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The BMS group buy thread!!! - Page 5

post #121 of 477
2/18/13 at 3:20am
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post #122 of 477
2/18/13 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Arnott View Post

The difference is in the magnet for the HF section. On the 4594 it is a ring that is outside the VC (Voice Coil), on the 4593 it is inside the VC. (Not sure if it is a ring or round slug.)
The 4594 has a slightly better Flux Density. I have been told that the HF holds a bit stronger than than the 4593, but have not compared them.

Regards, Jack Arnott

A question I got in a PM reminded me of another advantage to the 4594 over the 4592.
I have been told that the 4594 has better High Frequency dispersion.
I do not know if that is just the nature of being a 1.4 instead of 2.0, or if the phase plug protrusion thingy, and exit shaft are designed/built differently.

Regards, Jack
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post #123 of 477
2/18/13 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Interested in this. BMS driver + TD12X + SEOS 12 and a crossover for it would be a killer combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'd be interested in a few CDs. Most likely the 4550's which retail for ~$150.

FYI, the SEOS-12/15/18 were designed to match the exit angles of the B&C DE-250, Erich's DNA-360/350 and the BMS 4550. Of course all present designs are for the DE250 or DNA360. The 4550 is very high quality though.

The 4550 with a TD12 or TD15 sounds like a winner. I read this is the CD in the Danley SH50. Maybe this could become an Alpha series kit. smile.gif
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post #124 of 477
2/18/13 at 6:11pm
Welcome to AVS donivan! smile.gif
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post #125 of 477
2/18/13 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post

Welcome to AVS donivan! smile.gif

Thanks Jon_B. I've been reading everything I can about the SEOS project since I joined a couple months ago and after reading some of the reviews I'm wanting to try a SEOS build for my HT project. The hard part for me is picking which combination of components to go with.
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post #126 of 477
2/19/13 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donivan View Post


The 4550 with a TD12 or TD15 sounds like a winner. I read this is the CD in the Danley SH50. Maybe this could become an Alpha series kit. smile.gif
I agree. I am going ahead and ordering 4 of the 4550 to be combined with TD12X and SEOS 12. I hope I can find someone to work out a proper crossover for this design.smile.gif Once a XO is designed I can see more people opting for this configuration. For newbies like myself the thought of building an unproven crossover is simply overwhelming. I know somone has to be the crash test dummy for this so if anyone is interested I will mail you whatever parts and $$$ required to get it done(Within $$$ reason). It would also create a chance for someone to measure and compare with other designs. It will take a few weeks (mabey months) to receive the driver and CD but if anyone is interested in conquering this crossover Please let me know. I am very patient and appreciative!!!!
Chris
I have 2012 JTR T12's for the fronts and I feel this CD best matches them. Plus everything I read about the 4550 is positive.
Edited by countryWV - 2/19/13 at 6:09am
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post #127 of 477
2/19/13 at 6:54am
all right... my order is officially placed and invoice is paid. Ended up adding 7 of the 4550 1" CDs in addition to the pairs of 4592ND and 4595ND.

I bought all 16 ohm CDs because I don't need their efficiency. The 16ohm version won't need as much padding down to whatever woofer I choose... and an easier impedance load to drive in case I want to play with tubes (assuming I keep an eye on other things as well in the crossover)... .

MSRP total on my order was $3,922.00 and I was given the discount up front in case folks were keeping track if we've reached the minimum total for the discount.
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post #128 of 477
2/19/13 at 8:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

all right... my order is officially placed and invoice is paid. Ended up adding 7 of the 4550 1" CDs in addition to the pairs of 4592ND and 4595ND.

I bought all 16 ohm CDs because I don't need their efficiency. The 16ohm version won't need as much padding down to whatever woofer I choose... and an easier impedance load to drive in case I want to play with tubes (assuming I keep an eye on other things as well in the crossover)... .

MSRP total on my order was $3,922.00 and I was given the discount up front in case folks were keeping track if we've reached the minimum total for the discount.

Good deal Doc, nice purchase.

Country, glad to hear you are going to try out a project! I'm sure someone will chime in on xover, as ti should be a pretty straightforward one on that combo.
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post #129 of 477
2/19/13 at 8:04am
I'm going to buy two 4550s myself. i might try one set of TD12X's with the DNA 360, and the other with a 4550. I may even go active if someone comes up with a good starting point to load into a minidsp.
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post #130 of 477
2/19/13 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donivan View Post


The 4550 with a TD12 or TD15 sounds like a winner. I read this is the CD in the Danley SH50. Maybe this could become an Alpha series kit. smile.gif

Would love to see some Alpha Waveguide kits with these and the DNA360/4550. The X drivers need a decent size box and long slot port though.
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post #131 of 477
2/19/13 at 10:34pm
Crap. Looks like I will be adding a trio of 4550's to the closet list. smile.gif

Might be a nice replacement to my 360 down the road when a xover is put together.
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post #132 of 477
2/20/13 at 5:16am
I got the invoice for the horn group buy from Poland. It's well over the magic $10k mark because of all the smaller items on the pallet. Tonight I'll go through everything and send out emails to see who wants to pay some of their cost now. I have to make sure all the orders fit on the pallet.

It's suppose to ship in a week or so.


Good news, we will get two of the SEOS-24's earlier because they agreed to send a pair of them by DHL or UPS.
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post #133 of 477
2/20/13 at 6:26am
no offense intended.... but wouldn't just one seos24 be enough for measurements? I think most folks on here design crossovers in mono and don't voice their designs with stereo listening like Alan Shaw at Harbeth, Albert at Von Schweikert, etc.

only one horn shipping would likely keep the box size and crazy shipping rate down to send via DHL/UPS... just trying to save you a buck or two, Erich smile.gif You're toooo helpful sometimes smile.gif

Thanks for the update on the Poland pallet....
Edited by hometheaterdoc - 2/20/13 at 6:34am
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post #134 of 477
2/20/13 at 8:18am
Hello All,
I received an email with a question about the 18N862.
Yes it is available, (It is not listed on the price sheet), it is the same cost as the 18N860.

Regards, Jack
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post #135 of 477
2/20/13 at 11:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I got the invoice for the horn group buy from Poland. It's well over the magic $10k mark because of all the smaller items on the pallet. Tonight I'll go through everything and send out emails to see who wants to pay some of their cost now. I have to make sure all the orders fit on the pallet.

It's suppose to ship in a week or so.


Good news, we will get two of the SEOS-24's earlier because they agreed to send a pair of them by DHL or UPS.

Nice!!! Glad to hear its moving along and we can get the 24 for measuring smile.gif I will pay the full cost of mine now if you want too...jsut send me a note.
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post #136 of 477
2/20/13 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'd be interested in a few CDs. Most likely the 4550's which retail for ~$150.

FYI, the SEOS-12/15/18 were designed to match the exit angles of the B&C DE-250, Erich's DNA-360/350 and the BMS 4550. Of course all present designs are for the DE250 or DNA360. The 4550 is very high quality though.

To those considering the BMS coax compression drivers, they retail for ~$700 and require a 1.4", 1.5" or 2" horn throat. It also requires some sort of crossover, active or passive, between the high and mid.

I'm not sure there is a ton of value in trying to clone the Noesis given its $2100 price. Even if you can get the BMS coax at half of retail, you still need two high quality woofers ($750 for TD12X's let's say) and a XR1464 horn for $120. That is $1220 in parts alone. Add in the cost of crossover parts in a 3-way and a cabinet and you aren't far off of JTR's price. Yes, the TD12's are likely better woofers than what JTR uses (I don't know exactly what they use). You would also still need to design your own crossover which is hardly trivial.

There are other options for the BMS coax's though. One good option for guys with lots of space would be the horn from the JBL 4722. It is a 1.5" throat and would definitely take advantage of the BMS's ability to play down to 500hz. It is a better driver than what the 4722 comes with and far cheaper than JBL's upgraded drivers. You can get them from JBL parts for around $100. Same caveats though about designing a crossover. For a woofer, a single high quality pro 18 or 21" would work well. The BMS 18N862 would be a good choice especially if group buy prices are nicely discounted. A single in 170L tuned to ~30hz would be very nice. You could do a pair, but not needed. If I needed a pro 18" that could go full range and the price was nicely discounted the 18N862 would be one of my top choices (the other being the TD18H). I think they retail for around $500-600 but they are fairly new so prices are hard to find.

Another good horn option for the BMS coaxials are the Iwata horns from Poland. They aren't my preference, but many people like them and there are arguments for their use.

Hmmm, I've got that jbl 4722 horn (aka 2384) and a 2242, as well as some td 15xs. Could either of those midbass options combined with the 4594 yield worthwhile results?
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post #137 of 477
2/20/13 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

no offense intended.... but wouldn't just one seos24 be enough for measurements? I think most folks on here design crossovers in mono and don't voice their designs with stereo listening like Alan Shaw at Harbeth, Albert at Von Schweikert, etc.
Not everyone uses the same methodology when designing. And posts like this aren't helping when it's difficult enough to get anything separate from the pallet.
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post #138 of 477
2/21/13 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Not everyone uses the same methodology when designing.

Not disputing that at all.... and I didn't place any value judgement on any of the various methodologies employed. I just remember from various posts that the parties involved here seem to design in mono with a single speaker. I believe I saw a post from MTG indicating as such for the Sentinel design he built.

I thought the entire purpose of getting a SEOS-24 earlier than the pallet was to get firm measurements to see how low it held pattern control, how low it really went, and make sure the mega build design plans for Chop were plausible/preferred before the various group buys closed and it was too late to change orders. I was just not sure why two SEOS-24s are needed for that purpose.

Given the price to ship something of the size of a SEOS-24 via expedited air travel with the big shippers rather than USPS or other cheaper freight options, Erich is either going to do the completely illogical thing of eating the shipping price himself, or he's going to average it out on the pallet of items and everyone pays a couple bucks more to get it here sooner for testing purposes. Either way, there's incentive to keep this particular shipment's price down. Just making a friendly suggestion. It's perfectly fine to completely ignore said suggestion. It wouldn't be the first time I've been ignored wink.gif hehehe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

And posts like this aren't helping when it's difficult enough to get anything separate from the pallet.

It would be great if folks could order individually direct and get the Poland folks to ship via various options. I'm not a fan of waiting on the pallet either. I've technically been waiting since last August for the Iwatas I've got on order... Not really complaining as it is what it is... But being the impatient bugger I am, I likely would have paid the premium for shipping by now if the choice was there 6 months ago and I knew the next pallet wouldn't be here until what seems like sometime in March at this point... but since that pallet is now finally close to shipping and might arrive by mid March, the difference in waiting now versus paying the premium isn't as valued. Not trying to cause issues, just making a suggestion given the current status of things as I said above...
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post #139 of 477
2/21/13 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Hmmm, I've got that jbl 4722 horn (aka 2384) and a 2242, as well as some td 15xs. Could either of those midbass options combined with the 4594 yield worthwhile results?

You would need the 4595ND because the JBL horn is a 1.5" throat (althought you could possibly machine a small adapter plate to transition from 1.4" to 1.5"...this would give you more flexibility with trying horns). It would definitely have potential. I would look for a cross somewhere around 600hz which is what JBL does. The BMS coaxs are better than all but maybe the TOTL JBL 4" coated ti, mg or be diaphragms. (I haven't compared them to know for sure...should definitely be a jump over the JBL 2432 used in the 4722 though) As far as woofers, a pair of TD15X's below it would be great...or just one per speaker too. I'm not sure how well the 2242 plays up to 600hz, but you could try it.

Of course you would need to take acoustic measurements if you are going to do 3-way actives and you would need acoustic and impedance measurements if you want a passive between the coax hf and mf. I would stick to active between the woofers and horn. Measuring at these lower frequencies is more difficult due to the wavelengths involved. It would be best if you could measure outdoors.
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post #140 of 477
2/21/13 at 3:33pm
THX for the response, with the 15s would you suggest side by side or mtm?
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post #141 of 477
2/21/13 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

Not disputing that at all.... and I didn't place any value judgement on any of the various methodologies employed. I just remember from various posts that the parties involved here seem to design in mono with a single speaker. I believe I saw a post from MTG indicating as such for the Sentinel design he built.

I thought the entire purpose of getting a SEOS-24 earlier than the pallet was to get firm measurements to see how low it held pattern control, how low it really went, and make sure the mega build design plans for Chop were plausible/preferred before the various group buys closed and it was too late to change orders. I was just not sure why two SEOS-24s are needed for that purpose.

Given the price to ship something of the size of a SEOS-24 via expedited air travel with the big shippers rather than USPS or other cheaper freight options, Erich is either going to do the completely illogical thing of eating the shipping price himself, or he's going to average it out on the pallet of items and everyone pays a couple bucks more to get it here sooner for testing purposes. Either way, there's incentive to keep this particular shipment's price down. Just making a friendly suggestion. It's perfectly fine to completely ignore said suggestion. It wouldn't be the first time I've been ignored wink.gif hehehe
It would be great if folks could order individually direct and get the Poland folks to ship via various options. I'm not a fan of waiting on the pallet either. I've technically been waiting since last August for the Iwatas I've got on order... Not really complaining as it is what it is... But being the impatient bugger I am, I likely would have paid the premium for shipping by now if the choice was there 6 months ago and I knew the next pallet wouldn't be here until what seems like sometime in March at this point... but since that pallet is now finally close to shipping and might arrive by mid March, the difference in waiting now versus paying the premium isn't as valued. Not trying to cause issues, just making a suggestion given the current status of things as I said above...

I'm not sure you were waiting since August, because this group buy started much later than that. You might have decided you wanted them back then, but there was no group buy going on at that time. You should have taken the whites ones I had and painted those suckers.

Why dos Seos? If there are 2 designs being worked on, we'll need 2 SEOS-24's. Why get one when you can get 2. biggrin.gif

Shipping isn't going to change that much between 1 versus 2 either way. Hopefully they're shipped DHL or FedEx and the price is around $200.

Anyone can order 2 Iwata-300's from Autotech, but they wouldn't ship on a pallet and the shipping alone for that size box would likely be at least $300 per package. You'd have to be pretty impatient to spend that much extra.
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post #142 of 477
2/22/13 at 11:50am
8/21/12 was the date I ordered what we thought at the time was an in stock pair of black iwata-300s.... which, of course, you found out on 9/24 when you were loading the pallet that they were white and not black. I committed to a black pair as soon as they could be delivered from poland.

You're right, there wasn't an official pallet filling effort going on at that time... but I was still *technically* waiting for what I wanted (a black pair) since 8/21. Semantics? sure....

I freely admit it.... I can be illogical at times: I have less issue paying more for shipping to get the exact item I want than I do paying full ~$790 price for the pair of horns in a color I don't want..... and then have to try to spray paint a more correct color evenly (or pay additional expense to have it professionally done in a nice paint booth)... the wife's already going to be unhappy when they make an appearance in the living room on top of a woofer box. Having them half a$$ed painted would have guaranteed more ill tempered responses...
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post #143 of 477
2/24/13 at 11:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

You would need the 4595ND because the JBL horn is a 1.5" throat (althought you could possibly machine a small adapter plate to transition from 1.4" to 1.5"...this would give you more flexibility with trying horns). It would definitely have potential. I would look for a cross somewhere around 600hz which is what JBL does. The BMS coaxs are better than all but maybe the TOTL JBL 4" coated ti, mg or be diaphragms. (I haven't compared them to know for sure...should definitely be a jump over the JBL 2432 used in the 4722 though) As far as woofers, a pair of TD15X's below it would be great...or just one per speaker too. I'm not sure how well the 2242 plays up to 600hz, but you could try it.

Of course you would need to take acoustic measurements if you are going to do 3-way actives and you would need acoustic and impedance measurements if you want a passive between the coax hf and mf. I would stick to active between the woofers and horn. Measuring at these lower frequencies is more difficult due to the wavelengths involved. It would be best if you could measure outdoors.

Just a WAG from looking at the horn, but I would guess that the horn would go lower than 600hz, and that the driver is the reason it cant go lower.
I did poke around a bit, and couldn't find much info on the horn, other than in combination with the driver and the woofers.

I did have one movie house replace their JBL drivers with BMS. The tech said he had to drill new holes in the horn to mount the BMS. Apparently the JBL is not a standard 4" bolt pattern.

These JBLs look much nicer than the 4580/4582 I used to use. I say that because I don't see nearly as much throat compression for HF dispersion on this 1.5".
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post #144 of 477
2/25/13 at 4:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Arnott View Post

Just a WAG from looking at the horn, but I would guess that the horn would go lower than 600hz, and that the driver is the reason it cant go lower.
I did poke around a bit, and couldn't find much info on the horn, other than in combination with the driver and the woofers.

I did have one movie house replace their JBL drivers with BMS. The tech said he had to drill new holes in the horn to mount the BMS. Apparently the JBL is not a standard 4" bolt pattern.

These JBLs look much nicer than the 4580/4582 I used to use. I say that because I don't see nearly as much throat compression for HF dispersion on this 1.5".

It kind of depends on the criteria you have for how low a horn should be used.

The JBLs your client used would have been older models if they used the larger bolt pattern. The current JBL horns and drivers use the smaller pattern same as BMS.
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post #145 of 477
2/25/13 at 9:57am
Could someone send me the BMS price list? TIA
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post #146 of 477
2/25/13 at 11:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Could someone send me the BMS price list? TIA

Get me your email and I will send it right over for you.
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post #147 of 477
2/25/13 at 11:23am
What are the chances of someone designing a xover for a TD15/Seos 12/4550 combo? I'd love to go with the 4550 over the 360, but am worried about being able to get them to play together (for us stupid people who have no idea how to build a xover). smile.gif
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post #148 of 477
2/25/13 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Get me your email and I will send it right over for you.
My bad, I didn't mean my personal email, just an AVS pm and thx!
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post #149 of 477
2/25/13 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

What are the chances of someone designing a xover for a TD15/Seos 12/4550 combo? I'd love to go with the 4550 over the 360, but am worried about being able to get them to play together (for us stupid people who have no idea how to build a xover). smile.gif

When I have the drivers here for Jake's SEOSR design I was planning on dropping a TD15M into the Sentinel enclosure I have and design a crossover for it and the SEOS-12/DNA-360. If you want you can ship a 4550 over here and I can pop that CD in and design a crossover around that one as well. Unless someone closer has a 4550 they would not mind sending over for design purposes.
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post #150 of 477
2/25/13 at 2:42pm
What are the advantages (if any) of using BMS 4550 16 ohm vs 8 ohm with the AE TD15M 8 Ohm driver?
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