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Calibrating more then 2 subs? - Page 2

post #31 of 44
The whole concept of this miniDSP is totally new to me and so reading through their website last week, I found the learning curve to be somewhat steep but eventually I 'think' I began to understand the power of these little devices and just how flexible they can be. In short I believe the 2X4 miniDSP will satisfy my needs for 4 outputs and with the advanced 4-way plug-in it will provide the 4 separate EQ, phasing/delay and gains I need for my plans... also provides separate HPFs and LPFs for each output prior to the EQs, so I'm thinking this is going to work. To answer your question: I've gone with a 2X4 unbalanced "in a box" RevB miniDSP and the 4-way Advanced plug-in for its programming.
Edited by monomer - 2/10/13 at 9:17am
post #32 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

To answer your question: I've gone with a 2X4 unbalanced RevB and the 4-way advanced plug-in.

Thanks! I've contacted the MiniDSP, Inc. DevTeam but have yet to get an answer as to which of their products will best serve our needs.
post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Exactly the reason I like having detented, low profile gain knobs on our subs. wink.gif

Do note if your subs are identical and of the same generation, you should be very close by simply matching the dial position. If purchased at different times, it's good to check that the overall gain of the amplifier is the same for both. I've run into this on different age Aerial SW-12s and a few others as well. Once matched and set, a piece of painter's tape over the dial can help keep things in place if needed.

I have found the dial position on the Submersive amps to have the same output when purchasing in pairs or quads, my final settings with a 68-70 db range on all. Not much adusting after that to hit the requred 75 db for Audyssey in the sub setup menu.
post #34 of 44
I was not looking for a debate on level matching or gain matching subwoofers. I was just pointing out the fact that good results can be obtained from either method. Room software is a must for truely objective measurements and sub EQ'ing. I also agree that MCACC does not EQ the sub but, with phase adjustment and standing wave control, it dose a pretty good job of total system intergration. In the final analysis listening to the system, the technical data usually reinforces our conclusion on what we are hearing in the room. One can also move around the room and listen to the bass response and make a judement on how smooth the response is in the room without expensive equipment. Sometimes we can get lost in graphs and techincal data a forget we have our own hearing and perception to relie on,

I am sure that Craig, Mark and many others can walk into a room and tell if the system is setup correctly without measuring equipments.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 2/9/13 at 10:49pm
post #35 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Room software is a must for truely objective measurements and sub EQ'ing.

---snip---

Quote:
I am sure that Craig, Mark and many others can walk into a room and tell if the system is setup correctly without measuring equipments.


And it's a shame that they won't come to our place and share what they have to share. So until the day, where someone such as who you mention, willingly comes to our place and relieves us of our sonic duties, we'll have to do it the old fashion way you suggest, via the use of room analyzing programs and the tweaking of parametric settings. tongue.gif

(And will somebody write a book on how a Home Theater nut can deal with the inconsolable vagaries of the oft mentioned WAF. tongue.gif )

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/10/13 at 6:43am
post #36 of 44
A couple of general questions, the first question, will two subs on 5m cables be impacted by a third sub on a 10m cable?

The second question, and if all things are reasonably equal in performance, how much of an impact will three asymmetrically placed subs, have on a room's acoustics, if the subs are from three different ID vendors?

My prejudicial answer is, there's no problem as the cable difference is too small to be noticeable and in the case of the second question, my prejudice is, all things being equal, assuming equal quality and ability, there shouldn't be any synergistic conflict.

What say you guys?

(As to the why of the questions, I have a serious WAF to deal with)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/10/13 at 6:42am
post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post


I am sure that Craig, Mark and many others can walk into a room and tell if the system is setup correctly without measuring equipments.
They should be the last to suggest that. Laymen tend to believe the adage "I know what I'm hearing". Engineers know that one of the least accurate audio tools at our disposal are one's ears. An engineer could walk into a room and spot obvious placement and room treatment issues, but he'll always rely on measuring tools to accurately chart in-room response.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 2/10/13 at 6:40am
post #38 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

They should be the last to suggest that. Laymen tend to believe the adage "I know what I'm hearing". Engineers know that one of the least accurate audio tools at our disposal are one's ears. An engineer could walk into a room and spot obvious placement and room treatment issues, but he'll always rely on measuring tools to accurately chart in-room response.
I certainly can't identify problems with a system using my ears alone, especially if I've never heard the content being played before. However, If I can listen to content that I am intimately familiar with, I can often identify problems just by listening. For example, I use Fourplay's Between the Sheets,for system evaluation. This is an older recording, but it is an excellent recording of the bass and percussion. I've listened to it on many, many different systems. I know what it's *supposed* to sound like. When I hear it on a system with poor subwoofer integration, it is immediately apparent, either because some notes are missing, (nulls) or some notes are exaggerated, (peaks.) I can't identify the specific problems by frequency, but I can definitely tell that there are problems. I have no doubt you can do this too. Of course, then measurements will tell the story.

I recently heard a very expensive, "high end" system, (well over $100K in speakers and electronics.) I listened to about 2 minutes of "Chant" from the above mentioned disc and I could immediately tell there were problems with subwoofer integration. Here is the measurement:



I have NO DOUBT you too could identify the fact that this system needed some help just by listening to it with familiar content, just like I could.

Craig
post #39 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I recently heard a very expensive, "high end" system, (well over $100K in speakers and electronics.) I listened to about 2 minutes of "Chant" from the above mentioned disc and I could immediately tell there were problems with subwoofer integration.

I have NO DOUBT you too could identify the fact that this system needed some help just by listening to it with familiar content, just like I could.
One can often tell when something's wrong just by listening. It's identifying exactly what's wrong and then fixing it that requires more than just ears.
post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

One can often tell when something's wrong just by listening. It's identifying exactly what's wrong and then fixing it that requires more than just ears.

Yeah, that's what I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I can't identify the specific problems by frequency, but I can definitely tell that there are problems. I have no doubt you can do this too. Of course, then measurements will tell the story.
post #41 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks! I've contacted the MiniDSP, Inc. DevTeam but have yet to get an answer as to which of their products will best serve our needs.
I think the idea is that you select a miniDSP model that will fit your specific situation according to the number of inputs and outputs you require... THEN select a plug-in that can be configured to do what you need to have it do. Its this flexibility in hardware and programming that makes these devices applicable to such a wide range of functions. What I'm saying is, I don't think they will be able to recommend one single specific miniDSP and plug-in combo that will meet every situation.


Using my meager knowledge of these devices/systems I will try to simplify the process of selection for you:

1)What do you want to accomplish? First you must have a clear idea of what exactly it is you're intending to do and be able to visualize the steps you are going to take to do it (paying attention to the order in which you are planning to do them)

2)Select the Hardware. Decide on how many inputs and how many outputs this is going to require. Now you should be able to select the appropriate basic miniDSP module... also if you have Pro equipment then select a 'balance' module otherwise 'unbalanced' should do. Select it as a "kit" if you are going to physically house this device (usually within a larger enclosure... maybe inside a speaker cabinet? etc) otherwise you'll want to choose it as an "in a box" model. Don't worry about Rev A or B as these can be changed by an internal jumper later if necessary... this just switches the maximum input level (sensitivity) from .9Vrms to 2.0Vrms.

3)Finally select a plug-in. This is the programming that allows you to access the power of the circuitry of the DSP. If you selected a 2X4 miniDSP module (which I think will suffice for most situations involving multiple subwoofers... 4 or less that is) then either the 2.1-way or the 3/4-way plug-in should be your only choices for sub(s) control. The 2.1 plug-in should work in most instances where you'll need to use two separate inputs (like involving a left and a right channel) in conjunction with your sub(s)... having 2 outputs dedicated to each (left and right channels) while the other 2 outputs feed a sub or two. The 3/4-way is more applicable when you need lots of individual control for each output and not so much on the input side (like feeding it the LFE from a receiver say). Select the "Advance" version if you intend to use REW to configure the biquad values of the parameteric EQ for you.

Bottom line here: I can see where in the vast majority of situations a 2X4 miniDSP with a 4-way advanced plug-in would be just the ticket.

Hope this helps.
Edited by monomer - 2/10/13 at 7:35pm
post #42 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

Using my meager knowledge of these devices/systems I will try to simplify the process of selection for you:

...eek.gif...

That's called simplified? I think I'll stick to bourbon up, please. tongue.gif

In my ignorance, I think a MiniDSP will be quite the apropos appliance add but this pick-n-choose stuff, for a total noob to the MiniDSP series, in the very least, is very daunting.

The short version of my above: eek.gif "Really!" tongue.gif

Definitely a journey.

(Honey, it's not an additional hundred dollars, it's another hundred dollars. The difference? This is a whole new direction and the money being spent is not being layered on top of an old purchase. I'm going remove the old purchase. Well, yeah, it's more money. But honey, the money is spent on my education and you do want me to get an education?)

It always helps to have an understanding wife and if not an understanding wife, as least the ability to confuse her when appropriate. tongue.gif

Thanks for the input.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/10/13 at 10:28am
post #43 of 44
Uh... It's actually more like $155... $125 for the miniDSP (in a box) plus $10 for the plug-in then there is the $20 for using Speed Post delivery from Hong Kong (no choice in the matter).

True, it is a whole lot of money if you don't really need it but for some solutions it is really going to be by far the cheapest option available. Do I absolutely NEED this device? No, but then again how much of what we already own do we REALLY need? Will it definitely improve my in-room bass response and integration of my subs? I'm hoping that's the case but as in most things in life, there really is no guarantee... you learn as much as you can about how stuff is suppose to work and then at some point just take the leap... if it doesn't all work out like you planned, you 'jigger' with it until you either do make it work or you just accept your lumps and move on hopefully with a lesson learned to show for it.

I think its going to be quite easy to set-up really... have you watched any of the YouTube vids on it? It appears to be far simpler and quicker than dealing with separate components like two active high-pass filters and two active low-pass filters, four separate phase/delay and gain controls, and four parametric EQs... imagine all separate components selected and wired up. The miniDSP has got to be a cheaper and more elegant solution for my situation. Plus I get to use REW to calculate the EQ settings for me. Heck, if nothing else, it will keep me busy... I could be doing a lot of worse things with my time and money (and that's something my wife understands).
Edited by monomer - 2/10/13 at 3:05pm
post #44 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

True, it is a whole lot of money if you don't really need it but for some solutions it is really going to be by far the cheapest option available. Do I absolutely NEED this device? No, but then again how much of what we already own do we REALLY need?

I need everything I have but I have to get rid of some of my stuff.......so I can get more stuff that I need. I "n-e-e-d" more stuff. tongue.gif

Thanks for the pricing update. I'm good and so is the other half.

Quote:
Will it definitely improve my in-room bass response and integration of my subs? I'm hoping that's the case but as in most things in life, there really is no guarantee... you learn as much as you can about how stuff is suppose to work and then at some point just take the leap... if it doesn't all work out like you planned, you 'jigger' with it until you either do make it work or you just accept your lumps and move on hopefully with a lesson learned to show for it.

My view? It's a hobby and a hobby is entertainment; enjoyment. My choices are, go out catting around but that's not good for my mental health as there would go our marriage. I can go to the bars drinking, get insulted and have a bunch of good time buddies spending all our retirement money each month in the process and ruin my liver. Or I can come here, get insulted for free and by comparison, on the cheap, stimulate the mind with these sonic challenges. So to recap, I maintain the sanctity of our marriage, the continued good health of my liver, get insulted for free and save money while stimulating my mind with quality entertainment. That sounds like a good way to spend a hundred and fifty-five bucks to me. biggrin.gif

Quote:
I think its going to be quite easy to set-up really... have you watched any of the YouTube vids on it?

Thanks for the excellent suggestion. Regarding the MiniDSP, I've searched the web for general information but nothing item specific like your YouTube recommendation would have to offer.

Quote:
It appears to be far simpler and quicker than dealing with separate components like two active high-pass filters and two active low-pass filters, four separate phase/delay and gain controls, and four parametric EQs... imagine all separate components selected and wired up. The miniDSP has got to be a cheaper and more elegant solution for my situation. Plus I get to use REW to calculate the EQ settings for me. Heck, if nothing else, it will keep me busy... I could be doing a lot of worse things with my time and money (and that's something my wife understands).

Personally, REW has shown Audyssey and Anti-Mode to be less than advertised; disappointing. Spotty at best. So I've read on AVS about the MiniDSP and it sounds like it has individual computing power, giving it much more flexibility when coupled with a computer, user and REW. Time will tell and hope springs eternal. In the end, I see it as entertainment so like a kid with a new video game, if I get two to four weeks of entertainment out of the deal, I consider the purchase a success. tongue.gif
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