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S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 35

post #1021 of 1497
Haha, ah it WAS the simpsons THX intro. Thats why i immediately heard grandpa simpson in my head when i saw the picture biggrin.gif

Turn it up, turn it uuup!
post #1022 of 1497
in order to help you get a sense of what content will be going to your mains what content will be going to your subs, i took a sample of a voyager theme remix that i was playing around with this evening/morning and provided:

1. full range, no filters
2. high passed at 60hz 24db/octave (content for mains)
3. low passed at 60hz 24db/octave (content for subwoofers)

full range.zip 949k .zip file

high pass.zip 949k .zip file

low pass.zip 946k .zip file

EDIT: added a set using 80hz crossover point (just in case there was any interest)

4. high passed at 80hz 24db/octave (content for mains)
5. low passed at 80hz 24db/octave (content for subwoofers)

mains - 80hz.zip 950k .zip file

subs - 80hz.zip 947k .zip file



.
Edited by LTD02 - 9/28/13 at 6:41am
post #1023 of 1497
the spectral content of the full range, the subwoofer content, and the mains content (both with the 60hz audio files):

full range content:


subwoofer content:


mains content:

Edited by LTD02 - 9/28/13 at 6:40am
post #1024 of 1497
point being, with a 60hz cross, there is a LOT OF BASS in the mains. ;-)

i listen with a some eq which is why there is a little bit of a "jbl smile" in the spectral content, but that is actually mostly how the energy in the track is distributed naturally.

the raw file is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_RkWWk9aQk
post #1025 of 1497
what can also be seen in the plots in the top section is the absolute peak to average spl. the green line is the highest peak hit at any point during playback, while the red line is an average level of the spl. the difference between the two is the absolute peak-to-average. since we set the volume level based on some flavor of "average", the system, in this case, must be capable of approximately 20db of headroom over average across the entire frequency spectrum so that the peaks will not get clipped off.
post #1026 of 1497
I really like the look of that quad 15 speaker. Just looks awesome. I cant fit that size but its makes me want to try and build an 8" version with the SEOS18. Thanks for stirring the pot. biggrin.gif
post #1027 of 1497
Love this thread
post #1028 of 1497
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

point being, with a 60hz cross, there is a LOT OF BASS in the mains. ;-)

i listen with a some eq which is why there is a little bit of a "jbl smile" in the spectral content, but that is actually mostly how the energy in the track is distributed naturally.

the raw file is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_RkWWk9aQk

I guess there is...

I have some work done on them today, so one step closer to seeing how they do. Hopefully before tomorrow is out they will be 90% assembled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I really like the look of that quad 15 speaker. Just looks awesome. I cant fit that size but its makes me want to try and build an 8" version with the SEOS18. Thanks for stirring the pot. biggrin.gif

I hear ya. The look of those cartoon quads has basically cemented the fact that eventually, I'll build the quads. I just can't see that and then say no. I'm sure the duals will be great and I can't wait to hear them either, but the eventual quad build gives me something to look forward to working on next.

What about quad 10s and the seos24?? Not much bigger and allows much lower cross to horn (should, assuming you'd use a cd that could be crossed lower)
post #1029 of 1497
Quad 10's would allow a much narrower enclosure...and then you would actually need the 18's. biggrin.gif
post #1030 of 1497
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Quad 10's would allow a much narrower enclosure...and then you would actually need the 18's. biggrin.gif

Hey, we're spending Chrapladm's money now biggrin.gif
post #1031 of 1497
How might a quad 10" AE TD10 compare to the duel AE TD15? Is there an advantage going with 15's over 10's? I would assume that the TD10's can go up high enough to crossover at say.....500hz, and then down low cross to the subs at 80hz, right? So if you are crossing at 500hz and 80hz, what advantage is there to be gained with the TD15's?
post #1032 of 1497
Thread Starter 
From what I can tell, the 15s are a few db more sensitive, can go a bit lower and can also be useful as high as the 500hz and beyond. I would guess that quad 10s would perform fairly similarly to dual 15s, but take more effort to get tweaked to perfection. I like the idea of starting with duals of the larger woofer in this case (bigger isn't always better) and having the option to expand without a complete re vamp. Once one has 4 10's incorporated, you are going to move to 8....I think biggrin.gif

In Chrapladm's situation, it may be that room won't allow anything beyond the 8s he mentions, or maybe the 10s, either of which would probably do very well. When we first started discussing this project, someone brought up the idea of quad tens (may have been Mark Seaton).

I just modeled the quad 10S vs dual 15 and it would seem that the dual 15s have an output advantage most of the way through range we are talking about...(I can't get the chart attached for some reason) The output advantage seems significant from 100hz down. I could be wrong in my assumptions, but it seems this way from what I can tell.
post #1033 of 1497
marty, the excursion on the 10m and 15m is the same, but the 15 is 2.5 times larger in radiating area, so you'd need 2.5 10's to equal each 15. since the cost of the 10's is only about 10% less than the 15's and since the 15's can easily be crossed at the 450hz target, there is simply no reason to go with the 10's (well, from those angles anyway).

but perhaps even more importantly, as luke mentioned a while back...

You gain awesomeness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics :-)

from post #89 when chop got a first glimpse of quad 15's in mockup...

"Yeeeeeesssssss! I love it!!! the four woofer arrangement is the cats a$$. Spend my $$!!!!"

that is the effect of awesomeness and can't be explained, just observed. it is something that must be experienced to be understood.

that is why the people in the thx trailer are pumping their hands in the air. some things just draw it out of folks...

trailer again. :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFlIXwf9zk&list=PLCC8A800404E91936

.
Edited by LTD02 - 9/28/13 at 7:34pm
post #1034 of 1497
Thread Starter 
Hahahaha...yes, the unexplainable need to have far more than we know is necessary. The awesomeness factor cannot be ignored. Thanks for providing him the other details on the compare.
post #1035 of 1497
Spend Spend Spend.....LOL I will be going with a dual 8" or maybe a dual 10" depending on the price difference. The SEOS 24 would be nice but that would be another 200 then 150 shipping each or something like that. Then add in the CD and it gets quite costly. If I use what I have for now, QSC 152 WG, then I can realistically get the project done before a year goes by. Also while trying to stay away from a HUGE speaker, the SEOS 18 and dual/quad 8' will be closer to a 30" tall speaker verse almost 40" with SEOS 24 and 10's. I like the small form factor with the 8's. I am sure when I see the price I will want to lean towards the 10's but the final product of a speaker that is smaller is more tempting. Will start off with dual 8 MTM anyways. Eventually I will try and see what the shipping costs will actually be for the 18 and 24 SEOS. Wont hold my breath though.

While I like crazy headroom budget is what matters most and then not creating another eye soar in the living room. Wife doesnt mind so much but I know she is tired of seeing constant changes with my speakers. Need to improve my finishing skillz for sure.

Also wish I could hear a CD before I bought but I will just take the gamble. My last TPL-150 made my SLA's speakers sound like I didnt have any tweeters on them, HUGE difference. I must have had a roll off at around 10khz or something up top. I finally got a Umik Mic so I can at least test my speakers now and see what I am missing.

Back to my example and budget I will have to make some cardboard mock ups and see. Everest-like dual 10/SEOS24 would be about 25"x 27" or 25" x 38" with quad 10's.. The dual 8 MTM with QSC is about 25"tall x 14"or 23" with quads. And my needs are only reference volume in a 15ft listening area. Biggest problem usually is my mains lack kick. Yes I cross over to my subs but at times I really like having full rage mains. In saying that I would port around 50hz. And that would be enough for me. I have always wanted to try the SEOS24 but I am afraid shipping might kill me and make that not doable......ERICH !!!. lol
post #1036 of 1497
"Biggest problem usually is my mains lack kick. Yes I cross over to my subs but at times I really like having full rage mains. In saying that I would port around 50hz. And that would be enough for me. I have always wanted to try the SEOS24 but I am afraid shipping might kill me and make that not doable..."

in the same jbl synthesis family as the everest is the synthesis atlas, which has dual 10's in a ported enclosure. i *think* that horn is 18" wide. if going full range, you might port just a little lower than 50...



here are some quick sketches of combos

seos 24, 2x10


seos 18, 2x10


seos 18 4x10


seos 24, 2x12

Edited by LTD02 - 9/28/13 at 10:30pm
post #1037 of 1497
Thanks a lot LTD!!! rolleyes.gif LOL

The dual 10 SEOS 24 looks .........not right. The dual 10" looks very nice with the SEOS 18 though. And yet of coarse the quad 10/18, SEOSR jr lol, and the dual 12/24 look great. And if using the 24 that just gives me more the reason to buy the 18 Sound 12NMB420 pair of woofers. Really need to see how horrible the 24 shipping will cost.

Just went from a small speaker to a much bigger one in a day. LOL Atleast with the dual 12 I am under 30" tall. smile.gif I would go with AE products but with a asking price around 310 plus about 130 for shipping it is too dear. My 15 NLW9300's were about 330 dollars and I picked them up locally. So the 12" NMB should be closer to around 250. Will find out over the next few days. Will be ordering the 18 Sound 8's anyways for a JBL 8" square WG combo for surrounds.
post #1038 of 1497
no problem and, yeah... something about the 24/10 looks, as you said...not right. :-)

i just used nominal dimensions though. the exact dimensions of the horn and drivers may be slightly different.

since you mentioned full range, something a little different might be worth considering:

two td12X drivers in 4 cubic feet tuned to 38hz give this:



excursion is 14mm on those drivers and with 1000 watts on the pair (as shown) excursion is only 11mm. and you'd probably be flat into the 40's with boundary gain, maybe even a little lower.

so when it comes time to kick into full range music mode if that is something that you want to do, you will have all the headroom you want.
post #1039 of 1497
Thread Starter 
Chrapladm, any of the options will probably work out great with the right planning. Sent you a pm about shipping on the seos24
post #1040 of 1497
Thread Starter 
LTD, this is making me think a bit.....do you think it would be a total nightmare to blend a couple TD15X models in as the 3rd and 4th woofer and run them lower and lowpass from the 15M lower as well?? It looks like it could throw things out of balance and may not be worth it, just thinking with there higher xmax and ability to play a bit lower with some more authority might have made sense.
post #1041 of 1497
Thanks chop. I am interested in the SEOS 24 but really need to see what the cheapest shipping price is that I can get. Secondly I live in Adelaide, South Australia. So not to far from you. LOL. I did live in CT when I went to A school but that was a few years back. Rotten Grotten.

LTD that is always an option and I do like the full range music playing without the sub. I have subs but most of my music does not the low end. Love listening to acoustic guitar and other genres with no sub. BUT in saying that I did really love my PA TH sub designed by LilMike with my SLA's. BUT that is too big for the room. So back to the dual 12/24 model. I will more than likely go with 18 Sound drivers for my setup as they are the most affordable for me.

What was the shipping on the SEOS 24 cost? And what did the AE TD12's cost in the group buy? Was it 30% off?

I look forward to your passive high active low end chop. Was thinking of doing something very similar and will probably do the same setup for the most part. I just have to find some amps that are almost completely silent. Extreme efficiency helps.
post #1042 of 1497
"do you think it would be a total nightmare to blend a couple TD15X models in as the 3rd and 4th woofer and run them lower and lowpass from the 15M lower as well??"

same issue as we discussed with the td18's as helper woofers. if run together, the 15m runs out of gas first. if not run completely together, integration may get challenging.

max spl setup:
with 4 td15m's per speaker, tuned to 50hz and crossed there, xmax is hit at about ~135 db spl per speaker with no boundary gain. that's probably north of 140db how you will have them set up.

a little more extension version:
alternatively, with 4 td15m's per speaker, tuned to 40hz and crossed there, xmax is hit at about ~132 db spl per speaker with no boundary gain. still up around 140db or so with boundary gain.

in jbl's pro cinema lineup, iirc, there is only one speaker that has four 15" drivers and it is meant to be run full range in the largest cinemas in the world. it is loaded with 2226 woofers, which have only a mm or two more xmax than the td15m's. i can't see needing more than that. i'll see if i can go dig up a pick to show you how ridiculous something like that looks...
post #1043 of 1497
here is the 5674. :-)

post #1044 of 1497
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

here is the 5674. :-)


Aahahahaha...very nice:D

Yeah, I was afraid of the integration issues. We'll see how the duals do, and try quad 15M from there since I have 14 of them still biggrin.gif


Chrap, the TD12 was a hair less than 250 I think on the group buy(can't remember exactly...hold that thought, the price list from the last buy, $235 a piece for 12s...we fell a few pieces short of 100

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457938/ae-group-buy-2013

John has said that future buys wouldn't be this aggressive because it starts to really tighten up his line on the product. Even at $250 or so in a group buy, I think a TD12 is hard to beat. I am going to talk to John about another buy over the next week. I am going to try to mock a few new ideas up, and even if those don't work out I need more woofs for a third row of sides and some height speakers. If I can help out by organizing another buy, I'd be happy to.

Australia's close, just stop by after work one night biggrin.gif
post #1045 of 1497
230 would be nice and hard to pass up. Closest thing 18 Sound has is something with a slight bit more inductance and 8mm Xmax. But it does have 18.5 Max Xmax before damage. Will definitely be interested in the group buy if prices are reasonable.
post #1046 of 1497
Side by side woofer come with some complication. Beware.

You can use PCD to see what the directivity does. Use the piston diameter and the x offsets properly and you'll see what happens.
post #1047 of 1497
I will try and see what I can do in PCD. I have never used it before. I hope that there aren't to high of complicating variables that will make my project a no go. Seems JBL did it so I have hope either way. I also thought the 500hz crossover makes many of the issues go away?
post #1048 of 1497
Thread Starter 
Well, it was a fairly productive weekend. Got the front three a good portion of the way done. I have the back, sides, top and bottom all together on each. I have all 12 ports cut to length and the mdf for flares mounted to them. Just need to laminate the two baffles together and brace each cabinet now. Once I'm done with these, I am going to build four single 15 cabinets to aid in the quad 15 tests...might as well while I'm in carpenter mode biggrin.gif

Pics comin' up
post #1049 of 1497
JBL did it cause its a .5 woofer. Also, the SEOS 18 can't get to 500hz.
post #1050 of 1497
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

sometimes an example can help. this is the jbl everest. it uses a 0.5 woofer configuration with the second woofer rolling in to assist with the bass as is being contemplated in one version of this build.





the black line is the frequency response of the total system and the colored lines are for each driver.

what can be seen here is how the second woofer "rolls in". it has something like a second order low pass filter around 100 hz.

in the region where both of the woofers are playing together, the overall frequency response get about a +6db increase. in this case that occurs from about 80 hz down. above that point, the second woofer gently rolls out and only one woofer is playing through the lower midrange.

in the case of the seosr, LF1 = TD18, and LF2 = TD15M. the problem is that lf1 and lf2 are both playing the same spl in the 80hz region +/-. that is fine at lower volume. however, as the volume gets turned up, the td15m will run out excursion before the td18, so in some sense, there would be no point to using a td18 and a simple second td15m would suffice.

i was curious if somebody had thought of a way to create a smooth integration of the two woofers, but put a disproportionate weight on the td18 because it is the more capable driver in the mid bass region.

JBL was running the M2's in their sound room at CEDIA. They were very good. Smooth and powerful with lots of impact. JBL, said these sound and measure better than the Everest.
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