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Dual Opposed 15" DVC vs. 18" HO

post #1 of 23
2/6/13 at 9:15am
Thread Starter 
So it seems that on the lower end of the frequency spectrum (the last couple octave) it's all about displacement.

With that in mind, the following subs seem to have really good price/performance ratios-
Infinity 1260W- 13mm Xmax, 531 cm^2 sd for $56 (best value!)
Dayton DVC385-88- 15mm Xmax, 829.6 cm^2 sd for $119
Dayton RSS460HO-4 13-18mm Xmax, 1160 cm^2 sd for $240
SI HT18D2 23.5 mm Xmax, ~1150 cm^2 sd for $240 (shipped)

It seems like the smaller drivers are a better deal, but is there more to consider in these cases?

I recently realized that 2 of the Dayton 15" DVC subs can produce more output than a single RSS460HO-4. A dual-opposed cabinet would be nice to reduce vibrations, I noticed the other day that a single 12" sub playing 20 Hz tones was rocking pretty good- and this is a 70 lb sub. Is there any downside to this configuration? It should be more sensative due to more cone area. The Fs is very similar. The RSS460HO-4 has triple shorting rings and a big 3" voicecoil, while the DVC has a small 2" voicecoil. It's also not as pretty. The Dayton Reference most likely has lower distortion.

Another concern of mine is that is appears the "dual 8 ohm coils" are actually 5.6 ohms apiece, so a pair of subs wired to "2 ohms" would actually be more like 1.4 ohms, which is 30% less than expected. Wouldn't want to fry an amp. It does look from the impedance data they provice that the minima is about 3.6 ohms in parallel around 70 Hz..

What do you think? Are looks overrated and it's all about the numbers?
Edited by djkest - 2/6/13 at 11:07am
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post #2 of 23
2/6/13 at 9:25am
You haven't listed a budget. It's all about what you can fit within your budget. The obvious choice would be either of the 18's. biggrin.gif Then down lower to the DVC15 if that's in your budget. It's a very nice driver, I personally like it but it's not as good as either of the 18's.
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post #3 of 23
2/6/13 at 9:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You haven't listed a budget. It's all about what you can fit within your budget. The obvious choice would be either of the 18's. biggrin.gif Then down lower to the DVC15 if that's in your budget. It's a very nice driver, I personally like it but it's not as good as either of the 18's.

Well right now I have $270 for drivers... which would buy 1- RSS460HO-4 or 2-DVC385-88. I could eventually get more money. I have my RSS315HF-4 still in ~60L sealed, and I've been toying with the idea of stacking it on top of whatever I build next if no one buys it. I could run it off one-half of my iNuke 3000 for now.

A single sealed 18 would be 3.75-5 cubic feet, ported 6-7 cubic feet. Dual 15" DVCs would be about 5 cubic feet sealed, hence the comparison. I've just been torn as to how to proceed. I was going to get an SI driver but the recent toasting of two of them has given me pause, plus most of the testing I saw was on pre-production units so I'm not sure how the actual production units are measuring up.
Edited by djkest - 2/6/13 at 9:57am
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post #4 of 23
2/6/13 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Well right now I have $270 for drivers... which would buy 1- RSS460HO-4 or 2-DVC385-88. I could eventually get more money. I have my RSS315HF-4 still in ~60L sealed, and I've been toying with the idea of stacking it on top of whatever I build next if no one buys it. I could run it off one-half of my iNuke 3000 for now.

A single sealed 18 would be 3.75-5 cubic feet, ported 6-7 cubic feet. Dual 15" DVCs would be about 5 cubic feet sealed, hence the comparison. I've just been torn as to how to proceed. I was going to get an SI driver but the recent toasting of two of them has given me pause, plus most of the testing I saw was on pre-production units so I'm not sure how the actual production units are measuring up.

I can't speak for the SI drivers or the DVC 15s but I can speak to the performance of the 18" HO. It all depends on the room size you are working with, ultimate goals, etc. If you think you will be able to add more down the road, I say go for one 18 and buy another when you can. You have already stated you would be ok coming up with more money down the road, so allow me to spend it for you biggrin.gif

I have a bunch of those 18s and have been testing them out in diffrent enclosures, power levels, etc. I think they are an incredible value and am very happy with them thus far. Like I said, if it were me, I woud buy one of them now and anotheer when cash is available
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post #5 of 23
2/6/13 at 10:27am
How large is your room, and is it sealed or open to other rooms? Also do you have any WAF restrictions?
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post #6 of 23
2/6/13 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Good questions. The current room is large and open. It's roughly 12x17 with either a 12' or 17' ceiling- and again open to the rest of the house. However, we hope to finish a room in the basement soon which would be 12 x 16 x 7.5' and mostly sealed off- one door-sized opening- which would be much more pressurization I think.

WAF- she hates subs, she doesn't much like speakers either. She's also "allergic" to bass. I'm hoping that once we move the theater area downstairs I can crank it a little more. I've convinced myself I can basically use UP TO a 24 x 23 x 32" space for this new sub. That allows we ~7 cubic foot net for ported or anything less than that. As far as she's concerned, the smaller and less noticeable, the better.

I have been modeling the RSS460HO-4 in a 6.5 ft net enclosure with 2 - 4" ports tuned to 18 Hz. With a 15 Hz 2nd order HPF, it maxes out at 21 m/s I believe around 20 Hz. I could possibly go with a 6" port, which would bring the velocity down, at the cost of more expensive port flares and more port volume and length. I guess the precision port ends and PVC pipe together would be about $75! At that point maybe a slot port makes sense.
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post #7 of 23
2/6/13 at 11:28am
I recently built a sealed 4.5 cubic ft Dayton HO 18". This thing slams. Not only that, but it really isn't that large and fits nicely in the corner of my room.

I currently have two peaks in my in room frequency response. (According to my ears anyways. No way to measure yet.) A huge peak around 50Hz and a nice boost around 19/20Hz. The low end boost is really nice as I won't have to boost this area too much when I start eq'ing. I'm getting nice, usable output down to 12Hz easy. Really bumping up the gain on my amp to 9/10 (Crown XLS 1000, running bridged) gives me nice output down to 10Hz. Though 10Hz is so far down (possibly 12db down? Guessing here) that at max volume 16Hz and above feels like it's tearing my apartment down.

By the way, the Dayton 18" is beautiful. Just sitting this thing on the ground without an enclosure should cover you in the WAF area.
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post #8 of 23
2/6/13 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

So it seems that on the lower end of the frequency spectrum (the last couple octave) it's all about displacement.

With that in mind, the following subs seem to have really good price/performance ratios-
Infinity 1260W- 13mm Xmax, 531 cm^2 sd for $56 (best value!)
Dayton DVC385-88- 15mm Xmax, 829.6 cm^2 sd for $119
Dayton RSS460HO-4 13-18mm Xmax, 1160 cm^2 sd for $240
SI HT18D2 23.5 mm Xmax, ~1150 cm^2 sd for $240 (shipped)

It seems like the smaller drivers are a better deal, but is there more to consider in these cases?

I recently realized that 2 of the Dayton 15" DVC subs can produce more output than a single RSS460HO-4. A dual-opposed cabinet would be nice to reduce vibrations, I noticed the other day that a single 12" sub playing 20 Hz tones was rocking pretty good- and this is a 70 lb sub. Is there any downside to this configuration? It should be more sensative due to more cone area. The Fs is very similar. The RSS460HO-4 has triple shorting rings and a big 3" voicecoil, while the DVC has a small 2" voicecoil. It's also not as pretty. The Dayton Reference most likely has lower distortion.

Another concern of mine is that is appears the "dual 8 ohm coils" are actually 5.6 ohms apiece, so a pair of subs wired to "2 ohms" would actually be more like 1.4 ohms, which is 30% less than expected. Wouldn't want to fry an amp. It does look from the impedance data they provice that the minima is about 3.6 ohms in parallel around 70 Hz..

What do you think? Are looks overrated and it's all about the numbers?

The dc resistance of the coil is generally lower than the nominal impedance rating. 3.6 ohms at 70hz is still just a 4 ohm nominal. I have 2 385's running as a 2 ohm load on one channel of my nu3k and it's been fine so far.

With the nu3k that you already have you can, for comparison sake, either run 8 1262's in about 5cu ft per pair or 4 385's in about 3.5 cut each sealed and get about the same output down low. So the take away from that is that the 15's have better SPL/WAF.

The 1262's have a bumped back plate so they may be a bit safer or more forgiving of over excursion if you decide to build low tuned ported. I have a pair of 1262's but I haven't got around to testing mine yet. I have tested the 385's and they seem to bottom out about 5mm past xmax.

I really think the nu3k is under powered for either of the 18's unless you want to run the SI d4 or just like having more travel than you can use. That's my opinion though.
Edited by nograveconcern - 2/6/13 at 11:39am
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post #9 of 23
2/6/13 at 11:58am
21m/s port velocity is fine, it will be reached only at max output and if it actually causes the port shuffling, it will likely be masked by the legitimate output. I was advised by more than one knowledgable poster here that port resonance frequency is more important priority. The subs mtg90 is building for me model to go over 30 m/s around 13Hz with 1kW signal. FWIW.

Vented subs are less flexible in terms of positioning. Have you considered two 15" sealed boxes, with at least one near field, downfiring end table type of set up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Good questions. The current room is large and open. It's roughly 12x17 with either a 12' or 17' ceiling- and again open to the rest of the house. However, we hope to finish a room in the basement soon which would be 12 x 16 x 7.5' and mostly sealed off- one door-sized opening- which would be much more pressurization I think.

WAF- she hates subs, she doesn't much like speakers either. She's also "allergic" to bass. I'm hoping that once we move the theater area downstairs I can crank it a little more. I've convinced myself I can basically use UP TO a 24 x 23 x 32" space for this new sub. That allows we ~7 cubic foot net for ported or anything less than that. As far as she's concerned, the smaller and less noticeable, the better.

I have been modeling the RSS460HO-4 in a 6.5 ft net enclosure with 2 - 4" ports tuned to 18 Hz. With a 15 Hz 2nd order HPF, it maxes out at 21 m/s I believe around 20 Hz. I could possibly go with a 6" port, which would bring the velocity down, at the cost of more expensive port flares and more port volume and length. I guess the precision port ends and PVC pipe together would be about $75! At that point maybe a slot port makes sense.
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post #10 of 23
2/6/13 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Good questions. The current room is large and open. It's roughly 12x17 with either a 12' or 17' ceiling- and again open to the rest of the house. However, we hope to finish a room in the basement soon which would be 12 x 16 x 7.5' and mostly sealed off- one door-sized opening- which would be much more pressurization I think.

WAF- she hates subs, she doesn't much like speakers either. She's also "allergic" to bass. I'm hoping that once we move the theater area downstairs I can crank it a little more. I've convinced myself I can basically use UP TO a 24 x 23 x 32" space for this new sub. That allows we ~7 cubic foot net for ported or anything less than that. As far as she's concerned, the smaller and less noticeable, the better.

I have been modeling the RSS460HO-4 in a 6.5 ft net enclosure with 2 - 4" ports tuned to 18 Hz. With a 15 Hz 2nd order HPF, it maxes out at 21 m/s I believe around 20 Hz. I could possibly go with a 6" port, which would bring the velocity down, at the cost of more expensive port flares and more port volume and length. I guess the precision port ends and PVC pipe together would be about $75! At that point maybe a slot port makes sense.

Unless you can go with multiple smaller sealed subs (which will cost more money) I would say go with the ported 18" in the biggest box you can. She will eventually get used to the size, and maybe you can sneak another one in the room smile.gif

I really wanted to go ported with my subs, but would have been restricted to one to two 5-6 cu ft ported boxes vs four smaller 3.5-4.0 sealed boxes. WAF was still a little bit of a battle but she has not said anything since the first day and we watch movies and TV downstairs nearly every night.

My advice is to sweeten the deal with a new purse or some new shoes smile.gif
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post #11 of 23
2/7/13 at 8:08am
Thread Starter 
Well, so yesterday I played with my existing 12" HF subwoofer. With the iNuke dialed in properly, I could feed it about 400 watts no problem, and I was getting 3-4 level lights. At this level with a single sealed 12" sub, I could hear the bass in every room in the house. Nearfield I was feeling that thumping feeling in my chest. So I decided that a single sealed 18" would probably be about as loud as could be tolerated by the family members for now. But I'm still be second-guessing myself. I think my existing sub enclosure is going to need a bit of an overhaul to handle this newfound power. smile.gif

Test tracks:
Norah Jones- Cold Cold Heart
Deadmau5- Ghosts n Stuff and FML
Daft Punk- Disc Wars (Tron Legacy Soundtrack)
Linkin Park -1stp Klsr
Hedegaard- Scary Christmas

Then again, simulations say that 2x 15" RSS390HO-4s or 2x SI HT15D2s would also work (for increasing costs) and provide a little more oomph than a single 18, although don't offer much over the Dayton DVC385-88. 180 and 150 L, respectively.
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post #12 of 23
2/7/13 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Well, so yesterday I played with my existing 12" HF subwoofer. With the iNuke dialed in properly, I could feed it about 400 watts no problem, and I was getting 3-4 level lights. At this level with a single sealed 12" sub, I could hear the bass in every room in the house. Nearfield I was feeling that thumping feeling in my chest. So I decided that a single sealed 18" would probably be about as loud as could be tolerated by the family members for now. But I'm still be second-guessing myself. I think my existing sub enclosure is going to need a bit of an overhaul to handle this newfound power. smile.gif

Test tracks:
Norah Jones- Cold Cold Heart
Deadmau5- Ghosts n Stuff and FML
Daft Punk- Disc Wars (Tron Legacy Soundtrack)
Linkin Park -1stp Klsr
Hedegaard- Scary Christmas

Then again, simulations say that 2x 15" RSS390HO-4s or 2x SI HT15D2s would also work (for increasing costs) and provide a little more oomph than a single 18, although don't offer much over the Dayton DVC385-88. 180 and 150 L, respectively.

If a single 18 worth of output is what you are after you would be better off breaking it up into 2 15's or 4 12's for a more even in room response.

I agree that the HO 15 offers little in output over the 385. The difference is in component quality. But, the SI 15 is a good bit beefier.
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post #13 of 23
2/7/13 at 9:07am
Dude go with 3 or 4 of the Dayton DVC385's, or as many as you can afford, all in separate enclosures in order to maximize the balance of the rooms acoustical model responce. You can always add more DVC385's at a quicker rate than adding more of the HO18's due to price differences
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post #14 of 23
2/7/13 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Dude go with 3 or 4 of the Dayton DVC385's, or as many as you can afford, all in separate enclosures in order to maximize the balance of the rooms acoustical model responce. You can always add more DVC385's at a quicker rate than adding more of the HO18's due to price differences

That is what I ended up doing (4 sealed DVC's) and the bass response in my big room is so much smoother now and that is just with minimal EQ (still waiting on my Minidsp mic). I can't imagine you would need more bass than this based on your description above. I saw a 5-8db gain from 15-80hz vs my Hsu VTF-15H and that was without corner loading (the VTF-15H was corner loaded) or the drivers really broken in. I swear they seem to sound better with age smile.gif
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post #15 of 23
2/11/13 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
Well, I ended up purchasing the RSS460HO-4, speakon connectors, Penn-elcom rubber feet, screws, etc on Saturday; no port flares. Plans are a well-braced 4.0 cubic foot sealed enclosure with large 3/4" roundovers on the front baffle. Mostly MDF but I have some 11-ply plywood I want to use as well. I'm shooting for an enclosure that weighs about 100 lbs + the 40 lb subwoofer driver.

For now, I'll have the 12" HF stacked on top of the 18" HO as sort of a "bass tower" that will be 46" high; or I could seperate them 10' apart. Each one will be run off 1/2 of the iNuke 3000, both crossed 3rd order butterworth at 80 Hz, the 12" has a 2nd order butterworth HPF at 20 Hz. If I decide I don't have quite enough bass, I could build ported enclosures for both of them. And eventually I'd like to get more subs. I was thinking about another 12" and putting both in a long skinny wedge shaped sub behind the couch. I'll probably make a thread when I start making meaningful progress- I already cut most of the pieces yesterday on the tablesaw.
Edited by djkest - 2/11/13 at 8:17am
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post #16 of 23
2/11/13 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Well, I ended up purchasing the RSS460HO-4, speakon connectors, Penn-elcom rubber feet, screws, etc on Saturday; no port flares. Plans are a well-braced 4.0 cubic foot sealed enclosure with large 3/4" roundovers on the front baffle. Mostly MDF but I have some 11-ply plywood I want to use as well. I'm shooting for an enclosure that weighs about 100 lbs + the 40 lb speaker.

For now, I'll have the 12" HF stacked on top of the 18" HO as sort of a "bass tower" that will be 46" high; or I could seperate them 10' apart. Each one will be run off 1/2 of the iNuke 3000, both crossed 3rd order butterworth at 80 Hz, the 12" has a 2nd order butterworth HPF at 20 Hz. If I decide I don't have quite enough bass, I could build ported enclosures for both of them. And eventually I'd like to get more subs. I was thinking about another 12" and putting both in a long skinny wedge shaped sub behind the couch. I'll probably make a thread when I start making meaningful progress- I already cut most of the pieces yesterday on the tablesaw.


You have confused me. What is a 12" HF driver? I was not aware of any 12" drivers that could be used as high frequeny drivers? Also, if you have already purchased the HO18's then what are you talking about doing with the 12" drivers? I would not recommend putting your subs under the mains unless you have more than 3 subs as the optimal way to place subs is highly individual and should involve a "sub crawl" in order to see where the best place for them to go is based on frequency responce and overall coverage, both of which will be highly limited if you place them under you mains, which I highly doubt would just happen to be the optimal place for them.
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post #17 of 23
2/11/13 at 8:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

You have confused me. What is a 12" HF driver? I was not aware of any 12" drivers that could be used as high frequeny drivers? Also, if you have already purchased the HO18's then what are you talking about doing with the 12" drivers? I would not recommend putting your subs under the mains unless you have more than 3 subs as the optimal way to place subs is highly individual and should involve a "sub crawl" in order to see where the best place for them to go is based on frequency responce and overall coverage, both of which will be highly limited if you place them under you mains, which I highly doubt would just happen to be the optimal place for them.

Dayton RSS315HF-4 is a 12" Dayton Reference 4-ohm subwoofer with an Fs of 25 and 14 mm Xmax; roughly 3 cubic feet of VAS. It was the first DIY sub I made and what this new one is supposed to replace. But now that I'll have 2 subs and an amp that can drive them both, I figured I would use both, at least until I purchase another 18" subwoofer. It's not ideal but it won't hurt either.

The 18" is an RSS460HO-4, the nomenclature contains the product line (RSS = Reference series subwoofer) diameter in mm, the type (HO = high output HF = high fidelity), and the rated impedance.
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post #18 of 23
2/11/13 at 8:46am
I built my enclosure out of 11 ply birch, and it weighs just under 45 lbs. I didn't want to use MDF because of the added weight. The driver itself weighs closer to 45lbs, so total weight of completed sub is 90lbs. It will shake in it's place pretty good, but it's only noticeable if I'm really close to it. (I could put a magazine on top and it would shake it off, but it wouldn't shake a hardcover textbook off)

I think your 12" sub idea may be futile. You may notice some added output between 30-80Hz running the 12" with the 18", but you'll be limited to the 18" for anything below 20Hz. The response in your room may seem alot more uneven this way, and may give the illusion that you are lacking in the ULF department.

Also, I'm not sure what spl levels you are currently used to, but the single 18" with 900w should be more than enough for you. (If you're used to commercial or ID subs up to a point.)
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post #19 of 23
2/12/13 at 5:12am
So why are you going with the HF12 as opposed to the DVC385 15" driver?
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post #20 of 23
2/12/13 at 5:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

So why are you going with the HF12 as opposed to the DVC385 15" driver?

I believe he already had the HF12 in an enclosure from a previous build. He is planning to build a new 18" HO and wants to simply make use of the new sub as well as his old one.
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post #21 of 23
2/12/13 at 5:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I believe he already had the HF12 in an enclosure from a previous build. He is planning to build a new 18" HO and wants to simply make use of the new sub as well as his old one.

Oh, ok, sorry for the confusion, I should have re-read the first part of the thread. LoL!
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post #22 of 23
2/12/13 at 6:58am
Thread Starter 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1372353/rss315hf-4-12-the-raven

All the advice I got previously was right, but I didn't quite listen. The amp wasn't well matched to the sub and enclosure, mainly due to the massive bass boost. I would have been better off with a ported enclosure tuned near the boost frequency. I could still make a ported enclosure for it, if I wanted.
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post #23 of 23
2/12/13 at 8:11am
Just looked through that thread. That was a pretty nice build you had. Awesome finish and build quality I think. If only the 12" HF could handle more power your other design would've done fine with the bass boost.

My 18" HO gives me nearly twice the spl levels at 20Hz as my Bic F12 gave me at 45Hz. And this is with the Bic at max gain and volume (before terrible distortion) and my 18" at about 1/4 gain/volume. 45Hz on the F12 was the loudest frequency it could reproduce in my room.

It's impressive having so much headroom(for my needs) and literally no noticeable distortion.
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