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Sony HW-50 via Pioneer SC-1522 HDMI Issues

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
When changing sources on the Pioneer Amp I notice long delays in syncing to the Projector ( White Noise Screen- 5-10 seconds ). I have tried using the amp video processing on and off, and tried different setting's regarding HDMI on the projector, all to no avail.
Also I can not use the HDMI out from the receiver that overlays screen information ( will not sync at all ). All Cables are new. Sources are DirecTV, Dish, AppleTV, LG BluRay, PS3, Boxee and ROKU. Since the projector and AVR are both 2012 models I did not think I would have
handshake problems. I have hooked up a older TV and it works perfectly. Anyone have any suggestions or idea's?
Thanks, Eddie
Edited by eddiew - 2/5/13 at 7:50pm
post #2 of 15
I can think of two possibilities. One is that you are getting bit errors and the other is that you have an HDMI option enable that isn't being properly recognized. How long are your HDMI cables and are they all High Speed? Do you have HDMI CEC or Deep Color enabled? If so, go into all device menus (not just the AVR) and disable Deep Color and CEC and pretty much any other HDMI option you can find.

I guess the third option is that the EDID isn't being decoded in firmware properly. So, also make sure all firmware is the latest in *all* devices.

One other thing you can do that will speed-up handshaking is to have your AVR up-convert all sources to 1080p. Basically you want to go into the AVR's HDMI menu and select 1080p scaling (if that option is available on the Pioneer). See if that speeds things up. Once you know that answer, you can then decide if you like the picture quality in that mode. Everytime a device changes resolution, handshaking must reoccur.
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the quick reply. My problem turned out to be a brand new 30 foot Monoprice Redmere HDMI cable. Replaced that and now all is good.
Thanks again.
post #4 of 15
Interesting. So bit errors were the cause. I would not have expected that with the Redmere but with an active component it is possible to have a defect.

What did you replace the Redmere with?
post #5 of 15
Remember, Redmere only helps the TMDS lines. It doesn't help DDC, which appears to be the source of the problem
post #6 of 15
Thread Starter 
I got two cables from Amazon so that I could try both. Mediabridge High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet (25 ft) - Ultra Series and AmazonBasics High Speed HDMI Cable (25 ft).
Both work great. I did manage to go from a 30 foot length to 25. I have never had a problem with Monoprice either. With the new cable it made 3D from DirecTV watchable. I just thought that DTV had bad quality on their 3D channels. With the Redmere the PQ was very grainy and/or bit starved looking. That being said 3D from my PS3 was perfect with movies like Prometheus. So, I find it very odd that once the projector locked on, some sources looked OK while others did not.
post #7 of 15
???? wow another picture quality improvement from cable changes... ???? hmmmm. I guess I can understand that somewhat depending on the error "recovery" method used in each case. Let's here it for "bit error counters / registers"..... :-)
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiew View Post

I got two cables from Amazon so that I could try both. Mediabridge High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet (25 ft) - Ultra Series and AmazonBasics High Speed HDMI Cable (25 ft).
Both work great. I did manage to go from a 30 foot length to 25. I have never had a problem with Monoprice either. With the new cable it made 3D from DirecTV watchable. I just thought that DTV had bad quality on their 3D channels. With the Redmere the PQ was very grainy and/or bit starved looking. That being said 3D from my PS3 was perfect with movies like Prometheus. So, I find it very odd that once the projector locked on, some sources looked OK while others did not.

Congratulations! You are now the poster child for attributing a result from something completely unrelated.

DirecTV uses Side By Side and Top and Bottom 3D. In other words DirecTV divides their 3D picture in half. If Side by Side is used, then the left half of the picture is a "complete" image for the left eye and the right half of the picture is sent to the right eye. That, of course, looks grainy because, at best, this is a 960 x 1080 picture for each eye. If you are watching a 720p 3D show, then it is a 640 x 720 picture per eye. That will look grainy but the amount of grain will change depending upon which of the 3D channels you are watching and what format they are using - 1080i SbS or 720p TaB or whichever combination is used. The quality of the program source material is also variable. So, unless you compared the exact same picture at the same moment, there is no way you could accurately tell a difference.

Your BD player uses frame packed 3D at 24Hz. Each eye gets a full 1920x1080 picture 24 times a second. Much sharper and a much better 3D picture than DirecTV can ever show (or has the bandwidth to show).

In terms of bitrate - both DirecTV and BD are using some form of H.264 compression for 3D. The difference is in the bitrates. DirecTV bitrates are much lower than what is capable with BD. You should also be aware that DirecTV's bitrates can be variable between channels. Some channel have minimum bitrates specified in their contracts to prevent bitstarving. You can assume the 3D channels do not.

For details of audio the maximum time the human brain can remember specific sharp details is about 10 minutes. I have no idea how much time video is retained for but unless you had two exactly tuned TVs side by side with the only difference being the cable, I'd say you really can't tell accurately whether or not there is a difference with the same exact picture.

Of course, if you did have two TVs side-by-side then I'd be very interested in your results and would like to hear more. However, if you really were comparing a DirecTV 3D picture versus a 3D BD picture then you successfully showed that the half-resolution DirecTV 3D picture was more blurry than the full resolution 3D BD picture.
Edited by alk3997 - 2/11/13 at 7:30pm
post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 
I have the Wimbledon Finals 3D recorded on my DTV receiver. With the Monoprice cable it is practically unwatchable. Replaced the cable and now it looks a lot better. Other channels look the same as far as PQ.
Edited by eddiew - 2/11/13 at 9:28pm
post #10 of 15
Actually, its probably likely if its an "i" based signal..... probably a "jitter issue". From my reading, there is some critical timings as part of the de-interlacing effort. If a "frame" (sub frame actually) arrives a "bit late", it will be tossed and then the process has to do something to make it up either repeating the previous frame or otherwise. This might make things kind of "ugly".... at least that's my take on it. You would have to take a look inside the display processing to see what it is doing during its recreation work.
The combination of a recorded event, how it is being stored, plus some "disadvantaged cabling" may be enough to cause significant issues... maybe. Again just my guess.
I think this is somewhat related to the other thread dealing with 1080i direct versus "receiver feed".
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiew View Post

I have the Wimbledon Finals 3D recorded on my DTV receiver. With the Monoprice cable it is practically unwatchable. Replaced the cable and now it looks a lot better. Other channels look the same as far as PQ.

So, if I understand correctly on ESPN 3D (720p TaB, I believe) you see a difference in picture quality while on the other DirecTV 3D channels you see no difference in picture quality? And somehow you are saying the HDMI cable "knows" that you are watching this one channel and it improves the picture quality for just that one channel? Also keeping in mind that HDMI doesn't use compressed data. HDMI transmits the bits corresponding to uncompressed pixels so that it really can't pixelate anything, such as MPEG2 or h.264 could.

The last time in your chain where pixelization can occur is in the DirecTV HD-DVR. That is where the compressed picture is converted to an uncompressed picture to send over HDMI.

It would help if you could be more descriptive in explaining how the picture is "unwatchable", since I'm assuming from your first post that you meant pixelated or bitstarved. My unwatchable and your unwatchable are probably very different. Actually what would really help are two still pictures of the same frame. Then we would have something concrete to discuss.
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
"So, if I understand correctly on ESPN 3D (720p TaB, I believe) you see a difference in picture quality while on the other DirecTV 3D channels you see no difference in picture quality?" Sorry, NO. All the DTV 3D channels looked bad. The Sony HW-50 is my first 3D capable projector and the Monoprice Redmere was the first HDMI cable that I tried also. I did not have any experience with 3D, so I just thought that the DTV 3D sucked. Which it does compared to Blu-Ray 3D. But it is much better now with the Monoprice out of the loop.
post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiew View Post

..But it is much better now with the Monoprice out of the loop.

How so?

I am very sceptical of your claim. I suspect others are, too. These are bits. If you are saying the cable is smart enough to change the bits in a way that makes the picture better, that's hard to believe.

So, how about some more information that explains or, even better, shows the differences? That would improve your credibility.

I can also tell you that lowering the temperature of your equipment 30 degrees will improve your picture quality. But, without proof why would you believe that?
post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 
"So, how about some more information that explains". . If I could explain it I would not have come to my favorite forum looking for help. From my first post I said the projector was having a hard time syncing. I'm sure another Redmere would probably be just fine. I was just trying to be nice by getting back to you since you we're the first person to try and help. Since then this thread has gone from me being a Poster Child to a Liar, so I'm out. Thanks again.
post #15 of 15
No, not liar. I am sure you think you are seeing something. What I'm trying to figure out is what you are seeing, which is why I am asking for more information. What I'm trying to get you to do is to describe the differences in more detail (including maybe some pictures).

I'm sorry if I was abrupt, but we get many people who ascribe capabilities to HDMI cables that can't possible occur. So, please if you're still reading this thread, let me know more details about specifically what the differences are that you think you see between the cables. I'm pretty well versed on DirecTV 3D because of the initial problems that DirecTV had with ESPN 3D and compatibility with projectors.
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