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If you are over 65 and have impaired color vision due to cataract yellowing you may want to... - Page 2

post #31 of 83
I am trying to sympathise with OP.
Seems he just needs to self adjust the controls to his liking.
That seems to be the crux of his concern.
Short of the calibrator holding up different cards of different colors and whites
for OP to comment on,
I don't see how anyone but OP can tune his set.
That OP wants a scientifically corrected calibration to his eyes
creates the need for his eyes to be measured.
Not possible.
post #32 of 83
Thread Starter 
I don;t get the above post.

First, the OP is ISF certified and has multitudes of meters ,calibration programs, and trainings. i don't want the calibrator (me) to do anything he doesn't want to.

I do consult with calibrators and those in the calibration program business.

And I don't need your sympathy but I really really appreciate you trying to give it to me. Really.smile.gif

I did talk to my cataract surgon today and he informed me that while such data was not on the info and record card I got with the new lens he inserted in my eye, it does have a slight yellow tint to it to filter out some blue. So that makes my bad eye even further off the correct value of white I am seeking. Obviously, the reference white I see from the new lens eye will be slightly towards yellow and not what the GD colorist wanted and the display calibrated produces. The surgeon said he had no data on the degree of the yellow tint but that it was very slight.

Qualified opthomalogists can employ certain tests to determine how far each of my eyes are off. I got a quote from one of the leading experts in this area who happens to reside within one hour of me, and the total cost including glasses with the right filters would be a paltry $8900. Kind of silly considering that sooner or later my left eye cataract will deteriorate enough so that the surgeon will feel the risks associated with cataract surgery become justified.But the point is don't post about getting the data is impossible in my case. it can be measured but it would be expensive.

Meanwhile I will self choose a blue lens which makes whites look the same as my new lensed eye. Pretty simple, assuming the where I go has a wider and granular range of bluefilters as i need to get an approximate match. Now my new lens eye is off a bit because of its yellow tint to the lens. I won't try and compensate. I'll tell the customer (me) that here are the des I got for calibrating his (my) set and look at the pretty graphs. I won't tell the ahole that the des he actually sees are bigger. He is too big an idiot to let that bother him much.

Oh yea, I hope the bue filter on top of my yellow catarac doesn't cut the light so much as the picture becomes too dime. by brain, as feeble as it is, should be able to balance out the brightness differences between the eyes' And as most old farts are, i was a FPO CRT guy for many years and can live with the whopping 7 ft lamberts i lived with in those FP days. Yea Yea. I used the Phillips meter with the lens bra caps to calibrate. The same model Joe Kasne used when he started calibrating 7 inch 3 tube CRTs.
post #33 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I don;t get the above post.

First, the OP is ISF certified and has multitudes of meters ,calibration programs, and trainings. i don't want the calibrator (me) to do anything he doesn't want to.

I do consult with calibrators and those in the calibration program business.

And I don't need your sympathy but I really really appreciate you trying to give it to me. Really.smile.gif

I did talk to my cataract surgon today and he informed me that while such data was not on the info and record card I got with the new lens he inserted in my eye, it does have a slight yellow tint to it to filter out some blue. So that makes my bad eye even further off the correct value of white I am seeking. Obviously, the reference white I see from the new lens eye will be slightly towards yellow and not what the GD colorist wanted and the display calibrated produces. The surgeon said he had no data on the degree of the yellow tint but that it was very slight.

Qualified opthomalogists can employ certain tests to determine how far each of my eyes are off. I got a quote from one of the leading experts in this area who happens to reside within one hour of me, and the total cost including glasses with the right filters would be a paltry $8900. Kind of silly considering that sooner or later my left eye cataract will deteriorate enough so that the surgeon will feel the risks associated with cataract surgery become justified.But the point is don't post about getting the data is impossible in my case. it can be measured but it would be expensive.

Meanwhile I will self choose a blue lens which makes whites look the same as my new lensed eye. Pretty simple, assuming the where I go has a wider and granular range of bluefilters as i need to get an approximate match. Now my new lens eye is off a bit because of its yellow tint to the lens. I won't try and compensate. I'll tell the customer (me) that here are the des I got for calibrating his (my) set and look at the pretty graphs. I won't tell the ahole that the des he actually sees are bigger. He is too big an idiot to let that bother him much.

Oh yea, I hope the bue filter on top of my yellow catarac doesn't cut the light so much as the picture becomes too dime. by brain, as feeble as it is, should be able to balance out the brightness differences between the eyes' And as most old farts are, i was a FPO CRT guy for many years and can live with the whopping 7 ft lamberts i lived with in those FP days. Yea Yea. I used the Phillips meter with the lens bra caps to calibrate. The same model Joe Kasne used when he started calibrating 7 inch 3 tube CRTs.

and I don't understand your posts.
you say you are skilled yet want to disrespect the whole process.
aparantly you went to someone who showed you cards to check your color
accuety.
now what?
9k glasses or a special calibration?

or is it just inflammatory statements like the thread title?

yeah, I have issues with my eyes too. I won't try to fool them anymore than they are now.
And yeah, I find myself calibrating to lower and lower FTL.
I also like CRT and the light levels.
post #34 of 83
Thread Starter 
OK I will try in spell it out more simply.


The calibration of displays assumes a created standard observer.

Recently, there has been been an addendum to the CIE standard but I think that doesn't go far enough. How calibrators have taken this into account I haven't a clue but Spectralcal is providing for this to some extent and more may be in the future providing for the age of the customer because of a yellow bias and others that become prevalent after the age of 60 in males. Gets a lot worse after 70. I won't cite the literature but I trust you can google.

But the display calibration is flawed. Because for HT use, the customer want's to see the colors as the colorist intended. There is a perception that what the display shows is what one sees. That isn't the case and what is needed is a way to calibrate for the specific observer and not a standardized observer.The title is really not imflamatory. For many, you will see the colors wrong desoite the wonderfull graphs and chart printouts the calibrator gives you to show you how well he did id job.

My recent cateract operation, now with one eye eseentially clear and one eye heavily yellowed, how much my perception of correct color was off in both my eyes prior to the operation. This yellowing occurs gradually and one simply does not notice it happening. But wow it does happen and at 67 (aided by my diabeties) my eyes have really yellowed filter wise. For the elder population over say 60, a color calibration going full CMS etc may be a waste of money. You will not see the colors as the artist professionals intended. But with a calibration you will see them constent with the way you see them under outside 6500K conditions, Its really freeking great to be able to see them always consistently wrong.

Assuming no catarac replacement, it would appear that if the degree of color filtraton was known as well as I suppose cone responses etc in the customer, a set offset could be calibrated into the the display. Pumping in a whole bunch of blue gain for example. Amount unknown but the eyes can be measured by medical professionals and somehow the color wiz kids like Sotti could come up with specific offsets.

If one cataract has been replaced, then the problem increases. First, whether you like it or not, you will see how badly your color vision has deteriorated. You may like the shift toward yellow. But you won't see the colors as the industry and our beloved base of humantarian calibrators, I know onw who seriously had to undergo years of treatment because he became obsessed with fighting Washington DC in order to try and legislate everything Joe Kane pontificated for video wise. I like Joe. I also liked Ike.

The problem of the yellow eye seeing incorrectly compared to the corrected lens eye, the one operated on, would be to add the right value of filter to the uncorrected eye by a tinted eye glass lens. I assume this would be some degree of blue and I suspect quite a lot. Perhaps a 50% blue tint but I don't know yet.


The other solution would be to do nothing except crank in more blue so that both eyes together as processed by one's brain see what ione remebers the operated eye alone.


I hope this is a fair summary but I will correct it in response to comments.


I haven't been tested by anybody yet. No cards. Where did you get that from?

Now why this thread and the title that got you here..

All this wasn't obvious to me. I needed help from others to think it through. I wanted participation and the best way to attract calibrators is to err attack their art. And yes their art and science is flawed especially when used for older people It appears steps in the right direction are being taken but I guarantee over 99% of calibrator don't know.

I myself never was aware of any of this before my cataract operation. And I suspect most people here were unaware also. Bringing a problem up brings brains to the forum table and often solutions arise. The trick is getting the right brains to the table. And putting up a nude picture of a beautiful woman, I didn't do that of course, or waiving a red flag title, which is true I believe, gets the brains to the table. Unfortunately it can attract some not in that category.

BTW What was the point of your first post and your disrespect comments? The process is flawed. That is not the same as disrespecting it. Though frankly I do not respect many calibrators, I do respect the real pros but getting an ISF certification is akin to graduating elementary school at best.posts in this thread?

If you don't understand any of this or the intent of this thread and how the posts by other have helped me think this through, PM me. I think most will understand and will correct me if necessary,
Edited by mark haflich - 2/8/13 at 6:36am
post #35 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Though frankly I do not respect many calibrators, I do respect the real pros but getting an ISF certification is akin to graduating elementary school

I'm just getting started with my 'self-calibrating' after seeing what the guy calibrating my projector did to the quality of the image. I'm starting very basic with ChromaPure standard and the D3 meter. But, please forgive my ignorance, what the calibrator does is basically use his high quality meter and a program to set all the values to as correct as he can within the program, so what does a so called 'Pro' do that a regular qualified calibrator can't? other than having a few tricks that can save him some time in the process. Won't the end picture be basically the same once all the the values fall within the appropriate standard deviation of Rec 709? isn't it the meter and the program that is doing the real work with the calibrator/operator just manipulating the controls?

If you had 10 calibrators calibrating a projector using the same gear, wouldn't the projector post calibration pretty much be the same?
post #36 of 83
^^^ Look.... anybody can do ANYTHING. I can draw pictures. None of them will ever appear in a gallery for sale though. You can purchase a kit to custom-emboss your own leather belt but it's not likely to look as good as one purchased from a leather artisan with decades of experience (ditto for tattoos, or iron work, sculpture, and on and on). Your neighbor might understand conceptually how to wire a house, but having never done one before, would you trust him to wire YOUR house? Given time and tools and money, I could create a new leather interior for a classic car, but it's not likely to ever be up to the standards of the same interior done by a shop that specializes in such things (assuming it isn't a cut-rate/cut-corners sort of shop).

The best calibrations are a mix of art, experience, study, hardware (and knowledge of it), software (and knowledge of it), constantly updating your gear (new stuff comes along that invalidates older equipment... HD requires new hardware for calibration, so does 3D, so will UHD, even LED backlights from newer LCD TVs can be problematic for inexpensive meters), and constantly updating your knowledge of calibration because there are new products every year and what worked last year doesn't necessarily work this year. It is foolish to think there would be no difference in the final calibration result produced by someone who spent 100 hours studying calibration (and practicing) and who spent $300 or less on a meter and software versus a competent pro calibrator with $5000-$20,000 invested in hardware and software who calibrates TVs regularly and has access to the experience of other calibrators and even manufacturers who sometimes have someone who provides specific info/help for calibration of that brand.

Now... you take a hobbyist who is serious about calibration and he spends money on formal training, gets a high-performance meter (possibly well beyond the 100s of dollars most hobbyists are willing to spend on a meter), and have him dedicate many weeks of study every day to a single model of TV so this person learns that TV intimately... now your getting into a zone where an individual could potentially achieve pro-caliber results with a calibration of THAT particular model of TV. But that hobbyist will have invested many thousands of dollars, not a few hundred. And the time commitment would have been substantial as well.
post #37 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

If you had 10 calibrators calibrating a projector using the same gear, wouldn't the projector post calibration pretty much be the same?

Maybe, maybe not.

One of the big differences between a true professional and someone just doing their job, is how well they understand why they are doing something and not just how to do it. This usually dovetails into the lengths they go through to fully optimize the picture versus creating some nice charts for post data. The charts and graphs in calibration software are just snap shots of part of what the TV is doing. Sometimes you'll see things like using a CMS control past value X causes banding or posterization, so sacrificing a perfect graph to improve the actual image is a better choice.

Then there is all the science that goes into perceptive models, understanding color theory, differences between spectrophotometers and colorimeters, ect...

The guy at Jiffy Lube is a Mechanic, the guy at the ford dealership is a mechanic, and the guy wrenching on F1 cars is a mechanic.
Who would be your choice to work on your car?
post #38 of 83
Thread Starter 
Yes and no. I doubt the accuracy would not very very much except at the very low end. A good calibrator would not only set the baisc parameters and the color controls but will be able to understand and use a variety of other controls and settings. a pro calibrator will understand the proper way of setting up a projector including mounting it correctly and minimizing the use of lens shift. The differences associated with choosing an appropriate throw differences. there are lots of things.

a pro calibrator will also take into account what the customer wants. If the customer wants a brighter picture for example. Also a pro will have some inkling that what the customers sees may not be the colors measured off the screen. a pro calibrator will consider the customer rather than just the theoretical results. and a prowill make the customer happy. Its more like a doctor patient relationship than just a scientist setting the display to a set standard. the calibrator will educate the customer. a pro just won't impose a set 2.2 gamma and tell a customer that's the standard when it isn't.. This post should be somewhat controversial. But calibration for the end user in a HT is a combination of art and science and not just science as many here would perhaps advocate.

in the old days, we had few calibration controls. CMS? It didn't exist. We set gray scale at two pints. We could chose the stimulus points, 20, 80, 20, 100 and try and get the straightest temperature line. We could defocus the blue om 3 beam projectors to improve gray scale tracking. Art, not science. We could modify color decoders and correct for decoding errors caused by misdesigned decoders. A famous resistor change. we even modified blue drive cards to compensade for the pecularities of the blue tube compared to the red and the grean. We now can do multipoint calibrations. We can add a processor to make things a lot more accurate too.

Some of my best friends calibrators are just science oriented. They lose sight of the non standardized observer. Science doesn't take that into account, at least not fully yet and most calibrators have no clue. Its simplier to just see, it measures right now and I have finished my job. For some, in reality that will be the start and not the finish.



Its amazing how we collectively have progressed in the science of calibration. And it started with the great Joe Kane who the manufacturers laughed at in the early and mid 80s.
post #39 of 83
It all sounds good, especially the fact that calibration is part art. But isn't the purpose of rec709 having your display set to the same standard as the directors so when he authorizes a blu-ray you are watching what the director intended you to see? is that not the purpose of a standard? If my car called for the tire pressure to be at 34lb and the oil to be 4.1l with 5W30 as a standard, I don't really care if a F1 mechanic of the Jiffy lube guy does it as long as it meets the standard. I'm not going to let my calibrator do warranty work on my components but I'll let him mess around with the tire pressure. (oversimplified I know)

So if a 'pro' calibrator, not just an ISF elementary certificate guy, who has an eye for calibration and deviates from the rec709 standard because his art tells him to....what if he has a yellow filter eye like yours Mark? I think that's why there is a standard and meters are used because the eye can't see as well as a meter. Just my opinion that will likely change as I start this learning process.

Knowledge and understanding... I do get it but I've meet some extremely smart people with little education and some really unsmart ones with a lot. Passion and understanding, that's what matters (having $50 grand in gear doesn't hurt either).


I know there is a lot more to calibration than what meets the eye tongue.gif I'll be finding out here in the next week or so when my meter arrives. I'm looking forward to learning.
Edited by Crabalocker - 2/8/13 at 2:48pm
post #40 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

It all sounds good, especially the fact that calibration is part art. But isn't the purpose of rec709 having your display set to the same standard as the directors so when he authorizes a blu-ray you are watching what the director intended you to see?
Yes but what do you do when your display can't do that?
It is mostly science, the art part comes in when the screen fails to meet the standard. How do you gracefully compromise to provide the least obvious error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

If my car called for the tire pressure to be at 34lb and the oil to be 4.1l with 5W30 as a standard, I don't really care if a F1 mechanic of the Jiffy lube guy does it as long as it meets the standard. I'm not going to let my calibrator do warranty work on my components but I'll let him mess around with the tire pressure. (oversimplified I know)

Well the jiffy lube's tire pressure gauge is +- 2psi and I had a buddy who had a canister style oil filter they installed backwards and his motor blew on the way home.
I took a car I was setting up for autocross to a firestone for alignment and they used a ballpen hammer on my camber/caster plates.

You never know when your request will exceed the understanding of an underskilled worker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Knowledge and understanding... I do get it but I've meet some extremely smart people with little education and some really unsmart ones with a lot. Passion and understanding, that's what matters (having $50 grand in gear doesn't hurt either).

I think that was the whole point. The "Pro" is the one that cares about his craft and isn't satisfied till he gets it right. The other guy just wants to bang out his work.
post #41 of 83
Thread Starter 
An example suppose you have a JVC from a few years back.. Working around a CMS that was defective. Or today some models not having a green primart of the required saturation. Having to use part of the THX setting but not all of it. Knowing tricks of the trade. Knowing where and what compromoses to make to give the best results. And deviating from the rec 709 display standard to ,,, so that while the display may be not correct, what the customer's eyes see is closer the the volorists and director's intent. What is the purpose of a calibration. To make a display right if your eyes need an offset?. Or what to to do doing an xyY calibration and running out of enoug Y somewhere.

Sorry. A car can be made to perform bettter by changing somethings from the way the factory sets it. Changing the timing a bit, leaning the fuel mixture. Tuning a car so that it performs best for the intended use.

Let's take the Sony 1000ES. Use the white bars and setting the contrast to 100 tests OK. But you simply can't calibrate it best from a variety of standpomts unless you crank the contrast down to 90. A pro calibrator will reach that conclusion quickly. An ISF certied Jow won't. He goes by the numbers.

The pluge pattern the ISF guy may use shows perfect brightness setting. But there may be better pluge patterns to use in a specific situation especially considering the contrast setting.


You can end up with measuring everything correctly amd have it look like eh. You can customize a gamma increase the contrast a bit higher and make a happy customer. You are stuck with the idiotic screen size and gain a customer chosed before you got there. But damn with a little deviation you can make the set up sing even though you make things brighter then they should.
Edited by mark haflich - 2/8/13 at 5:28pm
post #42 of 83
Thread Starter 
Well I tried a blue lens on my yellow filter eye and it really cut down the light too much. Nest on my metered calibration where the blue gain on my 1000ES was set to minus 26, I raised it ti minus 8. Using both eyes white looks the same on the metered setting minus 26. White looks white. The art of calibrating for a handicapped viewer.
post #43 of 83
I find it surprising that someone who has been doing calibration for a long time would reach this conclusion.
It doesn’t matter how you perceive color, whether you’re colorblind or have cataracts.
It wouldn't matter if what I saw as green, you saw as red or pink or yellow or anything else.

Calibration is about meeting a standard - in this case BT.709.
I know this is not the case, but for simplicity, let's say that the goal of BT.709 was to match reality exactly.

So if you calibrate your display to BT.709, anything you display on it looks exactly as you see it in real life.
Mid-day sun on the TV looks like mid-day sun if you step outside. Skintones are flawless. Grass, trees, fruit etc. is like you are looking through a window.

Then one day you have a cataract removed. Suddenly, everything through that eye looks blue.

Do you need to adjust the display?

No. Because how your eye perceives color doesn’t matter. Mid-day sun, Skintones, grass, trees, fruit etc. in the real world and the TV still match up identically. Your eyesight hasn't changed that.

There is no objectively correct way to perceive the world through your eyes - you just have to go with what you were given.

While it may be a shock immediately after your surgery, your brain will "recalibrate" and help reduce the difference between the two eyes. As a calibrator, you should already be aware that the eye automatically adjusts to the predominant color temperature of light it sees, which is why you cannot correctly adjust white balance without instrumentation, for example. (Though I will admit that after years of doing it and looking at calibrated displays all day long, I am getting pretty good at it)

For as far back as I can remember, I have always had one eye slightly more blue and the other more red. But I never notice it with both eyes open, or unless I am specifically looking at a white piece of paper and closing each eye alternately. It has no bearing on my calibration.

What you certainly would be able to do if you feel it necessary, would be to add a yellow lens over the "good" eye, as that should help equalize them. It won't work the other way around, as the eye with the cataract will already be dimmer. But you will probably find that after a few weeks it has stopped bothering you, the way that most eyeglass wearers do not notice chromatic aberrations. (If they ever did) Or if it does still bother you, it will probably not need as severe a correction as you initially thought.
post #44 of 83
^^ What he said.

Also, try and find a yellow filter that matches the one in your eye, and that will fit over your meter. Meter the TV with the yellow filter attached. Job done! Your TV will look better then real life!
post #45 of 83
Thread Starter 
You are entitled to your opinion.

No customer who pays for a calibration in his HT does it because he wants the colors to be different than whoever in the movie production chain wanted them to lo to the ewatcher of a movie.

For a normal viewer calibrating to the mastering standard will do that. Some of the colors will have been moved by the colorist from their true location to one within rec 709. Hopefully, within a few years we will have much wider color spaces and longer bit lengths yada yada,

No my scientific calibrator friends. I want to see the colors as the movie production team intended. That was probably in their right location within the DCI space but will let it go ad say the miserable limited rec 709 space. Yea. Your color God sucks. But a new day is coming slowly.

Now the customers should say, I want to se it as they intended me to see it. Duh. that's why the 3D customer says, calibrate through the glasses PLEASE, offset those filters in the glasses.
WTF does it make that th customer has filters in his eye instead of in his 3D glasses. Not the NORMAL assumed filters of the standardized observerer.I can't do that. i use a meter not your eyes. Imposssible Good bye.
I am here to make it consistently wrong for you, Consistent as you would see it wrong on the set assuming it was shot under d65 light, yea right, or as you would see them under d 65 light. I am Fing Holy and I calibrate to make your display look like all other calibrated displays within your and their display limitations.There is no objectively rigght color for your eyes. Just for displays and then displayes viewed under ideal conditions.h

I've done my job and I am freekin great. Pay me. Goodbye.

Everyone thinks I will get used to the color inbalance. I never said I wasn't used to it. I have no problem seeing with it. My brain, to the extent I have one, melds the two different call them data streams coming from each eye and I see a color spectrum halfway or so between the two.

My problem here is knowing that what I see is not what was intended and how that can be fixed.

Years ago i and those at FP projector factories actually used our eyes to calibrate. WTF. No. Tell me no. No meter. What would you do. Go home?

No. We hade 6500 degree comparators. Joe Kane sold one. I once had a box with a 6500K flurescent bulb, through holes drilled on a board pannel to stimulate varies stimulus levels, 20, 80 etc, I don't rember the three exactly and then through a piece of diffuse glass or plastic. Every technician that calibrated at the factory used that box as his gray scale calibration tool, that and his eyes.

Don't tell me about calibration and solutions , idiotic solutions, to maintain the error I see. I guess some of you are so stuck, you are meter and standard guys and that's the goal.

It may be when a display job is to exactly be the sme as another display.but you guys should not be allowed in a customer's HT. And you shouldn't be brain washing consumers. I want the calibrator who understands his job is to make the HT produce the best picture it can for the customer. The most accurate through the eyes, not before it. Who knows when to put his meter away and make it look it better to the viewer. The calibrator who makes it the best looking despite it not meeting all standards, because of display limitations, a primary color not having enough saturation, a screen being too big, the lighting or ewalls not being ideal..You know the fecal an expert calibrator of HTs, who has enough business to list it as his primary occupation deals with every day.


What this thread was about was the filtering in the eyes of old people, something I was unaware off. How much my eyes had yellowed and how to deal with one clear eye and one yellow now. How to make the colors i se right and not how to make them consistentl wrong. Can you grasp the concept. And we are dealing with two different filters. Finding the yellow one that matches my bad eye and putting it on the meter won't help.

i appreciate the posting but you I am afraid can't get around the system to find a workable solution. Just say its normal and there is no actual standard for what you see. BS. The standard is the display standard unde ideal viewing conditiions and by niormal eyes. Its absolute. Its what I want. The concept is devising offsets to calibrate for the last step, not where the meter measures, before the eyes, but through the eyes. If it could be done by some sort of meter, you guys would do and shout to the customer probably making him deaf that you did it. But no. Your tools are limited, you can't do it with a meter, a chart, a ptrogram, so belittle trying to do it. I think I will call you it is what it is guys

I have raised a real world problem Calibrating for the eyes the customer has..
post #46 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


I have raised a real world problem Calibrating for the eyes the customer has..

This of course assumes that anyone person fits the standard observer model. Now what do you do when you have 2 people viewing, 3, 4, etc. What if their ages vary? I have had cataract surgery in both eyes. color hue is very similar in both eyes, contrast and hence saturation is higher in one. So do we need to be diagnostic optometrist as well as calibrators. Do we need have color analysers that automate measurement of each individual eye of each regular visitor and build a composite image to match the group or regular viewers or do we need to wear color correcting lenses specific to each eye.

On top of that vision is not the same, but changes across hours and days depending on health, fatigue a zillion factors. Here's one for you. Two years ago testing my right eye there was definite signs of Red - Green colorblindness. Never occurred in any eye test before. With my right eye I was unable to make out the hidden number in several of the patterns. Could not see pattern there period. Another test a year later at my next regular exam. I fully expected to see even more Red - Green color blindness... not only did the color blindness not get worse it was totally gone!.

So good luck! Currently it is hard enough to calibrate to a standard observer model. Trying to color correct for one or more individuals sounds like a job for the opthamologist and optometrists of the world not Home Theater calibration guys.
post #47 of 83
Thread Starter 
That's all true. displays age too. Very quickly sometimes.

But there could standardized offsets based on such things as sex, not how much you get, but gender wink.gif and age. And thingsquickly change post 60 years. No the calibrator won't have the training and instrumentation to do it by measurements. That's where listening to the customer and art comes in. Ask the customer how does the white look for example. Its not impossible. I just made it a lot better for me by deviating from the meter readings. Clearly it is better and I am seeing the colors closer to what the sopurce makers intended.r
post #48 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

But there could standardized offsets based on such things as

Yeah, there probably could be. But considering it takes years to get a standard implemented that fits the greater population as a whole, surely you can understand that you're pushing **** up a hill!
post #49 of 83
Thread Starter 
I think Sotti mentioned about providing differently for men and women And I am not talking about an official standard bt some standard setting bodies. There are several studies of color vision in age groups 60 and beyond and it is safe to say ay 65 just about would have some cataracts and yellowing.

I understand about calibrating for all likely to be in a home theater but I would bet most would not meet the definition of the standard observer based on the definition of same for the 1931 chart.even as amended.

Most projectors have several memories for gray scales and even digfferent CMS settings. So the crackerjack calibrator could provide several set ups including one for when the optically handicapped viewer is watching alone.

Nne of this is brain science.

You ask your customer after going by the book and setting all des to vanishing small numbers. What do you see?.

Duh, it looks kinda yellow to me.

Maybe I can help, just don't t tell Joel Silver, he might take my certification away. Let me crank in some more blue to the gray scale at the gain end. Try this, try that. Stop. It looks white to me know just like I remember white refrigerators looking and black and white tile patterns and Santy's beard. Peter Wabbit. Whatever.

I f you asked a 1000 HT owners what they wanted calibration for, they would largely say I want to see the colors the way the Director intended. Well Mr. Senior, Ii can calibrate the display to the exact standards but you won't be seeing the colors as the Director and colorist intended. Your eyes because of your age have yellow filters in them toi some degree. Me? Yea look at this white screen, does it look pure snow white white to you. Err no. Its a little beige. OK. We have no standards but I think by playing a little bit with my paint brush. What? Nevermind, with the gray scale I can make it look to you closer to correct than if the display is set to and produces right to the specifications. What do you think the customer would say? He might even give you a tip. You are not only a great calibrsator, after all you passed the ISF test and have calibrated X number of sets, but you is an ARTEIST. Make your Mammy proudr
post #50 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

can calibrate the display to the exact standards but you won't be seeing the colors as the Director and colorist intended.

This is clearly the bone of contention.

I understand what you say about listening to the customer, but honestly, what a (general) waste of time. If we lived in a perfect world your ideas would make a lot more sense to me. However, we live in a world where I hazard to guess that the vast majority (at least with viewing calibration) don't have a clue what they what. Separate yourself from these forums. Go and have a look at things like "ambilight".

What you are asking of calibrators is well above and beyond the standard service. Are you willing to pay more! How does the calibrator know that you actually might have some slight idea about what you are talking about, and not just some yahoo that wants over saturated colors because that's what he likes.

IMHO, the system as it is now is not broken. It has it's flaws with the current technology and standards (bt-709, 8-bit, etc etc), but it works and it works well. You are a specialized case (and I do not mean that in a bad way), you are not happy with your TV reproducing the same images as you see in the real world, you want corrections in place to have your display equipment produce the same images as if you still had very good eyes. But you sir, are in a very very minor subset of the greater pool.

What you want is not something that is going to become mainstream in any short amount of time. You need specialized calibration to suit your unique viewing requirements, and as such, you should seek a professional who is willing to work with your unique requirements (and expect to pay for it).

Or, like I said above. Find a yellow filter that matches the color shift of the ones in your eyes, and calibrate with that. I don't understand what your problem with this advice is!
post #51 of 83
To me, this sounds like you are completely misunderstanding the fundamentals of calibration.
It is practically impossible to know what another person is seeing through their eyes, whether that is you, me, the guy doing color grading work in the mastering process, the film director etc.

It doesn’t matter if we all see things differently. Everything is adjusted around a common reference point. Calibration is focused on bringing the display as close to that reference point as possible.

White balance is not something that is a personal preference. I certainly hope you have not been paid to go round and calibrate someone’s display, then set it to 7500K because they are used to 10,000K and think D65 looks too “yellow”. The point of a common reference is that you can look at it and objectively say “this is white”. It might take you a while to adjust to it if you have been used to looking at a display that was set to 10,000K, but setting it to anything else means you are not viewing content as intended.

The reality is that D65 is actually slightly blue (Illuminant E, which is closer to D55, is actually neutral white) and corresponds to roughly mid-day sun in western/northern Europe.


The problem here is that you suddenly have two eyes that are perceiving the world differently from each other. In time, you would hope that your brain will “recalibrate” to ignore a lot of that color difference, but the reality is that there will probably still be some kind of difference.

The only way to correct for that, is to put a yellow lens in front of your eye so that they are the same. I don’t suggest doing that now, because if you correct it externally, then your brain is not going to do anything to try and equalize the difference between them.

You can’t adjust a display so that it looks “correct” by eye if both eyes are perceiving things differently.
And the reality is that your “blue” eye is actually seeing color more accurately than before. This doesn’t require a change in the display.


I understand what you are saying though - that if you have cataracts in both eyes, so they are now yellowed, you could in theory calibrate the display to be more blue to cancel that out. But there is no way to measure the degree to which they have yellowed, to figure out what kind of correction they need.
And because cataracts are a gradual process, your brain has effectively been compensating for this yellow tint the whole time. Even if you could somehow measure that your eyes needed +850K or +1500K to see “true” D65 when you set the display like that, it will look too blue.

Why will it look too blue? Because D65 is a reference point that is based in reality, and everything you see through the cataract is too yellow, whether that's the display you are looking at, or if you step outside.
So mid-day sun through your eyes will look yellower than it should, along with everything else in the world. If you adjust the display any differently, it no longer matches up with reality, and stands out as looking blue.
post #52 of 83
Good post Chronoptimist. I agree 100%.
post #53 of 83
Mark,

Research shows the average observers color vision is changing with age throughout our lifetime. This change accelerates after we reach 60. Obviously, surgical corrections like you have had can add additional complications. Adding some level of color correction to balance your eyes makes sense to me.

It is also a fact that our ability to dark adapt also changes with age. This is covered in the other document.

In my opinion these facts do not negate the benefit of calibration. For example, I recently purchased a projector from a dealer that was calibrated poorly by their in-house technician. It was unwatchable for me. After working the machine over it is a wonderful product. The fact that my eyesight will be somewhat different than others does not diminish the benefits of properly setting up this display or any other that can deliver a quality image. I believe focusing on the color of white alone is a mistake. I find other errors are typically more egregious in many displays. It is also a fact that many displays in peoples homes are not too blue that I work on. Making a display's white balance less green or red than D65 in a Rec. 709 application is always a good thing.

Dark Adaptation.pdf 324k .pdf file

Yellowing of the eye with age.pdf 512k .pdf file
post #54 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

To me, this sounds like you are completely misunderstanding the fundamentals of calibration.
It is practically impossible to know what another person is seeing through their eyes, whether that is you, me, the guy doing color grading work in the mastering process, the film director etc.

It doesn’t matter if we all see things differently. Everything is adjusted around a common reference point. Calibration is focused on bringing the display as close to that reference point as possible.

White balance is not something that is a personal preference. I certainly hope you have not been paid to go round and calibrate someone’s display, then set it to 7500K because they are used to 10,000K and think D65 looks too “yellow”. The point of a common reference is that you can look at it and objectively say “this is white”. It might take you a while to adjust to it if you have been used to looking at a display that was set to 10,000K, but setting it to anything else means you are not viewing content as intended.

The reality is that D65 is actually slightly blue (Illuminant E, which is closer to D55, is actually neutral white) and corresponds to roughly mid-day sun in western/northern Europe.


The problem here is that you suddenly have two eyes that are perceiving the world differently from each other. In time, you would hope that your brain will “recalibrate” to ignore a lot of that color difference, but the reality is that there will probably still be some kind of difference.

The only way to correct for that, is to put a yellow lens in front of your eye so that they are the same. I don’t suggest doing that now, because if you correct it externally, then your brain is not going to do anything to try and equalize the difference between them.

You can’t adjust a display so that it looks “correct” by eye if both eyes are perceiving things differently.
And the reality is that your “blue” eye is actually seeing color more accurately than before. This doesn’t require a change in the display.


I understand what you are saying though - that if you have cataracts in both eyes, so they are now yellowed, you could in theory calibrate the display to be more blue to cancel that out. But there is no way to measure the degree to which they have yellowed, to figure out what kind of correction they need.
And because cataracts are a gradual process, your brain has effectively been compensating for this yellow tint the whole time. Even if you could somehow measure that your eyes needed +850K or +1500K to see “true” D65 when you set the display like that, it will look too blue.

Why will it look too blue? Because D65 is a reference point that is based in reality, and everything you see through the cataract is too yellow, whether that's the display you are looking at, or if you step outside.
So mid-day sun through your eyes will look yellower than it should, along with everything else in the world. If you adjust the display any differently, it no longer matches up with reality, and stands out as looking blue.

The problem is the brain accepts the color change or you do. your brain can't change the color from a yellow white to a white white or a blue white. You just give in and accept it. The yellowing of both eyes is gradual, you may not even noice it unless les I bitch slap you and say, come on you old fart, how does that white look to you. Is it the pure white of your wife before you married here

I agree that the problem of one good color eye and the other heavily filtered is rather unique. But two eyes yellowed, very common especially in the senior category, a growing segment. Calibrators are losing the younger segment of customers. Many are willing to buy the programs and meters and do it themselves. There is less and less custom calibration business out there.

Now I don't need to hire anybody. I am certified 6 ways to Sunday. I have programs and meters up the wazoo.


And I don't give a damn that you hope I never made it so the customer was happy instead of sticking my head up his whatever and telling him to like it. You calibrate it to the spec. You save it. Then you make one by listening to the customer. There are problems no matter what you do. Our system is indeed broken because it essentialkly ignores the viewer. It is based on a standard viewer that doesn't exist. That's a fact.

So we bury our heads in the sand. We calibrate our displays to a standard. You say that;s your job. Too many problems doing anything else. Why should any customer pay to get sopmething wrong. You guys just don't get it because you lose your validity if you pretend to get it. The customers wants to see it correctly. Over and over he wants to see it as the various artists intend him to see it. Not consistently wrong.

things might be different when a display must be the same as other displays but that is not the case in a single display HT. Can you get that.
You say I will make it perfectly consistently wrong for you. I would say no thanks, please go away if I were a customer.You say but its wrong now. I'll majke it right but you will still see it wrong. Thanks but no thanks. I'll save my money.

Tell the customer the truth and you will liose customers. Most will think their eyes are fine and by making the display perfect they will see the correct colors. That's what I thought into the new lens bitch slapped me into reality.
post #55 of 83
Mark I sympathize with both your condition and angst. I too had cataract surgery a couple of years ago, though my other eye has less yellowing than I imagine you now experience.

Much of what I perceive of this discussion reminds me of audio reproduction. However, that has, in some respects, some bigger problems with the way sound is bouncing off all surfaces in the room. In both cases what we see and hear are tempered by both the original source, the reproducing technology, the receiver's seating position, and their room. My typical reaction to hearing a really great sound system is to be underwhelmed. It simply doesn't stand out in any obvious way. It just seems closer to whatever I perceive as "real". I hope to be fooled into believing that there are real musicians in the room with me.

Seems that the whole purpose of video calibration is a method of undoing whatever problems have been arrived at, because the manufacturer has made generic decisions. It's sort of like room treatments in audio to fix how sound waves reach my ears. And sound wave propagation delays are far more problematic than those in the visual range.

Since our video environment and associated equipment varies so much, we really do need to calibrate. Not all of us view in bat caves, have dark walls and ceilings that absorb room reflections, etc. So the basics really do have to be properly controlled (contrast, brightness, hue, saturation, etc.). And since few display devices are even near perfect, we rely on processors that we can use to better dial in more accurate reproduction to some standard. And I'm not even talking about the artifacts that even the best equipment has to deal with (like fast motion of objects).

Even then the way in which the eye/brain operates in the real world does not correspond to the two dimensional image that we get from a display. So, we might use other technologies like DarbeeVision to "recreate" the parallax effect, making what we see a bit more "real". All of this said, it's no Star Trek holodeck simulation that immerses us in even what the director saw, either on set, let alone through a lens. And the eye/brain combo is so much better at coping with the extremes of the real world than current technology can hope to recreate.

I would agree with this forum's title, if the manufacturer could deliver to the public a self regulating device. That means having feedback mechanisms into the display that account for ambient light levels and other room effects, while also constantly evaluating the source material and fixing what we're seeing, on the fly. That reminds me of attempts in the past to do the same in audio (using mikes to pick up room sound problems and fix them, or doing the same with noise cancellation headphones). These are helpful in limited situations, but don't come close to bringing us close to what we're after. Even something as "basic" as a light sensitive "eye" for the display which tells it to adjust for ambient light hitting the screen might be nice (I seem to recall some manufacturers a few decades offering this in some of their products).

Hope you're able in the future to get your other eye corrected, by some means. I've been hampered in audio with a flaky left middle ear having had a stapedectomy about 25 years ago, and recently getting a lovely bit of tinnitus (like a tire's air leak). Though what I hear is less than perfect, it hasn't stopped me from both enjoying my audio system, or trying to improve it over the years.

I guess we take what we can get, and enjoy what we have. Happy to see people striving to use ever changing technology to get us closer to nirvana.
post #56 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The problem is the brain accepts the color change or you do. your brain can't change the color from a yellow white to a white white or a blue white. You just give in and accept it. The yellowing of both eyes is gradual, you may not even noice it unless les I bitch slap you and say, come on you old fart, how does that white look to you. Is it the pure white of your wife before you married here
No, your brain does adapt to it, and that's why you cannot judge things like color temperature by eye without a reference. It is just standing out to you because one eye is yellow and the other is blue. I don't think your eyes will settle on a common point, but it should improve if you give it time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

And I don't give a damn that you hope I never made it so the customer was happy instead of sticking my head up his whatever and telling him to like it. You calibrate it to the spec. You save it. Then you make one by listening to the customer. There are problems no matter what you do. Our system is indeed broken because it essentialkly ignores the viewer. It is based on a standard viewer that doesn't exist. That's a fact.
No, it is based on a standard reference, not a standard viewer. That is a massive difference.

You cannot calibrate a display to a specfic person, and you should not.

Whether a person has a yellow tint to their vision or not makes no difference to calibration, because that yellow tint does not only apply to displays, it applies to everything they see.

The only way to adjust for a yellow tint (or any other) would be corrective lenses - there is nothing you can change on the display to help. And I don't know how you could possibly make corrective lenses unless it is to balance two mis-matched eyes as you have.
Moving away from the reference only serves to make the display look completely wrong compared to the rest of their reality through that yellow-tinted vision.

The only time I can think you might want to deviate from the reference is for someone with color blindness. And even then, it would not be for the sake of accuracy - you would be moving away from being more accurate, to potentially improve color discrimination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Tell the customer the truth and you will liose customers. Most will think their eyes are fine and by making the display perfect they will see the correct colors. That's what I thought into the new lens bitch slapped me into reality.
Your eye has changed, the display has not. Assuming it was calibrated correctly, you have always been seeing the correct colors. It's just that your perception of them was different from someone with perfect vision. But that is irrelevant, because your perception of color on that display was the same as anyone else, relative to all other colors from everything else in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The fact that my eyesight will be somewhat different than others does not diminish the benefits of properly setting up this display or any other that can deliver a quality image. I believe focusing on the color of white alone is a mistake. I find other errors are typically more egregious in many displays.
I did not mean to imply that white balance is all that matters, just that our perception of colors is directly related to the white balance of the display, because our eye adapts to the color of the predominant light source. (typically the display in our case)
post #57 of 83
Thread Starter 
thanks for all the posts. UMR and SJSCHAFF, you guys get my point. and UMR recognize that in many imstances the color calibrator can make things beter by deviating from the standard.

My eyes and brain are summing together and are giving me a balance between the correct clear eye color and tghe yellow eye. but the eyes can not change the color to what the standard through the defined standard viewer would see. If the brain could correct like that, there would be no need to color calibrate for the home viewer.

UMR let me know when you are coming through the DC area. I just don't have the expertise to adjust the colors for the required offsets. Thanks. And to those that are arguing with me, I appreciate the viewpoints and the time you are investing for me in your posts. Thank you all very much.
post #58 of 83
You might want to think about changing the title of the thread.

I think even your conclusion is that it isn't a wast of time or money.

What I'm gathering is that your conclusion is that If your own vision is impaired enough, that you might want to consider calibrating to something other than the standard. That way your home theater is the one place in the world where you see colors how you used to.
post #59 of 83
Thread Starter 
You got it. I have no clue how to change a thread title. Does anybody know how to do it?
post #60 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You got it. I have no clue how to change a thread title. Does anybody know how to do it?

I do. Press the red flag report button on your own post. This will get the attention of the moderators. Ask them to make the change. I moderate another forum and this is the only way it can be done to the best of my knowledge.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › If you are over 65 and have impaired color vision due to cataract yellowing you may want to calibrate to other than the Rec. 709 standard