IOGEAR 3D complete/MONOPRICE/3D-BEE which one should I buy money is no object

I've had PC 2D to 3D converters and they were all hard to watch. I had the 3D BEE for several days and found it hard to watch. I finally got a Sony 590 bluray player with builtin 2D-3D converter and I am totally satisfied with that. No converter will create true 3D all the time and some like the 3D BEE actually create pseudo 3D and to me it's irritating if you know what the 3D depth should be. The Sony 590 creates a window with some space for static images and for pans and moving images it does a very good job of creating great looking 3D. That's about the best you can get. It is very subjective, and I suggest you buy whatever through Amazon so you can return what you don't like. There just isn't a good answer until you see it for yourself, and opinions are like you know what--and everyone has one, but here this has been discussed so much on different threads, you probably won't get much response.

I've heard lots of good things abot the LG 2D-3D and I generally think mine is fine for a fun toy but if it's really better than the other options that's pretty sad for those devices...

I tend not to put too much behind marketing mumbo jumbo like that but I do have to say that I have noticed generally good performance in few of the scene types they mention specifically.

I have 5 devices that do 2D to 3D conversion: LG LM7600 passive display, Samsung D7000 plasma, Epson 6010 projector, Sony 590 Blu-ray player and the 3D-Bee. For me, the 3D-Bee is at the top. The LG is a close second for some types of material, but especially for documentary/travel type footage, and football, the Bee is better. The LG tends to be more fooled by color in landscapes than the Bee. It brings reds to the foreground more than it should - disturbingly so. Both the Bee and the LG tend to bring brighter objects forward, often poorly, but the Bee maintains better perspective overall. Some of the Bee conversions look better to me than those same distance shots taken with my 3D camcorder. That's a bold statement, and I don't make it lightly. It shocked the hell out of me. All of them get complex shots wrong a lot, and the closer the objects the more likely the conversion is to falter. The Bee is good, though, in that it can be adjusted manually for the material you're watching.

And the Bee creates zero lag.

It's easy. I just put one word after the other.

I have both, so I can compare the Bee and the LG directly. My opinion is no more valid than yours, of course, but I've tried them with many types of program material. I even ran 2D versions of my own original 3D footage through both, and IMO the Bee clearly outperformed the LG. The Bee has a "Pop-out" mode, but I seldom use it, since I find pop-out generally less satisfying. The Bee can be adjusted manually, and it performs better in low light scenes where the LG struggles to create 3D. I use the Bee on my Samsung plasma. The LG is good enough that I don't feel the desire to add one to it, but I prefer the Bee. I watch 2D to 3D conversion in spurts, because all of these devices get it wrong often enough not to want to watch that frequently. I go for a month or two sometimes before getting the urge. I create my own Blu-ray 3D discs, so I spend a lot more time working on those than I do watching conversions.

There's no substitute for native 3D. 2D to 3D conversion will always come up a distant (very distant) second. I'd never choose a converter over the real thing. The Optoma is one of those tiny DLPs, right, with an output of ~500 lumens? At any rate, the only first hand experience I've with 3D DLP is a Mits rear projection display. It was quite impressive, due to a total lack of ghosting.

It's bigger.

Seriously, I like big screen 3D. I think it adds a lot to the experience. DLPs don't ghost, at least that's what the vast majority of people report. Although I absolutely shouldn't, I'm still thinking about investing in a DLP projector, like the BenQ W7000, for 3D-only viewing.

A good projector will perform 3D with zero ghosting when the 3D is done right, as it is in most high budget movies.

Sad to admit, my own low budget home movies will suffer ghosting often on the projector that does not show up on the Vizio 32" panel. I have to work quite hard at eliminating those in my own productions. And as a reminder- I use a Sony VPL-VW90ES which is considered to be about as good as it gets in 2K 3D projectors. While it's black level isn't quite as black as the top end JVC DILA, the Sony has a much brighter 3D picture overall. I have only done a comparison of my Sony with the top end JVC RS-65. I believe Joe has the 45 which is their low end model that he complains of ghosting. The JVC 65 had no ghosting either.
I also have a copy of Joe's production of the Botanical Gardens and it is ghost free too but Joe is ultra conservative in pushing the 3D envelope and takes considerable care in his shots. Most of the time I'm shooting run and gun and event stuff in extreme conditions so that lack of setup is likely the reason I have so many sub quality images with respect to parallax issues.

This is just my opinion based on viewing both projector and LCD/LED panels but if the 3D movie is reasonable in design an LCD panel in passive is quite good at making the image come together where the projected image is not forgiving at all. I think most high end movies are careful not to push the envelope on depth extremes, In other words, if the director plans a shot that is extreme popout there will be very little content behind the screen plane at the same time and if there is it will be defocused considerably to make sure the viewer is not pulled in two directions at the same time. I have spent quite a bit of time making these observations in hopes of reducing ghosting issues on my projector.

As far as 3D effect is concerned, this is primarily a function of the movie but my projector has a 3D depth control that can either squeeze 3D into a smaller distance or spread it apart. The default is 0 on a plus / minus slider. I keep it at zero. The amount of distance from the screen is usually a comfortable 50% of viewing distance on popout but in extreme effect it will extend right up to your eyes and if done right have no diverging images. The cool thing with a projected image is you can fill your room if the screen area is big enough to fill one wall. Something like my bubbles video takes place in the center of my room. It's like I am there again.

Joe I had a BenQ 2D projector and the power supply burned up after 3500 hours. I was not very happy when I saw what it cost to repair!

Hey, Don.

I had a BenQ for a few days, but it went back to AVS in trade for a Sharp XV-Z20000, which I loved and used for several years. I just gave it to a niece a few months ago. The BenQ W7000 also seems to be hit or miss when it comes to quality, so it may take a while to get a good one without issues.

All the JVC projectors ghost. They use basically the same panels in all of them. I owned the RS40 and RS45. The only projector technology that can be completely ghost free is DLP. There's a big comparison thread here on AVS about Sony, Epson, JVC, BenQ, Panasonic, Acer and a couple of other projectors. It explores their 3D performance in detail. The newer ones (X55, 65, 35, RS48, 4810) match more closely the first gen JVCs' 3D performance, which ironically was better than the second generation (RS45, etc.). They really screwed up last year, releasing projectors whose ghosting performance was abysmal. I loved the JVC's contrast, but the ghosting led me to trade my RS45 to another AVSer for his Epson 6010 last year. Except for DLP, it's the best projector I've seen in terms of ghosting.

My LG passive display is better than any projector I've owned for ghosting, but is still behind the DLPs. It's contrast is also weak compared to the projectors, although I still prefer it to the Samsung plasma for most 3D films, because of the brightness and how easy passive is on the eyes.

Joe- I rarely see ghosting on my Sony. Only on my own productions, yours, and a couple commercial BluRay's, like Magic Gardens and a couple Vudu documentaries. Last night I watched Lord of the Dance which was an excellent quality production and zero ghosting.

As for DLP, In it's day I had what was considered the best DLP image on the market, The Dwin TV3. It was expensive and the image was very good for it's day. But, I am one who sees the rainbow artifacts on DLP and find it annoying. I can prevent seeing them by avoiding any eye movement when bright lines are in the image but that is silly to have to do that to avoid being annoyed by rainbow flashes. I won't buy another dlp, ever!

I don't understand how the media can be a factor in ghosting... isn't ghosting entirely controlled by the display and nothing to do with the media?

To be clear when I say ghosting I mean crosstalk...

I could see the media being responsible for unresolvable 3D images causing you to always see two of something and never being able to bring them together for 1 3D object, but as far as crosstalk (where one eye sees what only the other eye should have) isn't that entirely a product of how well the display times and blocks each eyes image and nothing to do with the media?

Ghosting is caused by the display, not the content. On DLPs with properly timed glasses, you won't see ghosting on ANY content. I've created ghosting "torture test" discs in the past. One eye was a regular image and the other eye was completely black. On a DLP, the eye that's supposed to be black looks black. On all other projector display technologies (as well as LCD and plasma flat panels), you see ghosting. You can minimize ghosting by making sure that high contrast and/or widely divergent left/right images don't happen that often, but even then some displays ghost so badly that you'll notice the crosstalk. LCD and LCoS are too slow to prevent it from happening. Even plasma flat panels, which are faster, can't stop it altogether. DLP mirrors switch fast enough to stop it. If a DLP ghosts, it's almost certainly a problem with the glasses. Users report pretty consistently that 3D also reduces or eliminates the visibility of rainbow effect in DLP projectors. I'm close to trying a BenQ W7000 DLP projector as a 3D only machine.

I've owned 5 DLP projectors over the years, because I'm fairly tolerant of rainbows, but I can still see them, especially if I haven't watched a DLP display for a while. After a couple of days of regular use, my eyes/brain adjust to RBE and it doesn't bother me. I even see a bit of RBE in plasma displays (thought it's typically in the form of "yellow" separation). That said, I still prefer the completely rainbow free look of LCoS or LCD. It's just that these technologies are too slow at switching frames to eliminate ghosting completely.

Shame there can't be a perfect solution...

I also tend to get used to rainbows over time... with my SP4805 it was horrible for the first week or so and then after a while I coul donly ee the rainbows if I rapidly turned my head.

With my HD72 it was notably better and I rarely saw rainbows.

That said I am very happy with the overall amount of cross talk from my LG passive set however even that is far from crosstalk free... it would be really nice to have absolutely no crosstalk anymore.

Yep, the LG is the most ghost free 3D I've owned, but as you say, even it is not perfect. That's why I might just break down and get the BenQ W7000. It's the owner reports that have me a little spooked about it - noisy, quirky. If I can sell a few items that are gathering dust right now and get close to paying for it, I'll probably make the leap.

You may be right on the terminology. I use the term 3D "Ghost" to be any image I see on the screen that is subdued and a duplicate of the proper image and the ghost image is clear or transparent. Normally it shows as an outline to the main image. So, the next question is what can cause this to show up? If I can make it disappear by viewing and adjusting something on the TV, then it may be caused by the TV, not the source media. However, If I see a double image and can manipulate an adjustment in the camera or in post such as the horizontal disparity control, then this ghost is caused by the media. I respect that many have concluded that ghosts are ONLY caused by bad monitors or poorly calibrated good monitors.

Not long ago I was editing some extreme wide stereo base video to make a scene where the foreground was not far in front of me in my viewing room but the scene extended far back behind the screen plane to a mountain range against a deep blue sky. The mountain edge with blue sky showed a white ghost appearing outline in the blue sky. I called this double image a ghost. I adjusted the horizontal in the stereographic effect so that this white outline just disappeared into the main image. Now the extreme depth was viewable without any "ghosting" in the sky. The depth range was slightly reduced but still preserved the effect I was after. Was this not a ghost? Or. was it just a divergence in the extreme positive parallax that I could not tolerate?

Your understanding of crosstalk is the same as mine and we agree on what causes it. So, IMO, my Sony projector is completely free of crosstalk as long as I use the Sony glasses with their special filters. Nearly all my commercial 3D movies have no crosstalk nor ghosts.
Edited by Don Landis - 2/13/13 at 1:08pm

Technically, ghosting is crosstalk, but not all crosstalk has to result in ghosting. Ghosting refers to the crosstalk that is perceptible (can be seen). Crosstalk may be so low as to be invisible to the naked eye but still measurable by instruments that are sensitive enough.

Here's a ghosting torture test that I created in Vegas Pro. You may be shocked to see how much ghosting your display exhibits. My LG passive display is the best I own in terms of ghosting, but it flunks this test, as do all my other displays. I'll run it again when I get the BenQ W7000 DLP (IF I get the BenQ W7000 ).

This is not a "fair" or "real world" test. The only displays that can ace this test are DLPs. I'm not aware of anything else that can do it except for HMDs (head mounted displays), which by their very nature isolate the left/right views completely, and are therefore 100% crosstalk free. They're like the old ViewMasters we all know about from when we were kids. Although it's technically possible to "bake" ghosting into S3D images, it's just not done. Take your worst examples of what you believe to be ghosting "caused" by content and watch it on a DLP. Unless it's caused by bad glasses timing, you won't see it. Or, if you have access to one of the Sony HMDs, try it there. You won't see it. Or split the stereo image of my torture test disc with something like MVCtoAVI. You'll find that one side of the "stereo" image is completely black. There is no ghosting baked into it.

Content does not cause ghosting; it reveals your display's inability to prevent it. Wide divergence of objects within the stereo frame, especially if they're high contrast, are especially good at revealing your display's weakness in this regard, but that doesn't mean the content is "responsible" for the ghosting. It does mean that those of us who create 3D have to be aware of the problem and try to avoid it. I think that was probably one of the big reasons that James Cameron shot Avatar the way he did. He was using a first gen Panasonic 50" 3D plasma display to edit, and he had to be keenly aware of ghosting. I think that's why we see so much soft focus backgrounds and misty blue scenes, which tend to hide ghosting. It's also why he was so "conservative" with the depth. It also helped to hide crosstalk. Avatar is one of the worst titles you can use to try to spot crosstalk in commercial 3D. He also varies the convergence point in almost every shot (creating massive numbers of edge violations along the way, which I'm OK with), but making for some very easy 3D viewing that almost never stresses the viewer due to widely divergent objects. My LG passive display is great for watching 3D titles. I take the glasses off and watch for how the director and editor chose to deal with such issues.

What you describe does sound like crosstalk and crosstalk can be resolved by tweaking the media in exactly the method you describe... but it change the images.

The way you correct it in media is to change the parallax/convergence so that the offending items have no/less parallax seperation.

I would think to truly elminate it it would have to be no seperation.

The reason this works is that with no parallax seperation, both eyes are seeing the object at the same spot on the screen, thus no crosstalk is visible becuase even if one eye sees 100% of what the other eye sees they should be basically the same thing.

This is why some people reported fixing crosstalk on active TVs by tweaking the viewing position setting or 3D position. What this does is apply an offset to the left and right eyes effectively increasing and decreasing depth/pop out. In the process this moves certain image elements closer to the same position on screen for obth eyes.

The problem with video is this works for certain parallax seperation only. In the next scene something with different depth queues would now get crosstalk.

On a still image this isn't a problem especially since you are correcting in the image and not on the display.

The problem though as mentioned is this directly effects the depth becuase you are changing parallax seperation.

We're a little out there for this thread, so apologies. This post continues that trend, so you have been warned.

Adjusting convergence in post to eliminate the worst of the ghosting often introduces ghosting in other parts of the image. Cameron does this for almost every shot. It's my understanding that the 3D rigs made by his company for rental can adjust both convergence and parallax dynamically. This is at odds with the shooting philosophies of many stereographers, many of whom like to shoot "parallel" and adjust as needed in post. Cameron's shooting methods are guaranteed to introduce edge violations, which is also at serious odds with traditional 3D shooters. Besides guaranteeing edge violations, though, dynamic convergence also makes it much more likely that you won't create severe ghosting. It's no guarantee, but it trims down the odds dramatically. My JVC TD1 adjusts parallax dynamically unless I set it manually. Generally speaking, I like how it handles this adjustment. Most edge violations don't bother me one little bit. The exception, as Cameron makes clear in his "new rules" for 3D shooting, is when you have an object coming directly out of the screen toward the viewer. For me, that's most often in the form of edge violations for macro shots. Those bother me, and I try to eliminate them. If I can't do that to my satisfaction, I discard the shots.