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S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 14

post #391 of 1502
^ I will be inviting myself up when that goes down. biggrin.gif
post #392 of 1502
If I ever needed to an excuse to move back East, this would be it. biggrin.gif
post #393 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

^ I will be inviting myself up when that goes down. biggrin.gif

No need Andrew, your invite is out there to come up whenever...and if you wanna help put a screen together with me, that's ok too biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

If I ever needed to an excuse to move back East, this would be it. biggrin.gif

At least a road trip to demo.

I would really like to plan a GTG once they are done and get Mark and Jeff to come out and demo stuff in my room for everyone at the unveiling of the SEOSR's. Mark will be coming out to help me tweak the room, so it would probably work out well. It will be neat to hear these next to the CATS and Noesis when they're done.
post #394 of 1502
Hopefully the demo will be after I move back to Maryland this summer. I would love to hear your system. I have 4 Pi speakers (with JBL/B&C upgrades) but they will be like toys compared to your system. I missed what subs, if any, you will be using. I recall several months ago you were thinking PSA's.

This should be fun to watch!
post #395 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

Hopefully the demo will be after I move back to Maryland this summer. I would love to hear your system. I have 4 Pi speakers (with JBL/B&C upgrades) but they will be like toys compared to your system. I missed what subs, if any, you will be using. I recall several months ago you were thinking PSA's.

This should be fun to watch!

I figure it to be about 3 or 4 months by the time we get the room done, the speakers get tweaked and it's all ready for demos...I will probably try to run a couple of events too.

I was going to put some PSA's in my famliy room, but have gone diy there two. The theater will have between 8 and 16 ....aaaww who I am kidding, I have 16 so 16 Dayton 18s will be in there. I am going to play with placement for sure, but maybe something like 8 behind the screen, 2 on each sidewall and four in the back. I have a couple of CV5k amps, ultimately, I think it will be four of those for a total of 20kwatts.
post #396 of 1502
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

A build like this shouldn't be an "assemble and plug it in" kind of kit. It's to big and complex that it requires integration with the room. Your active settings would not work for anyone except you. If someone wants dsp settings for the same thing in their room, they would have to measure their room. (Talking about the woofer to mid cross over assumed to be around 500hz). Also, at this league, everyone is going to have a different take on fitting it to their room. In the corner, away from boundaries. False wall continuous baffle, etc.

The idea of 2x12 under a seos24 would be doable no problem. Still though, some appreciation for the room would be required in any dsp settings below ~300hz.

I'm with Tux that there isn't much point to making a complete kit at this level. IMO this is a prime spot for an active DSP/passive hybrid setup. Someone could establish a good passive for the BMS coax and SEOS-24 portion, then people could add whatever woofer setup they want and cross that with active DSP. At these price points DSP makes sense IMO plus with a speaker this large, it should be integrated into the room. Of course this means the builder will need to be able to take measurements and setup the DSP. The hardest part will already be done though with the coax crossover.
post #397 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'm with Tux that there isn't much point to making a complete kit at this level. IMO this is a prime spot for an active DSP/passive hybrid setup. Someone could establish a good passive for the BMS coax and SEOS-24 portion, then people could add whatever woofer setup they want and cross that with active DSP. At these price points DSP makes sense IMO plus with a speaker this large, it should be integrated into the room. Of course this means the builder will need to be able to take measurements and setup the DSP. The hardest part will already be done though with the coax crossover.

I agree with you both completely. I think between Mark and I, we are still tinkering with the idea of active vs passive for the coax too. He seems to feel like there will be some benefits to active on it. If there turn out to bve in testing, and it's a small (relatively or course) cost difference in dsp/amps, then I will. The dsp will be the biggest thing there. I like the idea of full active based on my conversation with Mark though.
post #398 of 1502
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The pallet hasn't arrived yet, so I don't know how much they weigh.


Chop, My main goal with a design is to use two 12" woofers under a single SEOS-24. Your design sounds interesting. Hopefully you can also get the passive crossover figured out as well. I'm not sure I understand the reason for four 15's, but should be neat to see a crazy man at work. biggrin.gif

I think your plan is a great one. It will be replicable, and probably have more output and finese than 90% of people will ever want.

Mark is the one who convinced me to go with four again, and in a sealed alignment, for the ability to extend really low with high output. I REALLY, REALLY enjoyed the CAt12s running full range with no subs. Basically, he suggested that four 15s could provide that and then some...room dependant of course, as I will be trying to fill a big space. I think they will prove very usefull for BluRay concert party nights. Plus, 4 15s in the mains was just interesting enough to get Mark to want to be involved biggrin.gif

Hi Chop', it was great to finally meet the man behind much of the madness here! cool.gif

Thank you again for the compliments on the Catalyst 12Cs. I do think it's important to remember that while many seem to imply that Gorilla's room is huge, it's really a fairly small space (slightly longer than some) with an open back. I believe the room is only about 14' wide with 8' ceilings. Your planned room is much larger and very tall in the front of the room.
Quote:
I'm sure that once we lock down (for the most part, as I'm sure there will be tinkering) the active xover details, we can translate to passives for the masses. I don't know that the passives will offer the same last bit of performance, I'm sure they won't, but should get someone wanting to replicate the build fairly close with passives.

While target responses and crossover frequencies can most certainly be targeted from the active design, direct translation to passive can be tricky, as some things we do in active crossovers simply can't be done passively, or at least not practically. I know I cannot achieve the integration I get in the 12C's in a passive network. I might be able to get the on-axis response to be very similar, but not the same. While some don't put much priority on it, the 12C also has a top to bottom phase response which fits entirely within a 360 deg window, which is better than many 2 way designs.

All of the work on the horn and probably the low pass response of the woofers can be applied to other systems, where anyone investing this much in parts would want to then do separate EQ for integration into their room, but I've always found the best results to come from a smooth response and integration separate from the room either in open space or in a large baffle. This should certainly be a fun setup!
post #399 of 1502
I appreciate your last sentence Mark. It's something I mentioned to chop way back in PM before he had you helping out. I told him it would be necessary to measure outdoors ground plane to get an "anechoic" response down to 100hz and then get a full set of polars. He would then have to design using that measurement set. Then measure in room and compare it to the outdoor data to keep it right.

Something I feel is not an easy task when dealing with 3ways crossed around 500hz even when the speaker is small. Add to that the size of this one...
post #400 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Keeping all that in mind about his room, the Cats are still my new favorite biggrin.gif

As others have said, I'm sure they will not be something that can translae directly to passive. I am confident in active after hearing what can be done by you with it! I am sure someone will put together a passive system that will work for many folks, but at this point, you have successfully convinced me that a giant active setup is the only way to go for me. I sent you a pm as well Mark, let me know if you need anything else, and thanks again...you and Jeff are ture enthusiasts and professionals who proved to be generous with both your time and ideas!
post #401 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I appreciate your last sentence Mark. It's something I mentioned to chop way back in PM before he had you helping out. I told him it would be necessary to measure outdoors ground plane to get an "anechoic" response down to 100hz and then get a full set of polars. He would then have to design using that measurement set. Then measure in room and compare it to the outdoor data to keep it right.

Something I feel is not an easy task when dealing with 3ways crossed around 500hz even when the speaker is small. Add to that the size of this one...

Couldn't agree more tux, I think I got overly excited and expected to be able to do too much for too little. My confidence is renewed now, and I'm in touch with the real timeline and effort it will take. I'm glad I jumped and bought everything because now it really forces me to enlist the help of Mr. S and get this thing perfect. I would be the first to tell others to listen to advise like you gave me though, and to make sure you know how far the rabbit hole can go before you jump in biggrin.gif As I said, I wouldn't trade it though and I think the end result will be nothing short of spectacluar.
post #402 of 1502
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I appreciate your last sentence Mark. It's something I mentioned to chop way back in PM before he had you helping out. I told him it would be necessary to measure outdoors ground plane to get an "anechoic" response down to 100hz and then get a full set of polars. He would then have to design using that measurement set. Then measure in room and compare it to the outdoor data to keep it right.

Something I feel is not an easy task when dealing with 3ways crossed around 500hz even when the speaker is small. Add to that the size of this one...

Absolutely. These scale efforts require modeling, measuring, correlation and adjustment followed by a few iterative steps of that process. The trickiest part is figuring out how to get measurements on large devices that give you the relative information you need. This can certainly be done with some creativity and breaking up the measurement for different bandwidths. In other words, if you have a clean gated measurement above 1kHz, you really don't have to worry if your low frequency measurement isn't representative above 5-10kHz. Creative uses of boundaries and orientations can give the full picture, even if that picture requires some assembly. This is one of the biggest differentiators between many (not all) DIY projects and the better production designs. I know plenty argue that the response at the listening position is all that matters, but having tried to make such adjustments once set up at the listening position I've always battled with the midbass balance vs. starting with a smoothly integrated woofer. Even in this home studio project I first got the 10s integrated with the coax at John's shop before we installed them and did final adjustments and crossover to the subwoofer at the listening position. Theoretically if you have sampled measurements over a large enough area you average what's going on across the entire listening area, but in my experience, we never have sufficient sampling and you end up chasing your tail between what is a local room effect vs. a response/power issue in the speaker.
post #403 of 1502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

...but in my experience, we never have sufficient sampling and you end up chasing your tail between what is a local room effect vs. a response/power issue in the speaker.

Reading through this, I had the same thought. If we were to simulate the crossover based on ground plane measurements, and then, use those waveforms to make adjustments to the crossover to adjust for power response based on that flat first arrival response. For the installation you referred to, would the polar response be necessary in an on-axis phase alignment at xo? I suppose not in that particular design, but overall should these off-axis measurements always be done? Thanks.

-Nate

PS, Chop, can't wait to see these come to life (oh and the wg's are in OH btw). What are your matinee prices? tongue.gif
post #404 of 1502
In this case, with side by side woofers and such a large waveguide, I believe the polars are necessary. It's another aid to get the xo right. Put it in the room and wham, response is "screwed up". But really, the direct response is still a major factor. The polars also help you identify how it interacts with the room. With side by side woofers and a vertical woofer arrangement, as proposed, I'm going to guess the room interaction will be very well smoothed out. All the more reason to get the design right before the room is involved.

Where the off axis measurements would be less necessary is a cross over at 500hz on a smaller speaker where there is no directivity. For instance, I'll be working on a 3 way with a 10" woofer in the bottom. I know fine and well there's no directivity on a 10" woofer at 500hz so I can figure out the polars in my head. Doesn't hurt to have them though.
post #405 of 1502
Cool. Thanks Tux. Do these OS profiles have the same off axis response? Meaning, the seos-12's response was measured best at 22.5 degrees off-axis, hence toe-in.

I'll be doing the AT1 over a 10", so I'm interested in taking these polar measurements anyway and seeing how it turns out vs in-room.
post #406 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Reading through this, I had the same thought. If we were to simulate the crossover based on ground plane measurements, and then, use those waveforms to make adjustments to the crossover to adjust for power response based on that flat first arrival response. For the installation you referred to, would the polar response be necessary in an on-axis phase alignment at xo? I suppose not in that particular design, but overall should these off-axis measurements always be done? Thanks.

-Nate

PS, Chop, can't wait to see these come to life (oh and the wg's are in OH btw). What are your matinee prices? tongue.gif

Wooohoo..read that first thing this am in the thread and was psyched. I have a BMS4594 on the way to Mark today and will have a waveguide not far behind:D I can't wait to see it all come to life too. I have gotten really excited in the last couple of days. Talking with Mark, hearing what his designs can do first hand, and bringing him on board have me thorugh the roof.

Oh and no charge for AVS'ers:p

I feel bad the way it worked out for Erich and offered to help on shipping cost. Hoepfully, if everyone does this, he can avoid taking a hit on the pallet. He does way too much for us all to take a hit like that.
post #407 of 1502
I'm not sure the SEOS measures best at 22.5d, just that's a good toe angle to get unifrom coverage and get the wide sweet spot trick to work. They'll all have a similar polar response, but I doubt they'll all be exactly the same. But they are all 90d waveguides I believe. And they all should minimize the on axis dip, which was a major design consideration way back when jajaja, zilch, coctostan, etc were sorting these things out. Measuring the polars of your AT1 is a good idea considering I don't think it's been done yet.
post #408 of 1502
Ya, Bill measured at 22.5 horizontal axis and used this in PCD with some z-axis correction. So, I think he was shooting for the best response at that axis point and designed the xo that way with phase alignment based off-axis.

I'll be curious to see the big 24" wg's response measurements if they are published. The AT1 measurements are on Auto-Tech's site using the 4550, I'll be using the same CD. It's gonna be fun!
post #409 of 1502
Thread Starter 
4594 officially in route to IL.

On a side note for anyone interested, a couple of other manufactures are introducing new CD's. Radian has the 951, which is the 1.4 variant of the 950 and Faital is finishing up R&D on a coax to compete with the BMS 4594. I am still using the BMS, just thought I'd let everyone know.
post #410 of 1502
The tentative plan is to configure this as ~68"+ tall column which will greatly help with the vertical midbass issues related to the floor and ceiling interaction, but the modular test setup will allow both options to be investigated. There might be some shading on the top/bottom woofers, but that also will factor in realities of the stage and front wall design. I'm still not convinced the added directivity of the woofers horizontally will make for more benefit than headache, especially with the coax extending rather low on a horn of this size.

Since the horn angle was mentioned above, while I've seen various measurements, I was curious if anyone can confirm the approximate design angle for the H & V horn walls? I've seen reference to roughly 90 x 50?
post #411 of 1502
Hey Mark, 90x45 is I think what the smaller SEOS targeted. Not sure if the 24 is that same.

I thought you were still doing side by side woofers. I agree the vertical woofers is the better choice.
post #412 of 1502
If it helps, the cutoff frequency is 650Hz for the 24" from simulation jzagaja did. Interrested to see how the 4594 performs.
post #413 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The tentative plan is to configure this as ~68"+ tall column which will greatly help with the vertical midbass issues related to the floor and ceiling interaction, but the modular test setup will allow both options to be investigated. There might be some shading on the top/bottom woofers, but that also will factor in realities of the stage and front wall design. I'm still not convinced the added directivity of the woofers horizontally will make for more benefit than headache, especially with the coax extending rather low on a horn of this size.

Since the horn angle was mentioned above, while I've seen various measurements, I was curious if anyone can confirm the approximate design angle for the H & V horn walls? I've seen reference to roughly 90 x 50?

Not sure if you saw the physical measurement, but the waveguide is over 15", so with 60" of woofers and that, wouldn't we need to be much taller?? Maybe I am missing something about it... Angles on the front baffle, etc...??

The site claims a 500hz min xover on the 24. Thanks for your info on it tux...I am hoping to have one to Mark very soon to test out.
post #414 of 1502
Ya, I was refering to this early post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns-115.html#post3050989

It would be cool if it can be crossed that low and maintain directivity and dispersion with the depth of the seos-24 profile. iirc, there was a guy wanting to do this with a 951be, but I'm curious how the 4594 fares in this regard. I hope Mark can provide details throughout the design process.cool.gif
post #415 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Ya, I was refering to this early post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns-115.html#post3050989

It would be cool if it can be crossed that low and maintain directivity and dispersion with the depth of the seos-24 profile. iirc, there was a guy wanting to do this with a 951be, but I'm curious how the 4594 fares in this regard. I hope Mark can provide details throughout the design process.cool.gif

I'm anxious to see myself. Ultimately, I will buy other waveguides if need be, but seeing as I have nine of these, I hope they work biggrin.gif
post #416 of 1502
I can't see why it wouldn't work. The link isn't working for me or I'd look. But even if it looses directivity at 650hz, if you're not doing side by side woofers it should be ok I think.
post #417 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I can't see why it wouldn't work. The link isn't working for me or I'd look. But even if it looses directivity at 650hz, if you're not doing side by side woofers it should be ok I think.

Yeah, I'm sure it will play nice down far enough to be optimal or at least close to optimal. I am just preparing myself for the possibility is all
post #418 of 1502
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The tentative plan is to configure this as ~68"+ tall column which will greatly help with the vertical midbass issues related to the floor and ceiling interaction, but the modular test setup will allow both options to be investigated. There might be some shading on the top/bottom woofers, but that also will factor in realities of the stage and front wall design. I'm still not convinced the added directivity of the woofers horizontally will make for more benefit than headache, especially with the coax extending rather low on a horn of this size.

Since the horn angle was mentioned above, while I've seen various measurements, I was curious if anyone can confirm the approximate design angle for the H & V horn walls? I've seen reference to roughly 90 x 50?

Not sure if you saw the physical measurement, but the waveguide is over 15", so with 60" of woofers and that, wouldn't we need to be much taller?? Maybe I am missing something about it... Angles on the front baffle, etc...??

The site claims a 500hz min xover on the 24. Thanks for your info on it tux...I am hoping to have one to Mark very soon to test out.

That's what I get for trying to sneak in a quick post last night. Yes, it will be very close to 7' tall in total, as I guess I was a little quick on the calculator and goofed in the multiplier. Check your plans and double check it won't be an issue to fit an 84"+ tall speaker behind the screen wall. cool.gif
post #419 of 1502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

That's what I get for trying to sneak in a quick post last night. Yes, it will be very close to 7' tall in total, as I guess I was a little quick on the calculator and goofed in the multiplier. Check your plans and double check it won't be an issue to fit an 84"+ tall speaker behind the screen wall. cool.gif

I almost didn't even say anything cause I figured it was for an angle or something. 84" is fine...believe it or not, it will fit within the height of the screen if all goes according to plan with the HD5 PJ. biggrin.gif I am hoping to have the screen be a 2:35 between 200 and 220", so the height will run somewhere between 84 and 92". Even it I have to shrink some due to budget, the whole screen wall will be A/T.
post #420 of 1502
^^^ SICK
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