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Mitsubishi HC5 vs. Sharp XV-Z30000 as a single PJ solution - Page 2

post #31 of 111
2/6/13 at 5:33am
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Congratulations with the 1st post!
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Originally Posted by steak2 View Post

Also the rumors about missing parts of the hc9000 are FUD based on a guess which became thruth by being cited in this thread.
Haha! Surely the more something is repeated on forums the truer it becomes. biggrin.gif The main and only source of such information on HC5 is Mark Haflich http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428712/mitsubishi-hc5-new-3d-sxrd-projector-based-on-hc9000-2500-euros/30#post_22872085
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post #32 of 111
2/6/13 at 6:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Agree on the over-dependence on professional reviews (e.g. hometheater has awarded their 'HT Top Pick" designation to 12 of the last 15 3D projectors they've reviewed). Having said that, consensus among reviewers adds some weight to their conclusions. AVSer anilrao has the Sharp and really likes it, but I have no idea what other PJs he's had... I suspect there will be more data points over the next month with the recent groupon deals. I'm concerned but not convinced that 24p content is handled improperly... the projector has a 24p mode... why have this if to simply do 3:2 pulldown? Kris Deering has passed along a query to Tom Norton (who did the HT review) about this to see if he remembers confirming the 'film' mode was activated. anilrao says he sees no judder with 24p content, FWIW. I posted a question (in retrospect, poorly worded) on the product support page about 24p handling and Sharp claims to not use pulldown for 24p... again FWIW. The bottom line is we need more data points on this projector to answer the very specific concerns that have been raised. My biggest concern, and why I've not jumped on the groupons is the brightness... far from ideal theater environment and have a strong suspicion the brightness is not up to my needs.

That would be my concern also. At 500+ lumens, mid zoom, high lamp and best image mode, does not look very impressive to me. Since I like to use my projectors in low lamp, best image mode, the Sharp would not be bright enough for me. For those with small screens or with screens that have enough gain, this may be fine for them. For those of us using AT woven screens, this projector will not be bright enough for most of us.
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post #33 of 111
2/6/13 at 6:43am
Are there any solid reviews of the HC5? How do we know the contrast is the same as the HC9000? Is the 3D the same as well?

The 9000 was criticized for average 3D (low lumen output / crosstalk). Basically the same as the VW90 which also took a good hit on 3D performance. This was improved in the VW95, but Mits never came out with V2.0 of the 9000.

I'd be curious to hear about 3D lumen output and see some of the crosstalk performance on the HC5.
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post #34 of 111
2/6/13 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

A lot that had to do with the fact that Sharp was taking business models and selling them as home theater models. The XV-Z17000 is a perfect example. I think they've learned their lesson.

What do you mean "taking business model"? XV-Z15000 wasn't business.
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post #35 of 111
2/6/13 at 6:54am
Really? I heard the hc9000 was brighter in 3D than the VW90. At www.projectorreviews.com it was stated, that it actually was the brightest 3D machine around that time. Kraine wrote somthing similar.
Almost all LCOS are dim in 3D and have crosstalk, some reviews state that and some say 3D is really good but they conseal the little term "for an LCOS". wink.gif
I think the HW50 is the only LCOS in that range, that makes it sgnifikantly better in terms of crosstalk since it is brighter and uses lamp dimming during the blanking cycle.
If 3D ist really important one should consider the HW50. I also would like to know how the hc5 performs and especially of what use the trude emitter is. However I thinks since the hc5 is a hc9000A it is quite uninteresting for a reviewer and everybody refers to the review of the hc9000.
Edited by steak2 - 2/6/13 at 7:06am
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post #36 of 111
2/6/13 at 7:49am
that's why I post 3D lumen output in my reviews. There's too many variances with different reviewers stating 'wow, X is bright than Y'. it's very easy to measure the lumen output in 3D, it needs to be included in reviews for objective comparisons.
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post #37 of 111
2/6/13 at 8:14am
Indeed lumens are quite helpful. I always wondered how imprecise it gets when it comes to 3d. Also a measure if crosstalk or pictures would be very helpfull. Stating that it is barely visible simply does not cut it.
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post #38 of 111
2/6/13 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

What do you mean "taking business model"? XV-Z15000 wasn't business.

They aren't marketed as business models. What Sharp did was basically take their business model design and heavily modify it for home theater use. There are quite a few posts here on the forum relating to what I'm saying. Even the hometheater.com review of the xv-z17000 talks a little about it:
Quote:
The new XV-Z17000 is very different in appearance. It’s smaller and looks to be a 3D adaptation of Sharp’s recent 2D offering, the XV-Z15000. Both appear to have sprung from Sharp’s business projector roots but have been heavily modified for home theater.

You can see the business projector DNA in this design through its quirky (for home theater) setup features. The focus and zoom are both manual. There’s no lens shift. There’s an image shift control, but this isn’t the same thing (image shift moves the image electronically within the borders of the DLP chip, a feature of little use in home theater). A Bright Boost control, which is useful if you’re doing a PowerPoint presentation in a bright conference room, is best left off for home video. And there are controls that let you correct for projection onto a concave, convex, or even spherical surface.

The model we're talking about now isn't like that at all it seems. This projector seems to have been built from the ground up as a home theater model and it shows.
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post #39 of 111
2/6/13 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

They aren't marketed as business models. What Sharp did was basically take their business model design and heavily modify it for home theater use. There are quite a few posts here on the forum relating to what I'm saying. Even the hometheater.com review of the xv-z17000 talks a little about it:
The model we're talking about now isn't like that at all it seems. This projector seems to have been built from the ground up as a home theater model and it shows.

While reviews seem to indicate that, it does appear thst it shares the chassis (and lens?), with a few of their biz PJs... http://www.sharpusa.com/ForBusiness/PresentationProducts/ProfessionalProjectors/XGSV100W.aspx
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post #40 of 111
2/6/13 at 6:51pm
Interesting. Seems to be the same exact model. The chip resolution is smaller and that model seems to put out considerably more light. Obviously it's more cost efficient to take one model and make modifications to it so it works under different circumstances. From the looks of it Sharp has done the same thing they did with the previous generation models (XV-Z15000/17000). Though they may have learned their lesson on what not to do. As you can see they have turned a business model into something that can be used in a practical home theater environment. Judging from reviews this seems to be the case.
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post #41 of 111
2/6/13 at 7:15pm
By Elix "It would be great if anilrao could evaluate Sharp's lens performance critically (sharpness, focus uniformity, chromatic abberations)."

I'll take a look more carefully this weekend as I have to do some tinkering in the theater.
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post #42 of 111
2/6/13 at 7:18pm
One thing I can say about the focus; I can see the individual DLP pixels when I'm standing right next to the screen when properly focused. I've only really checked dead center, but I'll take a look at the periphery later.
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post #43 of 111
2/6/13 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Wow, thanks, everybody. Wasn't expecting such feedback.
Ha! Touché! biggrin.gif It would be great if anilrao could evaluate Sharp's lens performance critically (sharpness, focus uniformity, chromatic abberations).
Sorry, I can't let that pass. Why does people believe in bad things so easily? If you will read further Tom will explain that his first measurement was compromised by the LEDs which were illuminating his screen http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/new-mitsubishi-hc-9000-full-hd-3d-and-lcos-panels/270#post_20391135
20000:1 is a number confirmed by many trustworthy reviewers:
http://www.cine4home.de/ measured 19000:1 - 24000:1 based on setup
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/mitsubishi-hc9000d.shtml#ansi measured 19000:1 - 33000:1 based on setup (last value is with iris half closed at -9, maximum throw distance)
http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/279-Mitsubishi-HC9000-5.html kraine measured 19333:1
and so on.

Contrast is one big plus which puts this projector above Sony HW50 for me.
http://www.cine4home.de/ measured 4000:1-6900:1 based on setup
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/sony-vpl-hw50es.shtml#ansi measured 5600:1 - 12700:1 based on setup (last value is with iris fully closed, maximum throw distance)
http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/279-Mitsubishi-HC9000-5.html measured around 4600:1

These are measurement taken by the same people in the same setups so I think it's trustworthy.

JVC has even more contrast (30000:1 - 40000:1 for X30) but is has a lot of negatives which pull me out of choosing it: big input lag (80+ ms), worse motion resolution, even worse 3D, color problems, lamp brightness problems, yellow/magenta banding, spots etc. Of course I could assume there are units without such problems. But at that price point I wouldn't gamble it.

In all fairness, Sony HW50 has 30 ms input lag (the best among LCoS projectors), but HC5 is fairly close at 40 ms. 10 ms is not worth the trade for 20000:1 vs. 5000:1 contrast. While 40 ms is a good trade for 40000:1 vs. 20000:1 contrast when we compare it to JVC. I wouldn't be able to play on JVCs at all.

Re. the Optoma HD8300. It has an upward throw and less placement flexibility. Also where did you see such contrast ratios? I saw around 1500:1 somewhere. And the DI is reported to be quite useless.
Here: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-optoma-hd8300-3d-hd-projector?page=0,1
All in all, I'm leaning towards HC5 more. I can see new HDMI 1.5 on the horizon and with it a 1080p60 3D projectors. Then I would probably buy a DLP and reap all other fruits such as 144 Hz 3D for 24 Hz content, better contrast ratios, better FI.

Sorry about the 5k:1 quote... Used the first avs google hit from someone I consider a reliable poster... Would have expected an edit on that post if faulty... Lesson learned. My main point still holds though, and that is that comparing CR measurements from different sources only goes so far... Kraine got 2200:1 on the w7000, HT 2700:1 on the hw50es... Is that indicative of a small native CR advantage for the Sony? Of course not. Multiple CR and direct user comparisons are more telling. The 2700:1 vs the <600:1 measured by HT using the same methodology for the hw50 and w7000 are more telling of the difference between the PJs. Having said that, I know of no one that has published CR for HC5 and xv-z30000 using the same methodology & setup. For sure the hc5 has higher CR than the Sharp... I seriously doubt it to be greater than an order of magnitude though. If CR is your top priority though, hard to beat the HC5 in this price range. I think you have your answer.
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post #44 of 111
2/6/13 at 7:43pm
Any idea where you can actually buy a HC5?
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post #45 of 111
2/6/13 at 8:24pm
There are a couple for sale on ebay. These were made in a limited quantity. They are going to be hard to find. You could also call AVScience. They may stock these.
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post #46 of 111
2/6/13 at 9:37pm
My dealer carries this model.
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post #47 of 111
2/6/13 at 9:46pm
Thread Starter 
They've fixed CMS problem on HC5 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/855329.jpg/
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post #48 of 111
2/7/13 at 1:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Sorry about the 5k:1 quote... Used the first avs google hit from someone I consider a reliable poster... Would have expected an edit on that post if faulty... Lesson learned. My main point still holds though, and that is that comparing CR measurements from different sources only goes so far... Kraine got 2200:1 on the w7000, HT 2700:1 on the hw50es... Is that indicative of a small native CR advantage for the Sony? Of course not. Multiple CR and direct user comparisons are more telling. The 2700:1 vs the <600:1 measured by HT using the same methodology for the hw50 and w7000 are more telling of the difference between the PJs. Having said that, I know of no one that has published CR for HC5 and xv-z30000 using the same methodology & setup. For sure the hc5 has higher CR than the Sharp... I seriously doubt it to be greater than an order of magnitude though. If CR is your top priority though, hard to beat the HC5 in this price range. I think you have your answer.

The methodology he used was flwed, since there probably was light from some LEDs spoiling the black level. AND yes, the differences in terms of CR betweend hc and the sharp actually IS greater than an order of magnitude. It is about 2000:1 native vs 20000:1 native. A difference of an order woeld be the HW50 (about 8000:1) hc5 and x35 awould be a dimension.
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post #49 of 111
2/7/13 at 4:58am
Not to pick words but going from 2k to 20k is an order of magnitude... 2k to 200k would be two orders of magnitude.
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post #50 of 111
2/7/13 at 7:22am
@steak... 2700:1 on the hw50 by hometheater was not flawed as far as anyone knows... are you thinking of the hc9000 CR I was corrected on?

I'm aware of the definition of 'order of magnitude' and I meant what I said. I doubt the difference is that high when measured in the same conditions with the same methodology... Has the hc5 actually been measured, or is everyone relying on the hc9000 numbers?
Edited by dougri - 2/7/13 at 11:19am
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post #51 of 111
2/7/13 at 9:40am
Thread Starter 
Over 40 new Sharp XV-Z30000s bought on groupon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Has the hc5 actually been measured, or is everyone relying on the hc9000 numbers?
Second.
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post #52 of 111
2/7/13 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Over 40 new Sharp XV-Z30000s bought on groupon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Has the hc5 actually been measured, or is everyone relying on the hc9000 numbers?
Second.

I am a complete projector newbie in the process of planning my first theater. But I don't really understand the allure of the groupon. I prefer the Panasonic AE8000 at this price range. Note I have never seen either of these in person but from the reviews and specs what puts the sharp above the panny?
Thanks!
Salem
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post #53 of 111
2/7/13 at 6:37pm
Well, the main thing for a newbie is to decide on DLP vs. LCD vs. SXRD vs. LCoS vs. etc.. It used to be just mainly DLP and LCD (well CRT also) and most people only went with LCD if they were very susceptible to RBE (rainbow effect). Today there are several other technologies all with pros and cons. Preference on what one thinks is the most important factors for them usually is the determining factor (lumens, noise, light spilage, convergence, throw distance, warranty, price, 3D, lens CA, sharpness, shadow detail, contrast ratio, CMS, FI, bang for buck, etc. etc.) Some of us like myself are partial to DLP and therefore hard to give up the pop for some others.
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post #54 of 111
2/7/13 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyekode View Post

I am a complete projector newbie in the process of planning my first theater. But I don't really understand the allure of the groupon. I prefer the Panasonic AE8000 at this price range. Note I have never seen either of these in person but from the reviews and specs what puts the sharp above the panny?
Thanks!
Salem

You might want to keep reading:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/sony-hw50-benq-w7000-epson-5020-jvc-rs55-jvc-rs-46-jvc-rs4810-jvc-rs56-mini-shootout-2012-2013/3450#post_22929644
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/sony-hw50-benq-w7000-epson-5020-jvc-rs55-jvc-rs-46-jvc-rs4810-jvc-rs56-mini-shootout-2012-2013/3450#post_22930343

Zombie10k is also going to review the Panny.
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post #55 of 111
2/26/13 at 3:15am
Thread Starter 
I decided to go with Sharp XV-Z30000 for cross-talk free 3D, better sharpness and motion resolution (also better ANSI contrast) and currently looking for good deals http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460140/sharp-xv-z30000 (I regret I missed the Groupon deal)
I choose Sharp over other DLP projector for greater placement flexibility (motorized everything, center offset and 2:1 zoom ratio) and for the fact is has one of the better dynamic irises out there.
Edited by Elix - 2/26/13 at 3:21am
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post #56 of 111
2/26/13 at 7:33am
Pretty nice projector. I would guess you won't be disappointed. I would also watch for another Groupon deal. Be patient.

Willie
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post #57 of 111
2/26/13 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

Pretty nice projector. I would guess you won't be disappointed. I would also watch for another Groupon deal. Be patient.

Willie

Willie-
Did you get a chance to measure the 30k's 3d brightness?
Edited by dougri - 2/26/13 at 8:07am
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post #58 of 111
2/26/13 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

I would also watch for another Groupon deal. Be patient.
How would you know there'll be another Z30000 deal? confused.gif Even if there'd be another one, it could be in 6 months from now for all we know.
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post #59 of 111
2/26/13 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Keep in mind the DLP's are forcing 3:2 in 3D mode, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Sharp was doing this, the Benq definitely does it, but the Benq is saved by the FI.
The difficult calibration controls on the Sharp would also be a worry for me. Not so much on a new lamp, but as the lamp ages I despise not having full calibration ability.

...........

There are the new 144 Hz. DC3 DMD chips now being used in the new BenQ W1070 and the upcoming, W1400 and W1500 series as well and some of the new Optoma projectors due out later this year. These appear to be using 3:3 pulldown in 3D mode with 72 Hz per eye, for 24 Hz inputs. I suspect 144 Hz DMDs will be migrating to many DLP manufacturer's products during this year.
Edited by Ron Jones - 2/26/13 at 8:16am
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post #60 of 111
2/26/13 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

How would you know there'll be another Z30000 deal? confused.gif Even if there'd be another one, it could be in 6 months from now for all we know.

what kind of prices are you seeing? the cheapest I saw was ~ $2350 on ebay from a reputable seller.

when you get it, can you measure the lumen output in 3D?
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