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S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 6

post #151 of 585
2/19/13 at 1:24pm
My suggestion is to downgrade surrounds from mega to big. I don't know what else would work with that orientation. That's a tricky one. What are Matt's thoughts? What's the current idea? Could we expand on an idea. Good luck.
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post #152 of 585
2/19/13 at 1:40pm
The current plan for the surrounds is the BMS coax/SEOS-24 with a single TD15M.

I would say the waveguide/woofer should be separate with the woofer enclosure slightly more narrow then the waveguide otherwise it may end up looking like this unless made very shallow: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/dcs/dcs_sc312.php
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post #153 of 585
2/19/13 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

My suggestion is to downgrade surrounds from mega to big. I don't know what else would work with that orientation. That's a tricky one. What are Matt's thoughts? What's the current idea? Could we expand on an idea. Good luck.

We down graded to a single woofer(TD15M) and the seos24 with bms 4594. my question is more based on dispersion and getting one set of side surrounds to fill the entire side surround field for three rows of seats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

The current plan for the surrounds is the BMS coax/SEOS-24 with a single TD15M.

I would say the waveguide/woofer should be separate with the woofer enclosure slightly more narrow then the waveguide otherwise it may end up looking like this unless made very shallow: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/dcs/dcs_sc312.php

I dont' mind it looking like that, I thought that woud be kind of what it would look like. Form factor will be what it wil be, as we have to accomidate the seos 24, so the width is goind to be there anyway. I could have done dual 12s with the 18sound horn or something like that, but wanted that perfect match. I figure at this point, my columns will be 12" deep and 25 or 26" wide. I can recess the cabs into the walls abit making the dpeth a few inches less, but that seos24 is always going to dictate the width.
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post #154 of 585
2/19/13 at 1:56pm
Well that's better with only one woofer. Coverage will still be a challenge, but should be to bad. It'll be more about where to put it. Right next to the guy in the second row on the side and he's gonna get an ear full. To bad there isn't a little more distance to work with. What's the width of the seating?
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post #155 of 585
2/19/13 at 2:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well that's better with only one woofer. Coverage will still be a challenge, but should be to bad. It'll be more about where to put it. Right next to the guy in the second row on the side and he's gonna get an ear full. To bad there isn't a little more distance to work with. What's the width of the seating?

The seating will be about 14' wide...5 seats curved. Even with a finshed room of 22'(if I can still make that change), it leaves 4 feet per side, minus the depth of the speaker. If I can recess half of it in the wall, then maybe 40" or so. Even going to straight rows only saves me 3" per side. I am almost wondering about trying to expand the width of the room a bit...they haven't poured it yet due to the weather, so I could I guess. I might be able to get to 4.5 ft on each side...

How far from the end seat of the second row do you think is optimal??

Do you think differently than Matt and I about the number of side surounds?? We figured multiple rows was cause more harm than help. What are your thoughts??
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post #156 of 585
2/19/13 at 2:37pm
I really don't know enough to say. My hunch is that you'd want to be far enough away that double the listening distance is equal to the distance from the listener on the end of the row to the speaker. For example, 14' wide row, speaker is 14' away from the end seat. So that's a 42' wide room. Otherwise the guy in the back left isn't gonna even hear the surround right. All while the guy in the middle right is going to have a surround right blowing out his ear drums, crushing the sound from the remaining speakers. But I really don't know what multiple surrounds would do cause I've never done it.
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post #157 of 585
2/19/13 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

So I have also been looking at some amp options and have one set that I like a lot...wondering what you guys think.

Looking at the Lab Gruppen C series amps.

Mains: Lab c48:4 for the mains woofer sections...up to 1200w x4 (obviously only need three of the channels..seems like a waster, but I really like the lab stuff). The other option, depending on how brave I want to be with excursion and the 48.4, is the 28:4, which will give each woofer section 700w. For the top sections ( 4594 coax), the Lab c10:4, which will give the CDs 250w each)

For the side and rear surrounds, the lab 28:4 will give 400w a piece.

All said and done, my local pro audio installer will give me a nice deal on the Lab stuff and I can be out the door with all three of these for about $6k.

Thoughts??

I can't speak for the C's but the FP10kQ clone sounds amazing full range, in the top 3 SQ amps I've ever listened to. It shouldn't disappoint.
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post #158 of 585
2/19/13 at 4:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I really don't know enough to say. My hunch is that you'd want to be far enough away that double the listening distance is equal to the distance from the listener on the end of the row to the speaker. For example, 14' wide row, speaker is 14' away from the end seat. So that's a 42' wide room. Otherwise the guy in the back left isn't gonna even hear the surround right. All while the guy in the middle right is going to have a surround right blowing out his ear drums, crushing the sound from the remaining speakers. But I really don't know what multiple surrounds would do cause I've never done it.

Ahhha. I guess the surrounds are going to have potential problems regardless. Is there any way that anyone sees that would make this work out?? I know there are a number of theaters on here with multiple rows..
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I can't speak for the C's but the FP10kQ clone sounds amazing full range, in the top 3 SQ amps I've ever listened to. It shouldn't disappoint.

Glad to hear you like them. I wish I could muster the nerve to take a chance on the clones
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post #159 of 585
2/19/13 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Ahhha. I guess the surrounds are going to have potential problems regardless. Is there any way that anyone sees that would make this work out?? I know there are a number of theaters on here with multiple rows..

Multiple rows of surrounds are a great idea, but you need to be able to implement delays independently to each row.

I saw that you mentioned having Erskine involved with your build...he is a big believer in using multiple rows of surrounds and should be able to get you sorted out.
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post #160 of 585
2/19/13 at 5:47pm
I just learned about a clever way to position side surrounds that I believe can do magic under right conditions.

I am not at all sure it would work in this situation, I could not find the basic room dimensions, etc. but I am tempted to throw it in anyway, so here it goes.

The side surround speakers are placed behind the listening area, perhaps along the back wall, depending on the room. The speakers are pointing toward the respective side walls in such a way that reflected sound covers the listening area. That's it. Think about the implications.
Edited by zheka - 2/19/13 at 5:59pm
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post #161 of 585
2/19/13 at 6:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

Multiple rows of surrounds are a great idea, but you need to be able to implement delays independently to each row.

I saw that you mentioned having Erskine involved with your build...he is a big believer in using multiple rows of surrounds and should be able to get you sorted out.

Yes sir, I am actually just reading another post of yours in a thread from last month that Dennis actually chimmed in on. I am going to finalize my deal with Dennis in the coming weeks, so I am sure he will help out bigtime!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I just learned about a clever way to position side surrounds that I believe can do magic under right conditions.

I am not at all sure it would work in this situation, I could not find the basic room dimensions, etc. but I am tempted to throw it in anyway, so here it goes.

The side surround speakers are placed behind the listening area, perhaps along the back wall, depending on the room. The speakers are pointing toward the respective side walls in such a way that reflected sound covers the listening area. That's it. Think about the implications.

Interesting idea, thanks for posting!
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post #162 of 585
2/19/13 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

Multiple rows of surrounds are a great idea, but you need to be able to implement delays independently to each row.


The Behringer Shark will handle delays with no problem, and they're cheap. They also have a build in feedback destroyer. Not sure why they aren't used more.

Mr. Chop, keep in mind that even in the big theaters, the surrounds aren't that crazy. The JBL's used a 3 way design with an 8" woofer. The QSC theater surrounds used a 10" Eminence woofer and a compression driver smaller than the B&C DE10.
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post #163 of 585
2/19/13 at 7:20pm
looks like it is about a hundred bucks for one channel of delay.

what would the shark be used for other than delay?
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post #164 of 585
2/19/13 at 7:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The Behringer Shark will handle delays with no problem, and they're cheap. They also have a build in feedback destroyer. Not sure why they aren't used more.

Mr. Chop, keep in mind that even in the big theaters, the surrounds aren't that crazy. The JBL's used a 3 way design with an 8" woofer. The QSC theater surrounds used a 10" Eminence woofer and a compression driver smaller than the B&C DE10.

Very cool, thank you.

I know I am going way out here, I am just so stuck on the matching waveguide/CD for the surrounds. I would love to think that I could run the Sentinels, and possibly more of them for surrounds,they are fantastic, but I can't get past this in my head. I have my woofers, CDs and waveguides on order, which I am happy about. By ordering everything I have pinned myself to committing to the project as a whole and not just the mains. We won't ever use the potential of the surrounds,I'm sure, but I will not ever wonder if I'm missing out on some minute improvement either. It's much less for the output and more for the matching of the mains.

I still wonder if there is a smaller waveguide that would allow me to use the lower freq ability of the 4594, and offer an easier to fit form for surrounds. Even with this though, I hate to think that I'd be giving up any performance by using a different waveguide, and just to save a little space. My columns are gonna be really big, but I am going to try to recess them into the outer wall framing enough that they are effectively a foot deep, but only stick out into the room 7 or 8 inches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

looks like it is about a hundred bucks for one channel of delay.

what would the shark be used for other than delay?

A hundred bones per channel for optimized surrounds sounds like a steal to me! I'm also currious what else the shark offers. I was looking at the QSC dsp322 and it appears that I can use them for all this, plus my active xovers etc. It seems like there are a lot of options out there, and the behringer seems to be viable too. I am trying to figure out exactly what, if anything, it may give up to a unit like the qsc...gonna keep reading
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post #165 of 585
2/19/13 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Yes sir, I am actually just reading another post of yours in a thread from last month that Dennis actually chimmed in on. I am going to finalize my deal with Dennis in the coming weeks, so I am sure he will help out bigtime!

You should run this by him before you purchase all of your drivers. wink.gif He knows his stuff. Which thread was that - was it surround-specific? I would like to use 2 or 3 rows of side surrounds and am still pondering options for my narrow room and trying to digest everything I can.
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post #166 of 585
2/19/13 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The Behringer Shark will handle delays with no problem, and they're cheap. They also have a build in feedback destroyer. Not sure why they aren't used more.

Mr. Chop, keep in mind that even in the big theaters, the surrounds aren't that crazy. The JBL's used a 3 way design with an 8" woofer. The QSC theater surrounds used a 10" Eminence woofer and a compression driver smaller than the B&C DE10.

Everybody's favorite Speaker Spanker! Getting your ass kicked by all those flat packs? biggrin.gif

That Behringer piece looks to be a 1x1 processor. You would have to stack them up like cord wood to pull off 3 rows of seating. The QSC 322/922 pieces are 8x8. Plus, it's highly desirable to have a very low and fixed latency across all channels...not sure you would get that with a $100 Berry processor. wink.gif

I agree with Erich on your surrounds...ESPECIALLY if you end up doing multiple rows. I do understand your thinking on wanting to match the BMS coax in your mains, but for surrounds, I'm totally sure you would be more than happy using 4550's and 10's/12's. But hey, what's 2 or 3 G's spent on surround 4594's over the 4550's in the grand scheme of things with this mega-build? smile.gif
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post #167 of 585
2/20/13 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

You should run this by him before you purchase all of your drivers. wink.gif He knows his stuff. Which thread was that - was it surround-specific? I would like to use 2 or 3 rows of side surrounds and am still pondering options for my narrow room and trying to digest everything I can.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455111/when-are-multiple-side-surrounds-necessary

Sorry, it was a diffrent Aaron, still a good read though
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

Everybody's favorite Speaker Spanker! Getting your ass kicked by all those flat packs? biggrin.gif

That Behringer piece looks to be a 1x1 processor. You would have to stack them up like cord wood to pull off 3 rows of seating. The QSC 322/922 pieces are 8x8. Plus, it's highly desirable to have a very low and fixed latency across all channels...not sure you would get that with a $100 Berry processor. wink.gif

I agree with Erich on your surrounds...ESPECIALLY if you end up doing multiple rows. I do understand your thinking on wanting to match the BMS coax in your mains, but for surrounds, I'm totally sure you would be more than happy using 4550's and 10's/12's. But hey, what's 2 or 3 G's spent on surround 4594's over the 4550's in the grand scheme of things with this mega-build? smile.gif

I know, I keep fighting myself here and wondering, it's driving me absolutely crazy eek.gif

It would save a load of $$ and make the columns so much easier to make/make look good. I even thought about using seos12s in the surrounds withthe DNA360s, I already have three of each of them. All in all...4x TD15M=$1000, 4x 4594=$2100 and 4x seos24 = $800. So that total is just about $4k. If I went the alternative route, I could do 5 of the TD15M woofers with seos12s and dna360 and save $2800 even after I buy the fourth dna and seos12. I wouuld stick with the 15s I think because if for some reason it didn't work out, I could just use them with the seos24/4594 combo. Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh
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post #168 of 585
2/20/13 at 6:33am
I don't think you would need the delay on all channels. Just the 2nd row surrounds towards the back. Wouldn't his normal processor take care of the other channels just fine?

Chop, I wouldn't feel too stuck with anything you've ordered. There are plenty of people to take the stuff off your hands if you use something different for surrounds.

We all know that you're never going to come remotely close to using the surrounds to even 25% of their capabilities. So I have an idea for you to think about.

Why not make your surrounds into something that others might be able to copy as for their L/C/R's? Like a SEOS-24 over two 12" woofers. Still way more than you need for surrounds......even in a big theater biggrin.gif


Good news, a pair of SEOS-24's will be ready for quick shipping on Monday. We should have them late next week.
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post #169 of 585
2/20/13 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455111/when-are-multiple-side-surrounds-necessary

Sorry, it was a diffrent Aaron, still a good read though
I know, I keep fighting myself here and wondering, it's driving me absolutely crazy eek.gif

It would save a load of $$ and make the columns so much easier to make/make look good. I even thought about using seos12s in the surrounds withthe DNA360s, I already have three of each of them. All in all...4x TD15M=$1000, 4x 4594=$2100 and 4x seos24 = $800. So that total is just about $4k. If I went the alternative route, I could do 5 of the TD15M woofers with seos12s and dna360 and save $2800 even after I buy the fourth dna and seos12. I wouuld stick with the 15s I think because if for some reason it didn't work out, I could just use them with the seos24/4594 combo. Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh

Why not use the SEOS-15 for surrounds if you feel it's needed? We could always change the Fusion-15 to a SEOS-15.

Seriously, the previous QSC surround model for large theaters used a 10" Eminence woofer and a 25 watt compression driver on a 6" wide horn.
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post #170 of 585
2/20/13 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455111/when-are-multiple-side-surrounds-necessary

Sorry, it was a diffrent Aaron, still a good read though
I know, I keep fighting myself here and wondering, it's driving me absolutely crazy eek.gif

It would save a load of $$ and make the columns so much easier to make/make look good. I even thought about using seos12s in the surrounds withthe DNA360s, I already have three of each of them. All in all...4x TD15M=$1000, 4x 4594=$2100 and 4x seos24 = $800. So that total is just about $4k. If I went the alternative route, I could do 5 of the TD15M woofers with seos12s and dna360 and save $2800 even after I buy the fourth dna and seos12. I wouuld stick with the 15s I think because if for some reason it didn't work out, I could just use them with the seos24/4594 combo. Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh
As far as CD's go the 4550 would be a great match to the 4594. Surrounds containing a SEOS 15/ 4550 W/TD15M would be an incredible speaker that gives up nothing especially for surrounds.There is a difference between overkill and too much overkill.smile.gif
I bet your head is hurting pondering over all these decisions.wink.gif
Things appear to be coming together very well.
Chris
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post #171 of 585
2/20/13 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

It would save a load of $$ and make the columns so much easier to make/make look good. I even thought about using seos12s in the surrounds withthe DNA360s, I already have three of each of them. All in all...4x TD15M=$1000, 4x 4594=$2100 and 4x seos24 = $800. So that total is just about $4k. If I went the alternative route, I could do 5 of the TD15M woofers with seos12s and dna360 and save $2800 even after I buy the fourth dna and seos12. I wouuld stick with the 15s I think because if for some reason it didn't work out, I could just use them with the seos24/4594 combo. Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh

The most efficient scenario is to use the Sentinels as surrounds as you know they will be far more than adequate. I know I'll be going that route when I upgrade my mains. I wouldn't worry as much about horn matching as I can almost guarantee you wouldn't be able to notice any issues. FWIW I have my SHO10s running out back and to be honest they FAR exceeded my expectations with just that 10" delta10 and the selenium horn. Spending 4K on surrounds is CRAZY IMO considering the amount of content that gets played through them. Plus you could sell your excess TD15 woofs to me and recoup the cost. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #172 of 585
2/20/13 at 7:51am
Before everyone sells him on a 12 or 15" waveguide crossed to a 15" woofer around 1khz, lets think about coverage. The beauty of the seos24 as a surround is the lower cutoff is going to be down around 500hz (we think). That'll offer a wide coverage pattern horizontally and vertically. His edge seating is only 4' away though.

I think the current plan is way over kill, but I don't think a 12" WG over a 15" woofer is a good one either, IMO. How about a 15" WG crossed over at 900hz to a pair of 8" woofers or a 10". Do the multi surround thing with delays or what ever, I dunno that stuff, but pack as much punch as you can into a few square feet. You only have 4' of distance to work with. I don't know what commercial theaters use, but if what Erich is saying is the state of practice, it goes to show there's something to keeping the sound source small when its a surround.
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post #173 of 585
2/20/13 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Before everyone sells him on a 12 or 15" waveguide crossed to a 15" woofer around 1khz, lets think about coverage. The beauty of the seos24 as a surround is the lower cutoff is going to be down around 500hz (we think). That'll offer a wide coverage pattern horizontally and vertically. His edge seating is only 4' away though.

I think the current plan is way over kill, but I don't think a 12" WG over a 15" woofer is a good one either, IMO. How about a 15" WG crossed over at 900hz to a pair of 8" woofers or a 10". Do the multi surround thing with delays or what ever, I dunno that stuff, but pack as much punch as you can into a few square feet. You only have 4' of distance to work with. I don't know what commercial theaters use, but if what Erich is saying is the state of practice, it goes to show there's something to keeping the sound source small when its a surround.

Tux - I hear you, but being that distance is so close, how much is the added dispersion coverage going to add to the experience? Also considering he already has 3 of the sent's build, you know?

I can see that we're reaching for the upper 2% here, so I suppose only the finest will do. biggrin.gif
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post #174 of 585
2/20/13 at 8:01am
Where are you getting the 4594 for that cheap ? Every price I have found is $1000+ each.
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post #175 of 585
2/20/13 at 8:03am
Well it'll really depend on the speaker position relative to the listener's ear from that distance. The listener could easily be sitting in a null and the experience would be poor, relative to the quality of the rest of the system. Likely to go undetected by a lay person who's enjoying the film as they should. So if Chop Shop doesn't really care because he'll be in the middle, well then I'd say go for it. As I've said before though, mind the ceiling reflection.
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post #176 of 585
2/20/13 at 9:22am
I think there are a few reasons commercial theaters use small surrounds ad it has little to do with acoustics. Smaller surrounds are cheaper, this is especially important when they use 10-18+ of them, the cost can easily become just as much as the mains. Smaller speakers are easier to hang and protrude less then larger ones. Many small speakers also give more even coverage then few large ones.

If going with something other then the SEOS-24/BMS coax I too think the 4550 with a SEOS-15/18 and the TD15M crossed really low 700-800hz if possible would be the next best thing. But then multiple smaller woofers would work too, however that costs more and AE does not have an 8" to match the TD15M. I know Jake would want matching woofers/CD's even though they might be noticeable.
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post #177 of 585
2/20/13 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I wanted to throw this piece out there too....Matt and I have been discussing it, and really feel that multiple rows of side surrounds will effect the sound field in a negativ way. I am going to build one set of side srruonds for now, but have three rows of seating, with just over 7feet beween them each. Does anyone have solutions for for a situation like this, keeping in mind that I will be building these seos24/TD15 surrounds for rear and sides??
we thought simply mounting them a bit higher and angling down toward the lp might help.

I'm not sure what all the concern is about, nor how the smaller horns would really help any other than maybe making them 1' shallower? The horn coverage angle is similar on all of these, right? The whole beauty of using speakers with some directivity for surrounds is that you can raise the height such that the near seat is at the edge of the coverage pattern or even just out of it, and leave the far seats nearly on axis. You would plan similarly for a smaller horn.

For 3 rows I would consider 6 total surrounds, 4 for sure with 1 per side just behind the primary seat and 2 on the rear wall.

There are many different options for breaking out 2 channels of delay. As soon as you need 4 output channels, its much cheaper to get a single unit. Even a MiniDSP would do the trick, or something like a DCX-2496 or similar speaker processor. It might be preferred to have something with 4 input channels to allow all 4 surround channels to run through the same processing outputting the 6 channels.
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post #178 of 585
2/20/13 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I'm not sure what all the concern is about, nor how the smaller horns would really help any other than maybe making them 1' shallower? The horn coverage angle is similar on all of these, right? The whole beauty of using speakers with some directivity for surrounds is that you can raise the height such that the near seat is at the edge of the coverage pattern or even just out of it, and leave the far seats nearly on axis. You would plan similarly for a smaller horn.

For 3 rows I would consider 6 total surrounds, 4 for sure with 1 per side just behind the primary seat and 2 on the rear wall.

There are many different options for breaking out 2 channels of delay. As soon as you need 4 output channels, its much cheaper to get a single unit. Even a MiniDSP would do the trick, or something like a DCX-2496 or similar speaker processor. It might be preferred to have something with 4 input channels to allow all 4 surround channels to run through the same processing outputting the 6 channels.

I was thinking the same thing. The only issue with the large surrounds IMO is the depth and price. If anything the larger horn covering a wider range of frequencies would work better at close distances.

I also agree that it would be best to use these higher on the walls with the horns angled down so everyone is covered. This might be easier though with a shallower, smaller horn. For my room, I use coax's because it works best given my room shape and seating.
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post #179 of 585
2/20/13 at 11:53am
But he was asking about reducing the number of surrounds. If only one pair of surround, you don't think there will be uneven SPL near the edges of the seating? Maybe we need a diagram or something. I think multiple surround is likely the way to go if there's a reasonable way to implement them.
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post #180 of 585
2/20/13 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

But he was asking about reducing the number of surrounds. If only one pair of surround, you don't think there will be uneven SPL near the edges of the seating? Maybe we need a diagram or something. I think multiple surround is likely the way to go if there's a reasonable way to implement them.

Unless I missed it I haven't seen a mockup of the room and potential surround placement. I've honestly never dealt with multiple sets of side surrounds so I don't know what how it would work. I think this is getting into the realm where you have to have some experience with it. I'd guess guys like Seaton or Erskine would be helpful.

For instance, I'm not exactly certain what the delays would look like. I also don't know exactly what kind of dispersion you would want with a speaker at each row.

Getting surrounds right on a build of this degree is probably the hardest part. Of course if the surrounds were 12ft away it would be easy, but then we would be talking about a small commercial theater. smile.gif
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