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S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 15

post #421 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am hoping to have the screen be a 2:35 between 200 and 220", so the height will run somewhere between 84 and 92". Even it I have to shrink some due to budget, the whole screen wall will be A/T.

Chop, what pj are you going to be using, and how far away will it be mounted? That is a huuuuge screen.
post #422 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Chop, what pj are you going to be using, and how far away will it be mounted? That is a huuuuge screen.

I still think I will probably use the Display Development HD5. The throw will depend on on the final screen size, but prob in the high 20s
post #423 of 1496
The SEOS-24's have arrived.

Photos are in the big SEOS thread.
post #424 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

That's what I get for trying to sneak in a quick post last night. Yes, it will be very close to 7' tall in total, as I guess I was a little quick on the calculator and goofed in the multiplier. Check your plans and double check it won't be an issue to fit an 84"+ tall speaker behind the screen wall. cool.gif

For a quick perspective, the quad 18" sub boxes in my avatar are 84" tall. 4 of those boxes for your 16" Dayton HO's in addition to your new LCR = The Balls!!!! Straight wall of sound homey! The thought of that makes me want to grow a handle bar mustache and headbutt something...



ALPHA son!!!!

However, if you went that route, you would need more subs to spread across the room to even out those modes...

biggrin.gif

Remind me again Chop. What is Mark's scope? Full DB? Or just design, then you build based on Marks design? Or are you pretty much handing over the reigns and having Mark do the whole shebang to include in room integration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I almost didn't even say anything cause I figured it was for an angle or something. 84" is fine...believe it or not, it will fit within the height of the screen if all goes according to plan with the HD5 PJ. biggrin.gif I am hoping to have the screen be a 2:35 between 200 and 220", so the height will run somewhere between 84 and 92". Even it I have to shrink some due to budget, the whole screen wall will be A/T.

Does this height include the 20 degree (or whatever's recommended) cut angle for AT material? You are using Seymour material, right?
Edited by popalock - 4/19/13 at 2:54am
post #425 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The tentative plan is to configure this as ~68"+ tall column which will greatly help with the vertical midbass issues related to the floor and ceiling interaction, but the modular test setup will allow both options to be investigated. There might be some shading on the top/bottom woofers, but that also will factor in realities of the stage and front wall design. I'm still not convinced the added directivity of the woofers horizontally will make for more benefit than headache, especially with the coax extending rather low on a horn of this size.

Since the horn angle was mentioned above, while I've seen various measurements, I was curious if anyone can confirm the approximate design angle for the H & V horn walls? I've seen reference to roughly 90 x 50?


Can someone please explain to me what is "shading"? Is this done in the crossover? What is the purpose of shading?
post #426 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

For a quick perspective, the quad 18" sub boxes in my avatar are 84" tall. 4 of those boxes for your 16" Dayton HO's in addition to your new LCR = The Balls!!!! Straight wall of sound homey! The thought of that makes me want to grow a handle bar mustache and headbutt something...



ALPHA son!!!!

However, if you went that route, you would need more subs to spread across the room to even out those modes...

biggrin.gif

Remind me again Chop. What is Mark's scope? Full DB? Or just design, then you build based on Marks design? Or are you pretty much handing over the reigns and having Mark do the whole shebang to include in room integration?
Does this height include the 20 degree (or whatever's recommended) cut angle for AT material? You are using Seymour material, right?

LOL @ that vid. Alpha for sure.

The Seymour XD is available in 98" width so even with a tilted cut he should have plenty to work with.
post #427 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Can someone please explain to me what is "shading"? Is this done in the crossover? What is the purpose of shading?

Just means one of the woofers won't play as high in frequency as the other. So one will run up to say 500hz while the other will stop at something like 250hz. Usually not a full stop, rather just 6db down, or shaded.
post #428 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Just means one of the woofers won't play as high in frequency as the other. So one will run up to say 500hz while the other will stop at something like 250hz. Usually not a full stop, rather just 6db down, or shaded.

Thanks for explaining I that. I asked a related question in Gorillas' GTG thread, about how/why the Cats/Noesis/Yorks were very popular and of seemingly similar design - coax/CD sandwiched between two woofers - and why that design hasn't been implemented with any SEOS kits... Any ideas?
post #429 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The SEOS-24's have arrived.

Photos are in the big SEOS thread.

Wooooohooooooo!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

For a quick perspective, the quad 18" sub boxes in my avatar are 84" tall. 4 of those boxes for your 16" Dayton HO's in addition to your new LCR = The Balls!!!! Straight wall of sound homey! The thought of that makes me want to grow a handle bar mustache and headbutt something...



ALPHA son!!!!

However, if you went that route, you would need more subs to spread across the room to even out those modes...

biggrin.gif

Remind me again Chop. What is Mark's scope? Full DB? Or just design, then you build based on Marks design? Or are you pretty much handing over the reigns and having Mark do the whole shebang to include in room integration?
Does this height include the 20 degree (or whatever's recommended) cut angle for AT material? You are using Seymour material, right?

Yeaaaahhh Budddyy!! More subs can be arranged biggrin.gif

Mark is basically taking all the components needed to build on main and one surround for design and test purposes. Once he locks down the details, acitve xo, etc. I will have to do the build out of each speaker from there, based on his design. The acitve xo design will be done by him and in all honesty, I will probably just try to have Mark scheduled to come out when I am doing the final setup and just set those with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

LOL @ that vid. Alpha for sure.

The Seymour XD is available in 98" width so even with a tilted cut he should have plenty to work with.

Yup, not sure exactly which one until Dennis' plan gives me the exact width of the room, but somewhere between the figures I gave above will be right. There will be plenty of room behind the screen to place and toe in these monsters as needed.
post #430 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The acitve xo design

Ahhh, so you finally decided to go active to biggrin.gif

I knew we'd get our way with your build, just takes a bit of an arm twist wink.gif
post #431 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

Thanks for explaining I that. I asked a related question in Gorillas' GTG thread, about how/why the Cats/Noesis/Yorks were very popular and of seemingly similar design - coax/CD sandwiched between two woofers - and why that design hasn't been implemented with any SEOS kits... Any ideas?

Size and cost. And design complexity. Gotta start with the basics and grow from there. As it is, assembling cross overs is daunting for 90% of the people buying the kits. Don't worry though, it's coming. Test cabs are built and ready for measuring in my shop right now. Won't be exactly like the Cat and Noesis, but will focus more on midrange and have a vertical woofer arrangement. 3-way as well. Plus an optional active dsp cross over for the woofer/mid xo. Close to 100db, 12" wide, and all for under $500 biggrin.gif I think there's some other similar ideas coming down the line from other guys as well.
post #432 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Chop, what pj are you going to be using, and how far away will it be mounted? That is a huuuuge screen.

I still think I will probably use the Display Development HD5. The throw will depend on on the final screen size, but prob in the high 20s

I was curious on the PJ, went to the website http://www.displaydevelopment.com/hd5.html, and got this message
Quote:
The HD 5 will be introduced in 2012

Those other ones HD1-4 all light cannons!
Do you have a build thread in the HT Construction forum?
post #433 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Size and cost. And design complexity. Gotta start with the basics and grow from there. As it is, assembling cross overs is daunting for 90% of the people buying the kits. Don't worry though, it's coming. Test cabs are built and ready for measuring in my shop right now. Won't be exactly like the Cat and Noesis, but will focus more on midrange and have a vertical woofer arrangement. 3-way as well. Plus an optional active dsp cross over for the woofer/mid xo. Close to 100db, 12" wide, and all for under $500 biggrin.gif I think there's some other similar ideas coming down the line from other guys as well.

Very cool Tux. Send me a PM with details if you get a chance.
post #434 of 1496
I probably missed it Jake; but what are the overall room dimensions you are shooting for?
post #435 of 1496
I think there is an issue with the screen height. I just ran the numbers and a 98" piece of fabric can only be tilted at 4 degrees if the screen is 198" wide. At the 4 degree tilt, it will loose 14" of height, so that 98" fabric is only 84". 84 x 198 is a 214.5 2.35 screen.

It also occured to me that you may not need 4K screen material. You are wanting a screen that is twice the diagonal of most of our screens, that means it has 4 times the area.

A 1080 projector on a 110" screen has a pixel density of about 20 pixels per inch.
A 4K projector on a 214.5" screen has a pixle density of about 20.7 pixels per inch.

It seems to me that your screen is so large that you won't have the need for a 4K screen.
post #436 of 1496
I'd tend to agree there. There also isn't really a need to tilt the fabric. I have yet to see an issue with the newer 1080p projectors and moire. You might catch it now and again on LCD's the don't apply SS, but LCOS/DLP are pretty resilient to moire.

Chris could verify this, but I'm sure he'd agree.
post #437 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I was curious on the PJ, went to the website http://www.displaydevelopment.com/hd5.html, and got this message
Those other ones HD1-4 all light cannons!
Do you have a build thread in the HT Construction forum?

Here is the UHE thread about the PJ, the link to the HD5 is in there, they haven't updated their site yet. It's out and on display.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455913/need-projector-capable-of-lighting-up-huge-screen-with-great-picture/180

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post

I think there is an issue with the screen height. I just ran the numbers and a 98" piece of fabric can only be tilted at 4 degrees if the screen is 198" wide. At the 4 degree tilt, it will loose 14" of height, so that 98" fabric is only 84". 84 x 198 is a 214.5 2.35 screen.

It also occured to me that you may not need 4K screen material. You are wanting a screen that is twice the diagonal of most of our screens, that means it has 4 times the area.

A 1080 projector on a 110" screen has a pixel density of about 20 pixels per inch.
A 4K projector on a 214.5" screen has a pixle density of about 20.7 pixels per inch.

It seems to me that your screen is so large that you won't have the need for a 4K screen.

I tend to agree about the 4k after lots of thought and research, but I think I'll be ok with size..maybe not, if not I will have to adjust, but we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I'd tend to agree there. There also isn't really a need to tilt the fabric. I have yet to see an issue with the newer 1080p projectors and moire. You might catch it now and again on LCD's the don't apply SS, but LCOS/DLP are pretty resilient to moire.

Chris could verify this, but I'm sure he'd agree.

I would tend to agree, but I am not super qualified. The HD5 is a real nice 3 chip dlp, so hopefully no issues.
post #438 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Anybody used or know anything about these bad boys yet???

http://labgruppen.com/products/ipd_series_installation/
post #439 of 1496
You would need 7 of them ? If the price is right it would be a nice combo.
post #440 of 1496
Pretty nice looking unit. If you're just doing active on your LCR (passive surrounds) and going passive between the MF and HF and active between LF and MF, then you'd just need three of them. And then everything would be all in 3U. Are you going to use AVR power for the surrounds, or power amp those as well? You could use them for surrounds as well and then you could eq it really nicely and go fully active.
post #441 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Pretty nice looking unit. If you're just doing active on your LCR (passive surrounds) and going passive between the MF and HF and active between LF and MF, then you'd just need three of them. And then everything would be all in 3U. Are you going to use AVR power for the surrounds, or power amp those as well? You could use them for surrounds as well and then you could eq it really nicely and go fully active.

I like this idea, seems a nice balance of going active while still being practical.
post #442 of 1496
Thread Starter 
I'm planning on full active, surrounds included, even active on the mf/hf sections. I'd be ok with passive surrounds, but if Mark is going to design them active, I don't want to deviate from his plan too much. We also talked about going passive on the CDs, but again, Mark thinks going active on those will bring another level of performance that would be noticeable over passive. Ultimately, it would mean 15 of them, but i can get them for far less than retail. I couldn't afford 15 of them at full price.... A mere $30k. smile.gif
post #443 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I'm planning on full active, surrounds included, even active on the mf/hf sections.

Ha, sorry, I gotta laugh. A short while ago you wanted to go passive on everything, despite us shoving you towards active. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

15 of them at full price.... A mere $30k. smile.gif

So $2k each? Is that for the 1200 or 2400? I'd think you only need the 1200 as you're not powering subs and your speakers will be very effecient. If they made a 100 watt version it would be good enough, likely. At $2k each I wonder if there isn't a more affordable option?

A word of advice, buy a dsp amp like it, but cheap, and give it a whirl before commiting to a $30k purchase. Even if you can get them cheaper. What ever amp / dsp combo you go with, make sure it can function as required by the design. For instance, a lot of cheap pro dsp-amps can do 6 PEQs, 12 and 24db slopes, and level, but can't necessarily do all the slopes, slope types, shelves, delay in fine increments, etc. Heck, Mark might even use biquads eek.gif
post #444 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I'm planning on full active, surrounds included, even active on the mf/hf sections. I'd be ok with passive surrounds, but if Mark is going to design them active, I don't want to deviate from his plan too much. We also talked about going passive on the CDs, but again, Mark thinks going active on those will bring another level of performance that would be noticeable over passive. Ultimately, it would mean 15 of them, but i can get them for far less than retail. I couldn't afford 15 of them at full price.... A mere $30k. smile.gif

To be clear, I suggested the passively blended Mid-HF + active to woofers was a great option without getting crazy with the channel count and practical to carry the identical crossover to the surrounds for ideal imaging. Fully active is likely to provide more flexibility and allow better integration between the sections, but I wouldn't make the call on that until I test it on a waveguide. I would probably look to higher channel count amplifiers for much better value driving the mid-high frequencies, as they will be very efficient when passively blended or fully active. The C series from LabGruppen offers some interesting options as well. I'd still keep everything in mind as possibilities until we do some initial testing.

I used the term "blended" as the active solution frees us from the need for the passive crossover to flatten response. In fact we only want to blend them at crossover while leaving a maximum of efficiency within some practical limits regarding noise floor and the electronics chosen.
post #445 of 1496
Thread Starter 
This is why I thought it worth while to bring Mark in biggrin.gif
Obviously, as Mark said, it's all speculative until he is happy with the testing model and determines what will work best. I am still familiarizing myself with different amp/dsp options, but will ultimately lean on Marks recommendation after the initial design. Just kind of throwing stuff out there as options for now
post #446 of 1496
I agree Mark. You'll end up spending a lot of money going totally full active chop. But hey, it's a mega build so sparing no expense ain't so bad. I just had to laugh cause even in PM before this thread started I remember saying go active on the woofer, the coils alone will suck up power and cost more than the dsp. Glad you're seeing the light wink.gif

Have any construction photos yet ?
post #447 of 1496
There are many options which would work very well, but there are some very nice and very flexible options I like from BSS's London line as well as some from Biamp. I suspect in this case we will be able to use some of the flexible I/O options where some have separate input output chassis or modular options for numbers of channels. Part of the trick is that we will possibly need more than 8 channels of input unless 2 pairs of the surrounds are copied and delayed rather than separately derived in one of the many pre-pro's which allow that. We might be able to find a 12 ch input option with 16-32 ch output.

While these premium options are less economical when handling 2-8 channels, they become much more cost effective when you start really adding to the channel count. While some might be OK with individually hooking up a very long string of MiniDSP's there is also a lot to be said for an integrated control platform, drag & drop configuration with block routing & mixing makes life SO much easier with this many channels!
post #448 of 1496
What SSP do you plan to use Chop ?
post #449 of 1496
I agree a daisy chain of 2x4 minidsps would be pretty sad redface.gif What about some of the larger minidsp options? I haven't looked closely but there's some 10x10 and others I believe. Possibly would only need two.
post #450 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

There are many options which would work very well, but there are some very nice and very flexible options I like from BSS's London line as well as some from Biamp. I suspect in this case we will be able to use some of the flexible I/O options where some have separate input output chassis or modular options for numbers of channels. Part of the trick is that we will possibly need more than 8 channels of input unless 2 pairs of the surrounds are copied and delayed rather than separately derived in one of the many pre-pro's which allow that. We might be able to find a 12 ch input option with 16-32 ch output.

While these premium options are less economical when handling 2-8 channels, they become much more cost effective when you start really adding to the channel count. While some might be OK with individually hooking up a very long string of MiniDSP's there is also a lot to be said for an integrated control platform, drag & drop configuration with block routing & mixing makes life SO much easier with this many channels!

Agreed, I knew going in, after our first convo at Andrew's, that the best way was something like the London, etc. I'd rather spend a couple extra bucks to have the best implementation. You are my Yoda here smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

What SSP do you plan to use Chop ?

Planning on the Marantz 8801 right now. I have the Denon 4520 in the living room now and it's great. From what I'm told the 8801 only improves upon that so it seems like a solid choice. I was looking at the ADA options and the trinnov, but the price gets crazy and the reality is that I can't go $20k processing, $30k amps/dsp, $20k spkrs, $30k pj.....it's just not gonna happen. I feel like the 8801 will offer a lot of performance for only a little money in comparison. The pj, comparatively, has to be at that level to accommidate the screen size, the amps/dsp need to be up there to make optimum use of the speaker build...something had to give.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I agree a daisy chain of 2x4 minidsps would be pretty sad redface.gif What about some of the larger minidsp options? I haven't looked closely but there's some 10x10 and others I believe. Possibly would only need two.

I have seen them, but haven't used any of the larger ones. Again, I will defer to Mark ultimately and use what he can show me how to integrate easiest and with the best result.

I don't have any construction photos yet, as Mark will be dicating to me the parameters of the enclosures after he does testing with the "prototype" enclosures.
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