs VTF comparison.

Thank you for your thoughtful elucidation efforts but the thread is centric to the XS30 and the VTF-15H. Discuss these two subs and only these two subs and we'll be having a dialogue. If the OP wants to expand the OP, I'll be happy to expand my conversation accordingly. Right now, any conversation that's not centric to the XS30 and the VTF-15H is irrelevant as by going wide, random parameters are being thrown into the conversation that doesn't mirror the capabilities of the XS30 and the VTF-15H. Doing this does not make for valid comparisons nor do these random comparisons help the OP with their original question. If you want to recommend something other then what the OP asked about, by all means, do. If you think the XV15 is a better choice, then say so.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/6/13 at 5:54pm
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post #107 of 149
2/6/13 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Below 20hz the XV15 doesn't have more output then the XS30. Atleast that's what Tom told me.

Nobody is saying that it does. He's simply pointing out that in that frequency range the XV15 gets louder than the XS30. He's doing so to point out an erroneous statement being made. To very little effect, I might add.
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post #108 of 149
2/6/13 at 6:39pm

LOL. rolleyes.gif

 

I ask a simple yes or no question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


At 20Hz, all things equal, one 15" driver vs two 15" drivers, 350w RMS vs 725w RMS, in the simple; absolutely.

 

 

^^^This is simply not true, and proven by PSA. Forget about the XS30 vs VTF comparison.

 

Do you understand that your statement above is not true? It is dependent on the design of the sub, particularly with ported, sealed, horn, etc.

 

And you respond with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Thank you for your thoughtful elucidation efforts but the thread is centric to the XS30 and the VTF-15H. Discuss these two subs and only these two subs and we'll be having a dialogue. If the OP wants to expand the OP, I'll be happy to expand my conversation accordingly. Right now, any conversation that's not centric to the XS30 and the VTF-15H is irrelevant as by going wide, random parameters are being thrown into the conversation that doesn't mirror the capabilities of the XS30 and the VTF-15H. Doing this does not make for valid comparisons nor do these random comparisons help the OP with their original question. If you want to recommend something other then what the OP asked about, by all means, do. If you think the XV15 is a better choice, then say so.
 

You've answered mine and everyone else's question with your non-answer. No, you don't understand.

 

No worries though, you'll come around eventually once you understand the science. smile.gif

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post #109 of 149
2/6/13 at 7:15pm
Thread Starter 
The sub is going to be in a 6000-6500 ft^3 room/area. I don't have any box size restrictions.
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post #110 of 149
2/6/13 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

LOL. rolleyes.gif


I ask a simple yes or no question:

And you respond with this?
You've answered mine and everyone else's question with your non-answer. No, you don't understand.

No worries though, you'll come around eventually once you understand the science. smile.gif

I don't know about that...not many people change their opinions here on avs biggrin.gif
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post #111 of 149
2/6/13 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thank you for your thoughtful elucidation efforts but the thread is centric to the XS30 and the VTF-15H. Discuss these two subs and only these two subs and we'll be having a dialogue. If the OP wants to expand the OP, I'll be happy to expand my conversation accordingly. Right now, any conversation that's not centric to the XS30 and the VTF-15H is irrelevant as by going wide, random parameters are being thrown into the conversation that doesn't mirror the capabilities of the XS30 and the VTF-15H. Doing this does not make for valid comparisons nor do these random comparisons help the OP with their original question. If you want to recommend something other then what the OP asked about, by all means, do. If you think the XV15 is a better choice, then say so.

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Man you are dense. When you have Luke Kamp, Ack, dominguez, sputter and Mark Effin Seaton himself schooling you, when do you just throw up your hands and say "ok I get what you guys are saying and thank you?" Why can't you admit that you don't know everything? No one is saying that the PSA is a bad sub and no one is saying that the Hsu is a bad sub, but depending on your room and budget they will both make you happy, but that one may fit your needs better?

I don't mean to be rude, but on more than one occasion you have spewed misinformation and to people that don't know any better you are doing more harm than good. From what I can tell of your posts you are an older gentleman that peaked in the sixties that lives far in the mountains from civilization and you try to sound intellectual, but come off sounding pompous and misinformed.

Again, I don't mean to be rude, but sometimes people need to hear what others perceptions are and this is mine. I am far from an expert, but 2+ years of reading these forums I have a lot to learn and recognize who to learn it from.
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post #112 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints View Post

Man you are dense. When you have Luke Kamp, Ack, dominguez, sputter and Mark Effin Seaton himself schooling you, when do you just throw up your hands and say "ok I get what you guys are saying and thank you?" Why can't you admit that you don't know everything? No one is saying that the PSA is a bad sub and no one is saying that the Hsu is a bad sub, but depending on your room and budget they will both make you happy, but that one may fit your needs better?

I don't mean to be rude, but on more than one occasion you have spewed misinformation and to people that don't know any better you are doing more harm than good. From what I can tell of your posts you are an older gentleman that peaked in the sixties that lives far in the mountains from civilization and you try to sound intellectual, but come off sounding pompous and misinformed.

Again, I don't mean to be rude, but sometimes people need to hear what others perceptions are and this is mine. I am far from an expert, but 2+ years of reading these forums I have a lot to learn and recognize who to learn it from.

I know his name is Mark Seaton, not Mark Effin Seaton! tongue.gif
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post #113 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGresham View Post

The sub is going to be in a 6000-6500 ft^3 room/area. I don't have any box size restrictions.


I would look into the Rythmik FV15HP and the PSA XV30. Ported sub woud be preffered, with the potential of adding a second. The Hsu VTF 15H would still be a contender, but you may want duals.
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post #114 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I would look into the Rythmik FV15HP and the PSA XV30. Ported sub woud be preffered, with the potential of adding a second. The Hsu VTF 15H would still be a contender, but you may want duals.

+1. What was his budget again?
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post #115 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:23pm
To the OP, please post your room dimensions and some of these guys that know a lot more than you and I will help you with a very good decision for your needs without bias. I have faith in Dr. Poh Hsu as the man has been creating subwoofers for 20+ years and I am very intrigued by Tom of PSA, but admittedly I don't know as much about his work. What I do know is that both of these men have the class to not come into this thread and say that ones sub is better than the others even though they are both very active on this forum. I have a 15h and Tom actually advised me to get a second 15h instead of trying to mix one of his subs into the mix and that speaks volumes, but being in business for so short a time with his new company he still has many hurdles to conquer and I'm sure he will, but that is something that I myself have to take into consideration.

Look at eD, Epik and the (name that shall not be spoken on AVS) for examples. I always wanted a Hsu from the time I started into the home theater journey and I have one and will add onto that. Besides a Seaton or JTR which i cant afford at this time i have zero complaints. This is my experience and I advise you read as much as possible and make an informed decision on your own.
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post #116 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I know his name is Mark Seaton, not Mark Effin Seaton! tongue.gif
In this hobby, I believe he diserves the Effin part lol! /respect
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post #117 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I would look into the Rythmik FV15HP and the PSA XV30. Ported sub woud be preffered, with the potential of adding a second. The Hsu VTF 15H would still be a contender, but you may want duals.

With the size of the OP room I would have to agree with that, unless for some reason he really wanted to go with a sealed sub. Of course he could just say screw it and go with a JTR Captivator S1 or S2 and blow of the mentioned subs out of the water! wink.gif
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post #118 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints View Post

To the OP, please post your room dimensions and some of these guys that know a lot more than you and I will help you with a very good decision for your needs without bias. I have faith in Dr. Poh Hsu as the man has been creating subwoofers for 20+ years and I am very intrigued by Tom of PSA, but admittedly I don't know as much about his work. What I do know is that both of these men have the class to not come into this thread and say that ones sub is better than the others even though they are both very active on this forum. I have a 15h and Tom actually advised me to get a second 15h instead of trying to mix one of his subs into the mix and that speaks volumes, but being in business for so short a time with his new company he still has many hurdles to conquer and I'm sure he will, but that is something that I myself have to take into consideration.

Look at eD, Epik and the (name that shall not be spoken on AVS) for examples. I always wanted a Hsu from the time I started into the home theater journey and I have one and will add onto that. Besides a Seaton or JTR which i cant afford at this time i have zero complaints. This is my experience and I advise you read as much as possible and make an informed decision on your own.

Yeah, I never had Tom say a single thing bad about any of the competitions subs that I was also looking at the same time I was asking him about PSA subs. He really is a class act.
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post #119 of 149
2/6/13 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints View Post

To the OP, please post your room dimensions and some of these guys that know a lot more than you and I will help you with a very good decision for your needs without bias. I have faith in Dr. Poh Hsu as the man has been creating subwoofers for 20+ years and I am very intrigued by Tom of PSA, but admittedly I don't know as much about his work. What I do know is that both of these men have the class to not come into this thread and say that ones sub is better than the others even though they are both very active on this forum. I have a 15h and Tom actually advised me to get a second 15h instead of trying to mix one of his subs into the mix and that speaks volumes, but being in business for so short a time with his new company he still has many hurdles to conquer and I'm sure he will, but that is something that I myself have to take into consideration.

Look at eD, Epik and the (name that shall not be spoken on AVS) for examples. I always wanted a Hsu from the time I started into the home theater journey and I have one and will add onto that. Besides a Seaton or JTR which i cant afford at this time i have zero complaints. This is my experience and I advise you read as much as possible and make an informed decision on your own.

Don't you have an Outlaw? It's almost a Hsu subwoofer:D

I had both Hsu and SVS subs and loved them both. Had a Hsu VTF2.4 for a bit and than dual SVS 16-46ci's powered by a behringer ep2500. The 16-46's were my favorite set up but I couldn't keep them because it looked like I had two water heaters in my room (WAF approval was in the negative here).

To the OP, 6500 is pretty big! I would definitely consider getting either the: F15, FV15HP, VTF-15H, or PB-13U. Or if you could AIY, consider getting a flat pack with a SI 18 driver + Behringer amp.
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post #120 of 149
2/7/13 at 4:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGresham View Post

The sub is going to be in a 6000-6500 ft^3 room/area. I don't have any box size restrictions.

What about budgetary constraints?

For a room that size, quality subwoofer sound will need three or "four" subs. Personally, based on the size of your room, if you want big subwoofer sound, of your two choices, I'd recommend four XS30's. No matter, buying two or four subs, I would also recommend acquiring the ability to take room measurements and expend the necessary time to understand what the measurements are showing you so as to best integrate the subwoofers you do buy, into your room's acoustics.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/7/13 at 5:16am
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