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The BMS group buy thread!!! - Page 2

post #31 of 477
2/7/13 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

To be honest, I am just going to order one of the BMS passives to use (ok for Matt to use) to design the final xovers. I am going to build passives for all the speakers, but mount them in a unique fashion so they can be disabled to compare to some attempts at active. I'm leaking a bit of info early here, but do you guys wanna see a surround with a SEOS24, BMS 4594 and dual 12s...???!!! biggrin.gif:D:D

24" is just too wide for me, but I'm interested in seeing some designs off the coaxials.
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post #32 of 477
2/7/13 at 12:14pm
Hey Chop, are your SEOS-24's on this pallet? ehem, if you're actually sitting in front of them, right now, without posting pics...you're being a total TEASE! tongue.gif

Hmm, I've got one BMS-4550 that I'll use for a surround build, but I'll need another. I'm in if it all pans out. cool.gif
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post #33 of 477
2/7/13 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Seriously, if you could get a speaker that sounds like the Noesis (or better), has the same sensitivity, BUT has extension like I'm seeing in some of these SEOS builds - wow, un-friggin-real. There is something about running mains only no sub for music that is so appealing whether it's needed or not.

Chopshop, you've come a long way since the custom eD Cinema 12 ordering days!! smile.gif

Hoffman's iron law says it will require an increase in size to offer the same sensitivity AND better extension. The Noesis 212 plays down to ~80hz and is ~100db sensitive. To get 30-40hz extension AND ~100db sensitivity, you would probably need a pair of 18" pro drivers like the BMS 18N862s or AE 18N862. The box would need to be around 10-12 cubic feet.

I would say that it would be a much better speaker than the Noesis (assuming a good crossover...big assumption), but would cost more and be much much bigger.
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post #34 of 477
2/7/13 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Hoffman's iron law says it will require an increase in size to offer the same sensitivity AND better extension. The Noesis 212 plays down to ~80hz and is ~100db sensitive. To get 30-40hz extension AND ~100db sensitivity, you would probably need a pair of 18" pro drivers like the BMS 18N862s or AE 18N862. The box would need to be around 10-12 cubic feet.

I would say that it would be a much better speaker than the Noesis (assuming a good crossover...big assumption), but would cost more and be much much bigger.

What about using something like 2 of the 15S430 15" drivers per cab? They are 98db sensitive each and retail on their site for 314. With the discount we would be looking at only ~220 per. I don't know what the volume requirements are but they seem to have decent extension - plenty to get most of us in room down in the 20s or lower.

thoughts?
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post #35 of 477
2/7/13 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Ya, I was gonna say. There should be some coordination for a design. Like, BMS 4550 / SEOS12 / BMS *most popular woofer*. If people buy very nice parts willy nilly they better be ready to design a cross over for them.

I'd probably use the 4550 with the SEOS-15 and make it a premium model with a lower cross to a 15". I don't see much need for another SEOS-12 design. I also don't see any BMS mid-woofer's that have measurements that look so good. They might be out there but I don't see it.
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post #36 of 477
2/7/13 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Hey Chop, are your SEOS-24's on this pallet? ehem, if you're actually sitting in front of them, right now, without posting pics...you're being a total TEASE! tongue.gif

Hmm, I've got one BMS-4550 that I'll use for a surround build, but I'll need another. I'm in if it all pans out. cool.gif

I have placed my order for them..don't have them yet.

The buy is on, just spoke to them and I should have the groupl buy id before the day is out and a price list to give all. Remember when you see the prices, that is before discount. We will get 30% of everything we order.
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post #37 of 477
2/7/13 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

What about using something like 2 of the 15S430 15" drivers per cab? They are 98db sensitive each and retail on their site for 314. With the discount we would be looking at only ~220 per. I don't know what the volume requirements are but they seem to have decent extension - plenty to get most of us in room down in the 20s or lower.

thoughts?

That might work. They only have 8mm of xmax though. The 18N862's have 18mm I think. You could probably get down to a realistic 20hz with the right tuning in room and not worry about overexcursion. The 18N862's was more of an ultimate solution. I haven't used these myself and I've not even come across many builds that use BMS woofers. I can only go off of website specs and curves. The 18N862 might not play high enough. The curve looks good to 500hz, but spec sheet says 200hz max. Spec sheets aren't really worth all that much. You can't put much weight into them and BMS's are thin.
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post #38 of 477
2/7/13 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'd probably use the 4550 with the SEOS-15 and make it a premium model with a lower cross to a 15". I don't see much need for another SEOS-12 design. I also don't see any BMS mid-woofer's that have measurements that look so good. They might be out there but I don't see it.


I agree there isn't much need for another SEOS12 design. I just took a look at the product page for the 4550 and BMS says it's good for a 800hz cross over. That's SEOS15 territory, but the response graph falls like a brick below 800hz. Not sure how easy it would be to cross down there. I find the DNA-360 a pretty capable CD. I cross the DNA-350 at 950hz in my personal speaker, and it's not a problem. What does the 4550 offer over the DE250 or DNA-360?

When are we gonna see a SEOS15 design from you Max biggrin.gif I'm pretty sure you're sitting on a pair of SEOS 15s. That would be pretty epic.
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post #39 of 477
2/7/13 at 1:39pm
Thread Starter 
Guys, when you pm me, please include your email and I can get you the price list on all BMS products as well smile.gif
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post #40 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:03pm
If you want someone to coordinate the group buy, I'm willing to do it.
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post #41 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:04pm
Thread Starter 
Couple of quick notes guys...our fearless leader, Erich H, has been gracious as always:

The group buy products ordered will all ship directly to him and he will break down the orders for each person who bought something.

He has also been nice enough to start a group buy tag on the DIY site. When anyone places an order, please let him know so that he can update the site and we will know where we stand.

I should also make a point about the build I am currntly working on with Matt...the one that started the idea for the group buy. Gorilla, popalock and myself all harassed Matt to help us build an "uber main" HT speaker. As we got going, it got more and more extreme. I think we have come back down a bit toward reality, but it is still a very large, very expensive DIY build. Its going to be at least the size of a JBL Everest and the matching surrounds I will build are going to be enormous too. They will end up being about 28"w X 30"h X 11"d and have a SEOS24 and dual 12s..the surrounds that is biggrin.gif I just didn't want anyone thinking there is some reasonable project that is going along with this buy. Of course, I'm sure that many others will come up with designs that fit there needs and want BMS products for other things, but I thought it best to disclose the detials of my build. It doesn't affect the group buy one bit, everyone is able to order whatever BMS products they wish on this buy and receive the discount. Erich thought it would be a good idea to let everyone know about the big project though, and I agree. If you think the surrounds sound big, the main are much bigger. Hopefully this group buy will help a lotof folks get great deals on parts they want and spark some cool builds all over the diy forum wink.gif
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post #42 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

If you want someone to coordinate the group buy, I'm willing to do it.

Thanks Doc, at this point, Erich has started a group by on DIYsoundgroup and I have been sending the price list out to folks with contact info for Assistance audio along with the group buy id#. I appreciate the offer!
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post #43 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:27pm
Wow, that's a pretty insane project you have in mind. Are you sure you're not going TO big? I hope your seating distance is at least 15', which I'm sure it is. I sit 10' away, so this wouldn't work well for me biggrin.gif

Thankfully you're using a coax CD. That'll help. To measure polars, Matt's going to have his work cut out for him eek.gif
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post #44 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:31pm
Hmmm...What sort of a time frame are we looking at here?

These are a pretty nice woofer...tongue.gif

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100
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post #45 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I have to ask what is the SEOS 24?
Chris

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/fiberglass-seos/seos24.html
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post #46 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:41pm
Hahaha, we have come down a few notches on the insanity level. It topped out at a vertical WTMMW where the there would be two high sensitivity 12" mids below the BMS/SEOS-24 combo then 24" woofers above and below those. Jake said that was a little over his budget biggrin.gif Not to mention it would be a 7' high 500+ pound monstrosity of a speaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Wow, that's a pretty insane project you have in mind. Are you sure you're not going TO big? I hope your seating distance is at least 15', which I'm sure it is. I sit 10' away, so this wouldn't work well for me biggrin.gif

Thankfully you're using a coax CD. That'll help. To measure polars, Matt's going to have his work cut out for him eek.gif

It will sure be interesting, I hope the weather will be kind.
Edited by mtg90 - 2/7/13 at 3:48pm
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post #47 of 477
2/7/13 at 3:53pm
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post #48 of 477
2/7/13 at 4:22pm
Reminds me of this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1362903/now-thats-an-mtm

That thread reads a little funny cause Penn and I were at each others throats and then we made up in PM and deleted some posts and edited others. Massive speaker though. I think what you guys have going on here could do even better biggrin.gif
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post #49 of 477
2/7/13 at 5:19pm
ChopShop, that will be an awesome speaker. You are crazy to use them as surrounds. Nothing wrong with that, just insane.

Tux, it is funny you bring up that old thread. Penn was/is a real character. Its too bad he doesn't post anymore. I actually heard those speakers demo'd the next year at Cedia. It is the one and only time I've heard the BMS coax. It is tough to make a complete judgement in a demo room, but I did like them. BMS makes good stuff. Interestingly, that designer doesn't use BMS woofers.

I've never used the 4550, so I can't say what it might offer over the DE250/DNA360. It is Danley's CD of choice (or the neo versions). I'd get them just to try them. I'd be surprised that if they are EQ'd to the same target that there would be much audible difference. I'd also stick to ~1khz xover with the SEOS-15. I do have a pair of SEOS-15's but I've been too busy to build speakers. I'm also waiting for some baffles from Erich (but the hold up isn't his fault...they'd still be collecting dust so I told him to take care of other orders first).
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post #50 of 477
2/7/13 at 5:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Wow, that's a pretty insane project you have in mind. Are you sure you're not going TO big? I hope your seating distance is at least 15', which I'm sure it is. I sit 10' away, so this wouldn't work well for me biggrin.gif



Thankfully you're using a coax CD. That'll help. To measure polars, Matt's going to have his work cut out for him eek.gif

My first row of seats will be at 14', so close enough. The second row, which will containt my seat smile.gif, will be at 22' and the third at about 30'. Hopefully it all integrates well. I have the utmost confidence in Matt's ability to get the crossover right. He desinged a great speaker in the Sentinel. I'm going to be sending him all the components so that he can tweak and change, and take his time with it until he feels its optimized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Hahaha, we have come down a few notches on the insanity level. It topped out at a vertical WTMMW where the there would be two high sensitivity 12" mids below the BMS/SEOS-24 combo then 24" woofers above and below those. Jake said that was a little over his budget biggrin.gif Not to mention it would be a 7' high 500+ pound monstrosity of a speaker.
It will sure be interesting, I hope the weather will be kind.

Yeah, now we can build a 4 and a half foot tall one that's 300lbs biggrin.gif
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post #51 of 477
2/7/13 at 8:03pm
Oh how cool. Everybody seems to be going gaga over the compression drivers - and rightly so, they're great, but their concentrics look interesting too. Their new 5" neo concentric might be fun to compare to the KEF and Pioneer/TAD drivers in that size range...
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post #52 of 477
2/8/13 at 6:33am
That 5" might be a good solution for you DS.
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post #53 of 477
2/8/13 at 7:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

ChopShop, that will be an awesome speaker. You are crazy to use them as surrounds. Nothing wrong with that, just insane.

Tux, it is funny you bring up that old thread. Penn was/is a real character. Its too bad he doesn't post anymore. I actually heard those speakers demo'd the next year at Cedia. It is the one and only time I've heard the BMS coax. It is tough to make a complete judgement in a demo room, but I did like them. BMS makes good stuff. Interestingly, that designer doesn't use BMS woofers.

I've never used the 4550, so I can't say what it might offer over the DE250/DNA360. It is Danley's CD of choice (or the neo versions). I'd get them just to try them. I'd be surprised that if they are EQ'd to the same target that there would be much audible difference. I'd also stick to ~1khz xover with the SEOS-15. I do have a pair of SEOS-15's but I've been too busy to build speakers. I'm also waiting for some baffles from Erich (but the hold up isn't his fault...they'd still be collecting dust so I told him to take care of other orders first).


I have been called crazy a lot lately biggrin.gif I am going to use the the dual 12 version for surrounds and most likely a dual 15 for the mains. I wouldn't have used the surounds like that, but I am pain, and concerned about an exact match/ideal setup so..Its still going to end up costing me about the same as if I did the Noeiss up front and only single 8 surrounds. My hope is that for the same money, it outperforms jsut about anythign I could have bought for even double the $$. Plus, I'll feel good about the fact that I buil tthem, with lots of design help of course.

I thought the same thing about them not using the BMS woofers. I have been very tempted to use them because of the discount, but not sue how I feel in the end. We have it between them, the B&C tbx woofers and the AEs right now...just have to make a decision on which one
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post #54 of 477
2/8/13 at 7:58am
AE......... smile.gif
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post #55 of 477
2/8/13 at 8:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

AE......... smile.gif


I know, I know biggrin.gif Just waiting on a call back from John wink.gif
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post #56 of 477
2/8/13 at 8:44am
If you wanted to timbre match the surrounds something SEOS-15 with BMS 4550s and a woofer that is similar to your mains would work. I personally don't get as hung up on surrounds as some people. The most important part about surrounds is making sure they don't run out of steam before the mains. That is where using a run-of-the-mill hifi surround with high dynamic capable mains turns into a mess. You are drawn to the compressed sound of the weak surrounds. It is kind of like the effect people experience the first time they hear uncompressed dynamics. All of the traditional stuff sounds terrible after that.

Of course there is nothing wrong with crazy overkill. Do you have measurements of the SEOS-24?
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post #57 of 477
2/8/13 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I know, I know biggrin.gif Just waiting on a call back from John wink.gif

This would be the most Epic group buy combo of all time. biggrin.gif
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post #58 of 477
2/8/13 at 8:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If you wanted to timbre match the surrounds something SEOS-15 with BMS 4550s and a woofer that is similar to your mains would work. I personally don't get as hung up on surrounds as some people. The most important part about surrounds is making sure they don't run out of steam before the mains. That is where using a run-of-the-mill hifi surround with high dynamic capable mains turns into a mess. You are drawn to the compressed sound of the weak surrounds. It is kind of like the effect people experience the first time they hear uncompressed dynamics. All of the traditional stuff sounds terrible after that.

Of course there is nothing wrong with crazy overkill. Do you have measurements of the SEOS-24?

You know, I thought about that too. Wouldn't it be less than idealt o have the mains running the horn down to 400hz and the surrounds at 1k+?? from a mtching standpoint I mean, I just can't get my head to think there won't be a difference. I would love to be proven wrong, It would save me a bundle!! But I digress, I have already ordered my 9 seos24s:D:D:D I like the overkill, and for a couple of grand, I will never question the ability of my surrounds...heck I almost lost $6k oin the ED deal, so $10k on this is fine with me.

I assume you aren't asking for the physical measurements of the piece...I have nothing other than that, just going on my research, Erich and Matt at this point.
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post #59 of 477
2/8/13 at 8:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

This would be the most Epic group buy combo of all time. biggrin.gif

Trying to get it done, just need to hear back from John..hopefully soon cause now I'm convinved that I need the AE drivers for the build. Thanks ehoeft:D
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post #60 of 477
2/8/13 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Trying to get it done, just need to hear back from John..hopefully soon cause now I'm convinved that I need the AE drivers for the build. Thanks ehoeft:D

Jake you know I'm all for +1 on using the AE woofs as well. biggrin.gif I assume you're already at a point for a decent price break, but keep us posted should we get into the deep discount territory if we add a few in with your order. biggrin.gif
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