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S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 2

post #31 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Have you considered 18" woofers? Possibly in an MTM arrangement.

I have..we actually started with 18's in mind. My only concern is that I want to cross as low as possible from teh CD, but worry about going too low. I know that 400-500hz will be ok, but if I ran into a situation where it worked out better to cross a bit higher, I worry that the 18s may not let me. If I went up to the 600-700 range, couldn't I run into issues?? Matt felt the 18s would be ok, but I kind of figured the 15s in duals would kill, so why take the chance. I can still be convinvced biggrin.gif. If Matt, you and other who have design plenty of builds, feel this would work with 18s, why the heck not. In the end, I will more than likely end up letting the CD run down low enough that it won't matter anyway. If for some reason it worked out funky, I could just grab some 15s, rework the box and start fresh with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Planning on building some big speakers, eh?

smile.gif

Not as big as what you have going I hear..
post #32 of 1496
Want to cross low? Consider Wayne Parham's midhorn kit.

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=16581&prevloaded=1&&start=0

Sure will makes things easy on you. You can cross these guys pretty low. Realistically ~200-300hz. That makes choosing your bottom end simple. This can be used up pretty high too making choosing your HF section easy.

This component alone really rounded out my uber build design. I wish more people would consider using it. It's not very expensive at all!
post #33 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Hey Tux, what advantage do you feel the mtm arrangement would have in this particular build?? I assume the mtm would have better verticle dispersoion, but with a waveguide as tall as the seos24, and the low crossover, is that the only benefit? I thought the two woofers side by side under the waveguid would make the ctc much easier. As you know, I am still learning a great deal and appreciate all the help anyone has to offer. I know Matt has talked to me about a few of these things and he knows far more about design than I do, as do you. Matt also expressed his openness to having others with experience chime in with their perspectives too. I have to admit, the idea of dual 18s and that SEOS24 has me going
post #34 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Want to cross low? Consider Wayne Parham's midhorn kit.

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=16581&prevloaded=1&&start=0

Sure will makes things easy on you. You can cross these guys pretty low. Realistically ~200-300hz. That makes choosing your bottom end simple. This can be used up pretty high too making choosing your HF section easy.

This component alone really rounded out my uber build design. I wish more people would consider using it. It's not very expensive at all!

That's pretty neat! Is there a build thread for your project?? I'd like to see it, heard great things!

I would not say I'd count anything out at this point, but I'm kinda stuck on these BMS CDs.
post #35 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Thank you for the link sir. The plan is to have Matt build the best possible passive for them and see how I do with active too. I like the idea of plug and play once the passives are done, but I'm sure I will get the hang of the active bit over time and be able to get great results that way too.
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the point in spending potentially lots of dollars on a passive set up, them trying active. Waste of time and money doing the passive.
Edited by A9X-308 - 2/9/13 at 10:43pm
post #36 of 1496
Back to 18's now huh?

I think at one point we had talked about doing an MTM with them. The thing that had me worried was the CTC distance between woofers which would 36-40", I am not sure if that would cause lobbing issues. Though now that I think about it more, at 400hz the wavelength is ~34" so nulls would occur at a little above 40 degrees above and below axis. That should be fine.

The plan I had with the TWW with side by side woofers just maximizes both the horizontal and vertical dispersion. With two 12/15" woofers below is should also be a close directivity match to the SEOS-24. I always liked the dual 18" route though biggrin.gif

Hmm now I wonder how a Synergy horn would do with the BMS coax loaded on the back. It would allow for a much lower crossover point and mid ports could then be moved out well away from the throat were they cause reflection trouble. You might even be able to get away with something like 4- 8"/10" woofers playing 400/500hz down to the subwoofer crossover at 60-80hz.
post #37 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Hmm now I wonder how a Synergy horn would do with the BMS coax loaded on the back.
I asked Tom this on another forum some years ago, and IIRC, his main objection was the directivity above 8-10K would not be as well controlled because of the 2" throat and so didn't recommend it. I have 4590 and wanted to use them in this way.
I may have his notes saved somewhere or a URL. I'll see if I can find it.
post #38 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Want to cross low? Consider Wayne Parham's midhorn kit.

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=16581&prevloaded=1&&start=0

Sure will makes things easy on you. You can cross these guys pretty low. Realistically ~200-300hz. That makes choosing your bottom end simple. This can be used up pretty high too making choosing your HF section easy.

This component alone really rounded out my uber build design. I wish more people would consider using it. It's not very expensive at all!

Off topic for just a minute. Have you started your builds yet? I'm not on here as much since have had my theater in watching/listening condition like I used to be. I have a 90% complete room and just have no motivation to move forward with the fabric and treatments.

Now!, these speakers are going to make my $10k+ JTRs sound like someone on the golf course whispering! Will be awesome!
post #39 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Off topic for just a minute. Have you started your builds yet? I'm not on here as much since have had my theater in watching/listening condition like I used to be. I have a 90% complete room and just have no motivation to move forward with the fabric and treatments.

Now!, these speakers are going to make my $10k+ JTRs sound like someone on the golf course whispering! Will be awesome!


Lol!!!

Sigh...

I took this picture, just now, just for you.... and everyone else I've been annoying for taking WAY TOO long to build these damn things.



The only thing left is to finish the midhorns, build the sealed subs and.... install. Basically. There are a lot of little things to get done. Waiting on my tax refund to buy the very last (for real this time) parts and that's it. Should be installed (yes, for real REAL this time. I promise) soon. Predicting a late winter/early spring install date.
post #40 of 1496
Let me see if I got this straight, Chop Shop, you are planning to do this as a 2-way with the Seos-24 going down to 400hz and up to 20khz using the BMS-4594 coaxial compression driver crossed over to a yet to be determined set of woofers, right?

After readings that link above about Wayne's mid-range horn that goes down to 200hz and up to 1,200hz, I am now pondering a 3-way design using those mid-horns and some various mid-range drivers and tweeters and tweeter horns, all crossed over to the JBL-2226j's. I wonder what compression driver would work well as a mid-range driver in that horn that Wayne designed?
post #41 of 1496
Chop
LCR = BMS 4594 + SEOS 24 + 2 x AE TD15X or M x 3
SS RS = BMS 4594 + SEOS 24 = AE TD15X or M x 6
or
SS RS = BMS 4594 + SEOS 24 + 2 x AE TD12X OR M x 6
SUBS = LMS Ultra 5400 x 2 Dual opposed x 4

The Speaker power 4000 wpc x 2 amp would work great with the subs but you would need two.
I saw a picture someone posted of a 2008 concert in Wisconsin using the AE 15's + BMS CD in this configuration with the ports located on the 4 corners like HSU subwoofers. Someone could probably lfind the link to it. This system would fill a room bigger than yours with 12" ceilings.
Just 2 cents and a dream.
Chris
post #42 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Back to 18's now huh?

I think at one point we had talked about doing an MTM with them. The thing that had me worried was the CTC distance between woofers which would 36-40", I am not sure if that would cause lobbing issues. Though now that I think about it more, at 400hz the wavelength is ~34" so nulls would occur at a little above 40 degrees above and below axis. That should be fine.

The plan I had with the TWW with side by side woofers just maximizes both the horizontal and vertical dispersion. With two 12/15" woofers below is should also be a close directivity match to the SEOS-24. I always liked the dual 18" route though biggrin.gif

Hmm now I wonder how a Synergy horn would do with the BMS coax loaded on the back. It would allow for a much lower crossover point and mid ports could then be moved out well away from the throat were they cause reflection trouble. You might even be able to get away with something like 4- 8"/10" woofers playing 400/500hz down to the subwoofer crossover at 60-80hz.

Hahahaha...yeah, the 18s seem to keep showing up biggrin.gif. I can acomidate either configuration, horizontal woofers under the wave, or the verticle MTM. I would like to stay with this vs Synergy horn though. If the dual 15s and dual 12s below has a better chance of optimal sound, the "safe bet", I am ok with 15s...in the end, the dual 12s in the surrounds will be under the waveguide regardless. If you feel the 18s will be something we can make work just as well and give us more outuput, then game on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Let me see if I got this straight, Chop Shop, you are planning to do this as a 2-way with the Seos-24 going down to 400hz and up to 20khz using the BMS-4594 coaxial compression driver crossed over to a yet to be determined set of woofers, right?

After readings that link above about Wayne's mid-range horn that goes down to 200hz and up to 1,200hz, I am now pondering a 3-way design using those mid-horns and some various mid-range drivers and tweeters and tweeter horns, all crossed over to the JBL-2226j's. I wonder what compression driver would work well as a mid-range driver in that horn that Wayne designed?

Three way design..the 4594 is a coaxial and I will cross down to 400 potentially, woofers handeling from there on down.
post #43 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the point in spending potentially lots of dollars on a passive set up, them trying active. Waste of time and money doing the passive.

For me, my ability is not what Matt, and others is. If I have passives, I can run them, enjoy them and tinker when I can. I guess I'm just feeling natural aprehension about getting everything right onmy end. I guess if Matt has active settings, I can mirror those. I am certainly willing to listen to opinions on options.
post #44 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Chop
LCR = BMS 4594 + SEOS 24 + 2 x AE TD15X or M x 3
SS RS = BMS 4594 + SEOS 24 = AE TD15X or M x 6
or
SS RS = BMS 4594 + SEOS 24 + 2 x AE TD12X OR M x 6
SUBS = LMS Ultra 5400 x 2 Dual opposed x 4

The Speaker power 4000 wpc x 2 amp would work great with the subs but you would need two.
I saw a picture someone posted of a 2008 concert in Wisconsin using the AE 15's + BMS CD in this configuration with the ports located on the 4 corners like HSU subwoofers. Someone could probably lfind the link to it. This system would fill a room bigger than yours with 12" ceilings.
Just 2 cents and a dream.
Chris

Those all look similar to the plan, with the subs being an exception. I already have 10 Dayton 18s...two for my family room and 8 for the theater...thinking about 8 more. The 4594 all around has been the plan all along, with the seos24. The woofer sizes and choice have been variable though. I like the thought of AE and have been on the phone with John a bit this weekend. The surrounds won't need a 15, and the width of the seos24 just makes it too perfect to have dual 12s biggrin.gif

16 daytons and 20kw has me above 140db all the way down to 30hz, low 130s at 20hz and low 120s at 10hz...should even stay above 110db to 5hz. This is all in modeling of course, as I haven't been able to test the full sub system, nor do any sub testing in the room, only in my temp space.

As far as power, I really like the CV5000s that I have and was thinking of using them all around...four of them to power 16 subs, one for each of the mains and one for every two surrounds. Again, I am open to suggestions on all of this , I have just found this to be a fitting combo so far. It gives 2500w to each main, 1250 to each surround and 1250 to each Dayton. Not sure how they are for the mains/surrounds though. I have them running my sentinels now and they seem to do the job.
post #45 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The surrounds won't need a 15, and the width of the seos24 just makes it too perfect to have dual 12s biggrin.gif

If you guys come up with the SEOS-24 over dual 12's or 15's, that would be interesting. Of course way too expensive for many folks, including myself. But still really neat. biggrin.gif

I'll get the baffles cut when the parts arrive!
post #46 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If you guys come up with the SEOS-24 over dual 12's or 15's, that would be interesting. Of course way too expensive for many folks, including myself. But still really neat. biggrin.gif

I'll get the baffles cut when the parts arrive!

Saweeeet! The surrounds will be dual 12s under the seos24 for sure at this point. The mains, we had dual 15s under the SEOS24 and have been discussing the dual 18s as well, either orientation. I am just waiting on input form Matt and others on the orientation. I guess it won't really matter, as Tux said via pm, we can build two equal enclosures for the woofers and experiment with the orientations...probably the best way to ensure a great result. Its really two very manageable enclosures for the woofs to experiment.
post #47 of 1496
The advantage of MTM is you can use an 18" which has narrower directivity than a 15" (although side by side 15"ers have an advantage that way also). But from 80hz to 500hz, one of the biggest sound impediments is floor bounce and also celing bounce. If MTM you then put one of the woofers close to the floor and one mid way between ceiling and floor. Think along the kings of multi subwoofer room smoothing. If both woofers are say 15" off the floor, you'll surely have a floor sickout somewhere around 250hz. Put another woofer at 40" off the floor and it'll fill that in. Same for the ceiling. The side wall reflections can be better managed with acoustic damping, but not very practical on the floor. Plus you get the fire power of 18s. I'm not certain this is the direction you want to go though because side by side 18s could cause horizontal loving which is bad.

Anyone know how low the seos24 holds directivity? If it holds is well down to say 500hz (a bit unlikely) then the vertical directivity of the MTM would match also.

15s really are just fine also. And like discussed, put them in separate boxes and experiments.

You guys should also drag Coctostan into this. He doesn't post as much as he used to, but he showed up in the bms group buy thread. And he's got a really good grasp on this stuff. He's also heard more mega builds like this than I have.

I have a couple 15s sitting in my shop I've been wanting to play with. To bad it's not nicer out or I'd drag them out and experiment with spacing and see where the loves occur. Of course they're not the bms woofers, but might offer some insight. You can also simulate the various responses in PCD and see what would happen. Jeff Bagby also has anoth room response modeler that could be used also.
post #48 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The advantage of MTM is you can use an 18" which has narrower directivity than a 15" (although side by side 15"ers have an advantage that way also). But from 80hz to 500hz, one of the biggest sound impediments is floor bounce and also celing bounce. If MTM you then put one of the woofers close to the floor and one mid way between ceiling and floor. Think along the kings of multi subwoofer room smoothing. If both woofers are say 15" off the floor, you'll surely have a floor sickout somewhere around 250hz. Put another woofer at 40" off the floor and it'll fill that in. Same for the ceiling. The side wall reflections can be better managed with acoustic damping, but not very practical on the floor. Plus you get the fire power of 18s. I'm not certain this is the direction you want to go though because side by side 18s could cause horizontal loving which is bad.

Anyone know how low the seos24 holds directivity? If it holds is well down to say 500hz (a bit unlikely) then the vertical directivity of the MTM would match also.

15s really are just fine also. And like discussed, put them in separate boxes and experiments.

You guys should also drag Coctostan into this. He doesn't post as much as he used to, but he showed up in the bms group buy thread. And he's got a really good grasp on this stuff. He's also heard more mega builds like this than I have.

I have a couple 15s sitting in my shop I've been wanting to play with. To bad it's not nicer out or I'd drag them out and experiment with spacing and see where the loves occur. Of course they're not the bms woofers, but might offer some insight. You can also simulate the various responses in PCD and see what would happen. Jeff Bagby also has anoth room response modeler that could be used also.


What is so bad about horizontal loving? You must prefer vertical. biggrin.giftongue.gifwink.gif



See something I overlooked/forget about. Yeah the with that wide a woofer spacing MTM would work great for the purpose of smoothing out ceiling/floor reflection notches.
post #49 of 1496
But dual 15s may work better side by side than any gains from an MTM. The horizontal direction is more important...
post #50 of 1496
Thread Starter 
The seos 24 claims to hold to just that, 500hz. It leaves options I guess. I love the idea of the gain in output form the dual 18s, but don't want us to bite off something that becomes really tough to get right. I'm sure dual 15s will provide crazy output. My modeling shows dual 15s of any should be capable of high 120s db each.

What is the "horizontal love" you are saying is bad in the dual 18 side by side?? Matt seems to wonder the same thing, I think.. I notice your last post eluding to the dual 15 side by side have some great advantages. I think you guys are correct that two individual woof enclosures are best for testing, I just want to be sure I buy the right size woofers, cause after this build I might not even be able to buy any blu rays to play for a while biggrin.gif
post #51 of 1496
Oops! Love = lobe. I said loving but meant lobing. The v is next to the b redface.gif

I'd go with 15s based on what I'm hearing. The 18s have directivity lower in frequency, higher output, lower bass, and look better as a single under a seos24, BUT, they cost more and limit your options to much. I don't think you'd want to go with side by side 18s unless you .5 it. Might have to do that with the 15s to though. Matt should check it out in PCD to see where the upper usable limit of side by side 15s would be. Depending on the listening angles, I'm thinking about 500hz so it'll be close.

Someone just posted in the SEOS thread that the Everest is a .5 woofer.
post #52 of 1496
Hi Chop, I have put a little more thought into things and picked Mark Seaton's brain a little. I think I have come up with a plan that can work well for everyone. I'll detail that to you later on as soon as I finalize my thoughts a little.

Here are some images of the MTM design that used a pair of TD15M and the XT1464 horn with the BMS coax compression driver. I really do like the BMS coax. It is the best compression driver I have heard by far. Being a coax does present another passive crossover and getting that right is critical. The crossover that came with it just didn't work at all. We got 16ohm drivers instead of 8ohm, but the crossover was for the 8ohm so it wasn't even close.

Here is the image of the cabinet. This was very simple, made quickly and didn't factor in having nice grills or anything. They did a lot of shows though.



Elite's system was modular so they could bring in a lot of different things depending on the size and shape of the venue. It has some limitations but still worked well overall. In this image here the room was so wide they made 2 extra cabinets for side and center fills. The horns were turned to be only about 40 degrees wide to be more directional. This was for a 2 day metal festival at the Brown County Arena that had several thousand people there.



This was for an outdoor festival. Just the MTM's with the 2 TD15M's and the horns would cover an area of 1500 people outdoors very well. The single TD12M's with the XT1086 horns were used for center fill. The same system was used for full front of house for Saliva, Nonpoint, and other heavy rock bands at the Riverside Ballroom which I believe holds about the same number of people



Anyway, point being that these can get extremely loud and take a lot of abuse.

As far as the MTM alignment goes, It does have some benefit of keeping some of the sound off the floor and ceiling. The drivers will sum very well in the middle at the height of the waveguide. As you go up and down, the difference in time between the drivers will begin to give you some cancellation. We found that you have about 15-20 degrees height to work with on average. So +/- 7.5-10 degrees from the center. That is based on the center/center distance and the crossover point of 750hz used in these. Pushing the crossover lower helps to widen that a little. Even at +/- 10 degrees by a distance of 8ft from the speaker that is 32" of height to work with. At 16ft away that is 64". If the horns are centered at ear height with your front row, that should cover any range of seating, and a the back of the room easily cover sitting and standing height. The other benefit is that both drivers are the same distance from the waveguide then. So your time alignment would apply properly to both drivers.

In the real world though, whether you do MTM or TMM with the 2 woofers underneath can both work with a crossover about 500hz. If you were to go with a pair of TD15M's in about 10cf tuned around 55hz, you can get some serious output out of it. You can put in 1000W to the pair of drivers before running into excursion limits with about 133dB modeled at 70hz. This is what the Elite cabinets are tuned to. It actually gives a little boost from about 60-120hz that can be pulled down and F3 about 51Hz.

The interesting thing is that the TD18H's model nearly the same in that same enclosure. Efficiency is nearly the same with both. With similar tuning they can handle much more power without ever reaching excursion limits. This also leaves the option to tune significantly lower. You could even tune in the 30hz range and have a killer system to use without subs. The center to center distances are slightly farther you are really adding only about 4" between centers. The SEOS24 is creating most of the center to center distance, so that extra wouldn't be too critical. The TD18H is quite flat up to about 2KHz really as well so it is an option. The green curve is the TD15M, blue curve is the TD18H with same tuning and the white curve is tuned about 35hz.



John
post #53 of 1496
Chop
That is the design I was referring to earlier. I would love to see you perfect that design/crossover. Then I would love to copy it.
Thanks for posting those pictures John. I ordered 4 TD12x's yesterday and cant wait to turn them into rear channels,
Chris
post #54 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I said loving but meant lobing. The v is next to the b redface.gif

"Oops, sorry baby!" wink.gif

-Max
post #55 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Oops! Love = lobe. I said loving but meant lobing. The v is next to the b redface.gif

I'd go with 15s based on what I'm hearing. The 18s have directivity lower in frequency, higher output, lower bass, and look better as a single under a seos24, BUT, they cost more and limit your options to much. I don't think you'd want to go with side by side 18s unless you .5 it. Might have to do that with the 15s to though. Matt should check it out in PCD to see where the upper usable limit of side by side 15s would be. Depending on the listening angles, I'm thinking about 500hz so it'll be close.

Someone just posted in the SEOS thread that the Everest is a .5 woofer.

Ah ha...thanks, that really sent me off...I wasn't even thinking lobe tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Hi Chop, I have put a little more thought into things and picked Mark Seaton's brain a little. I think I have come up with a plan that can work well for everyone. I'll detail that to you later on as soon as I finalize my thoughts a little.

Here are some images of the MTM design that used a pair of TD15M and the XT1464 horn with the BMS coax compression driver. I really do like the BMS coax. It is the best compression driver I have heard by far. Being a coax does present another passive crossover and getting that right is critical. The crossover that came with it just didn't work at all. We got 16ohm drivers instead of 8ohm, but the crossover was for the 8ohm so it wasn't even close.

Here is the image of the cabinet. This was very simple, made quickly and didn't factor in having nice grills or anything. They did a lot of shows though.



Elite's system was modular so they could bring in a lot of different things depending on the size and shape of the venue. It has some limitations but still worked well overall. In this image here the room was so wide they made 2 extra cabinets for side and center fills. The horns were turned to be only about 40 degrees wide to be more directional. This was for a 2 day metal festival at the Brown County Arena that had several thousand people there.



This was for an outdoor festival. Just the MTM's with the 2 TD15M's and the horns would cover an area of 1500 people outdoors very well. The single TD12M's with the XT1086 horns were used for center fill. The same system was used for full front of house for Saliva, Nonpoint, and other heavy rock bands at the Riverside Ballroom which I believe holds about the same number of people



Anyway, point being that these can get extremely loud and take a lot of abuse.

As far as the MTM alignment goes, It does have some benefit of keeping some of the sound off the floor and ceiling. The drivers will sum very well in the middle at the height of the waveguide. As you go up and down, the difference in time between the drivers will begin to give you some cancellation. We found that you have about 15-20 degrees height to work with on average. So +/- 7.5-10 degrees from the center. That is based on the center/center distance and the crossover point of 750hz used in these. Pushing the crossover lower helps to widen that a little. Even at +/- 10 degrees by a distance of 8ft from the speaker that is 32" of height to work with. At 16ft away that is 64". If the horns are centered at ear height with your front row, that should cover any range of seating, and a the back of the room easily cover sitting and standing height. The other benefit is that both drivers are the same distance from the waveguide then. So your time alignment would apply properly to both drivers.

In the real world though, whether you do MTM or TMM with the 2 woofers underneath can both work with a crossover about 500hz. If you were to go with a pair of TD15M's in about 10cf tuned around 55hz, you can get some serious output out of it. You can put in 1000W to the pair of drivers before running into excursion limits with about 133dB modeled at 70hz. This is what the Elite cabinets are tuned to. It actually gives a little boost from about 60-120hz that can be pulled down and F3 about 51Hz.

The interesting thing is that the TD18H's model nearly the same in that same enclosure. Efficiency is nearly the same with both. With similar tuning they can handle much more power without ever reaching excursion limits. This also leaves the option to tune significantly lower. You could even tune in the 30hz range and have a killer system to use without subs. The center to center distances are slightly farther you are really adding only about 4" between centers. The SEOS24 is creating most of the center to center distance, so that extra wouldn't be too critical. The TD18H is quite flat up to about 2KHz really as well so it is an option. The green curve is the TD15M, blue curve is the TD18H with same tuning and the white curve is tuned about 35hz.



John

Thanks John! I have been modeling again all day today, and it's made me come to two conclusion...1. I will be using AE woofs, as they seem to give up nothing in output, and have been said to be the "cleanest" . 2. I have come no closer to a decision on 15s vs 18s biggrin.gif The TD15M really do model nicely with the specs given! The "safety factor" in the 18s might be worth it in a situation where I would be running at 130db consistently, but I just can't see it for prolonged periods, and if the same holds true with the 15m as other "pro style" woofers, just hitting xmax shouldn't be a problem, and it doesn't really exceed xmax much anywhere in this model.

I would love to have imposing mains with giant 18s, just don't want to paint ourselves into a corner. I actaully wanted to ask you guys about the baffle width in comparison to the woofer size. The seos24 is just over 24", so I figure the baffle will be at least 25.5". With an MTM with 18s, that leaves just over 3"s per side next to the woofers, but with 15s it would leave a little over 5"...for the surrounds, we're talking almost 7"! What concerns should I have with regard to how wide is acceptable in this situation?? It seems as though this would be ok with the range we are talking, but I'm not expert on BSC.

Thanks John, for the time and for reaching out to Mark. I am hoping to have the parts here, the bins made and bring the components to the GTG at Andrew's (Gorilla) in April to possibly fiddle with a bit and hand over to Matt for xover design. Mark is planning to be there I think, so its very cool that he has been made aware of teh project too! It's a long ride, but I'm sure Andrew would welcome you there too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Chop
That is the design I was referring to earlier. I would love to see you perfect that design/crossover. Then I would love to copy it.
Thanks for posting those pictures John. I ordered 4 TD12x's yesterday and cant wait to turn them into rear channels,
Chris

Yeah, it looks pretty mean! I will be happy to share all the details for you!

Congrats on the purchase, TD12x's will make a great addition for rears, I'm sure
Edited by ChopShop1 - 2/10/13 at 4:37pm
post #56 of 1496
Awesome Chop! Get it!!!!
post #57 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Awesome Chop! Get it!!!!

Yeah buddy!

Thinking out loud here in regard to the baffle sizes. From the research I have done an my low ability to learn it all very quickly I am coming up with a generalized understanding. That generalized understanding has me thinking that because the woofers won't be playing very high in the spectrum, it shouldn't have much negative affect...Am I understanding correctly??
post #58 of 1496
Won't these be IB? I thought you said the front was going to be a false wall. Maybe a sketch of the theatre would help guide recommendations.

Either way, the baffle size won't matter much. If MTM, the 18s will fit better visually. All the baffle size really matters for is aesthetics. At this size, baffle step is nearly a non-issue. Build the size that works for you.
post #59 of 1496
I have been playing around with the woofer arrangement in PCD:

Two 12” woofers below the SEOS-24 should work great with a crossover 400-500hz where they have a -6 at about 40-50 degrees of axis. That should be a really good match with the SEOS-24.
Two 15” woofers will be about -6dB at +- 25 degrees with a 500hz crossover and -6dB at +- 40 degrees with a 400hz crossover, that is a little narrower but should be workable.
18’s should not be used horizontal below the waveguide as the lobing will be too narrow.

In an MTM arraignment with dual 18’s you should see a vertical window of about +- 12-13 degrees with a 500hz crossover and +- 16-18 degrees with a 400hz crossover. That is using a woofer CTC of 92mm or about 3’. The window just gets wider with the smaller woofers but I think they start to look a little too small with just one sitting on either side of the massive SEOS-24.
Edited by mtg90 - 2/10/13 at 8:36pm
post #60 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Won't these be IB? I thought you said the front was going to be a false wall. Maybe a sketch of the theatre would help guide recommendations.

Either way, the baffle size won't matter much. If MTM, the 18s will fit better visually. All the baffle size really matters for is aesthetics. At this size, baffle step is nearly a non-issue. Build the size that works for you.

It will be a false for the screen..thats it. These will be in enclosure behind the screen. I don't have the sketches yet, waiting to finish things up with Dennis once the contractor finishes the corregated decking above and I have the exact height dimensions. The screen will have close to three feet of open space behind it to place the mains, subs, etc. The aesthetics don't matter to me a whole lot, I am all about function over form and just want to build what will perform the best. Glad to confirm that I understood my reading on baffle step, I guess I'm not hopeless after all biggrin.gif
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