or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 20

post #571 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Keep in mind if you use the 4520, you will be going from un-balanced to balanced.

Yeah, that has crossed my mind. I still haven't made my decision, but my do this for now. The other option is spend just a few hundred more and pick up a dhc80.2 or something like that to use in the HT for a while. Mark, I think< originally brought this idea up. It will all depend on how a few other things shake out with the house in the next few weeks.
post #572 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Yeah, that has crossed my mind. I still haven't made my decision, but my do this for now. The other option is spend just a few hundred more and pick up a dhc80.2 or something like that to use in the HT for a while. Mark, I think< originally brought this idea up. It will all depend on how a few other things shake out with the house in the next few weeks.


Chop if i were you I would go with either a used Denon AVR-4311 or a used Integra 80.2 as someone else suggested. The XT32 is a major selling point, though, and I am not sure if the Integra has it.
The reason that I am recommending a used receiver or pre/pro is because with the way that things change in this hobby, its kind of like computers in that the technology changes so fast , you might want to
upgrade sometime in the near future depending on what comes out in the next year or two.
post #573 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Chop if i were you I would go with either a used Denon AVR-4311 or a used Integra 80.2 as someone else suggested. The XT32 is a major selling point, though, and I am not sure if the Integra has it.
The reason that I am recommending a used receiver or pre/pro is because with the way that things change in this hobby, its kind of like computers in that the technology changes so fast , you might want to
upgrade sometime in the near future depending on what comes out in the next year or two.

I agree with you for the most part Marty, that's why I metion the dhc 80.2...it can be had very reasonably, it does have XT32, and if I can pick one up for a grand or so, I could sell it for not much of a loss(even if I sold it for $500, I only lost 500 and used it all that time) in a year or two and upgrade. Seems like the logical choice to me.
post #574 of 1496
The Integra 80.2 is basically the same as the Onkyo 5508 which can be had for a lower price.
post #575 of 1496
Just got caught up on this thread, definitely going to keep a closer eye on this one. cool.gif

Good luck moving forward.
post #576 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Chop if i were you I would go with either a used Denon AVR-4311 or a used Integra 80.2 as someone else suggested. The XT32 is a major selling point, though, and I am not sure if the Integra has it.
The reason that I am recommending a used receiver or pre/pro is because with the way that things change in this hobby, its kind of like computers in that the technology changes so fast , you might want to
upgrade sometime in the near future depending on what comes out in the next year or two.

I agree with you for the most part Marty, that's why I metion the dhc 80.2...it can be had very reasonably, it does have XT32, and if I can pick one up for a grand or so, I could sell it for not much of a loss(even if I sold it for $500, I only lost 500 and used it all that time) in a year or two and upgrade. Seems like the logical choice to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

The Integra 80.2 is basically the same as the Onkyo 5508 which can be had for a lower price.

With these being a generation old it's just a matter of timing to grab one for a deal. One easy trick to snag the good deals for those who have a UPS/FedEx account is to offer to e-mail the shipping label so the seller just has to pack and drop it off. In any case Chop' you can wait for a deal you can't pass up, as getting these much under $1k means you can always sell them for similar price. I ended up doing the same for my office system after I tore apart my home system one too many times. While the new models like the Marantz were tempting, for less than $1k out of pocket vs. 2-3x that, it made the decision easy for a component I know will be changed out.
post #577 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post


With these being a generation old it's just a matter of timing to grab one for a deal. One easy trick to snag the good deals for those who have a UPS/FedEx account is to offer to e-mail the shipping label so the seller just has to pack and drop it off. In any case Chop' you can wait for a deal you can't pass up, as getting these much under $1k means you can always sell them for similar price. I ended up doing the same for my office system after I tore apart my home system one too many times. While the new models like the Marantz were tempting, for less than $1k out of pocket vs. 2-3x that, it made the decision easy for a component I know will be changed out.

Very good point. I have been keeping my eyes open for the last week.

You get any time on the WG/CD yet??
post #578 of 1496
Too much talking and not enough pointless graphs most of us don't understand :P
post #579 of 1496
Chop, have you decided what kind of finish you will be using on these? Also, what ohm load will these
babies be? What amps did you decide on? I would imagine that you could get some damn good performance
out of a bridged EP4000 per channel for the LCR's, then a pair of EP4000's for the surrounds. I currently have
some EP1.500's for my LCR's and I love them.
post #580 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Chop, have you decided what kind of finish you will be using on these? Also, what ohm load will these
babies be? What amps did you decide on? I would imagine that you could get some damn good performance
out of a bridged EP4000 per channel for the LCR's, then a pair of EP4000's for the surrounds. I currently have
some EP1.500's for my LCR's and I love them.

To be honest Marty, I haven't. I was thinking of going crazy, just for show, but the fact that they will be hidden at all times just keeps bringing me back to simple boxes with black duratex.

Probably going to use LG amps, as I can get a great deal on them. The noise floor of a given amp will be a huge determinant factor with the high sensitivity of these. Not sure yet how final imp will work out. We are going acitve on them, and it will also depend on amps. Because the LG c series is the same power at 4 or 8ohm, I could run each pair of woofs in the main( two pairs per main) in series and run at 8ohm, stressing the amp less and getting me the same power. I'm going to defrer to Mark a bit on this too, only because he is doing the initial testing and can better determine which components need how much power.
post #581 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

but if the flange is wrong on the SEOS24, how much you want to bet the flange is the same wrong size on the $400 each Iwata-300 horns I also ordered?.... and won't work with the JBL 2446 2" throat CDs that I specifically ordered those horns for?... $400 + $400 +$200 + $200 + shipping + *many* months of waiting...... and I still can't listen to the JBL CDs with the beryllium diaphragms and get a feel for what they sound like?... it's more than a little frustrating... and yes.... many, many, many curse words have left my mouth in the last 24 hours....

Can it be made to work? Sure... But again, I shouldn't have to fabricate something to do that given I specifically ordered them for the JBL drivers (the BMS group buy purchases I made were a last minute thing months after I'd ordered and paid for the horns from Poland)... I can still use them as is on the BMS CDs.... but the primary purpose for these purchases was to listen to the JBLs... and I can't do that without fabricating something to basterdize it into working... that pisses me off after waiting this long....

well what do you know.... came back from first vacation with the boy in a good mood.... only to open boxes from Erich and ruin it.... of course, the Iwata horns have the same idiotic metal flange that isn't remotely big enough to bolt the JBL compression drivers.... why am I not surprised.... at least they aren't cosmetically damaged with gouges, scuffs, and gel coat sheen worn dull like the SEOS24s were when they showed up... beyond disgusted....
post #582 of 1496
Thread Starter 
I wonder if Mark has any news.. biggrin.gif
post #583 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

To be honest Marty, I haven't. I was thinking of going crazy, just for show, but the fact that they will be hidden at all times just keeps bringing me back to simple boxes with black duratex.

Probably going to use LG amps, as I can get a great deal on them. The noise floor of a given amp will be a huge determinant factor with the high sensitivity of these. Not sure yet how final imp will work out. We are going acitve on them, and it will also depend on amps. Because the LG c series is the same power at 4 or 8ohm, I could run each pair of woofs in the main( two pairs per main) in series and run at 8ohm, stressing the amp less and getting me the same power. I'm going to defrer to Mark a bit on this too, only because he is doing the initial testing and can better determine which components need how much power.


Which of the LG clones would you use? Aren't those amps capable of some really crazy wattage? Are these Seos/BMS/AE speakers capable of handling that kind of power?

Is the noise floor on those LG clones that much lower or better than something like a Behringer EP4000 or a Crown XLS1500 or the XTI2002?

What are you going to be using as the active crossover and EQ devise?

I would imagine that the Behringer iNuke6000dsp or the iNuke3000dsp would be a terrific amp to use
because it has built in controls for the EQ and active crossovers. Or you could step it up to the Crown XTI2002 or any other XTI amp and possibly get some really nice sound.
post #584 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I wonder if Mark has any news.. biggrin.gif

Yesterday I went over some details with the friend fabricating the test cabinets. I expect we'll start more serious tinkering later next week while I dive into much more of the work in June.
post #585 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

well what do you know.... came back from first vacation with the boy in a good mood.... only to open boxes from Erich and ruin it.... of course, the Iwata horns have the same idiotic metal flange that isn't remotely big enough to bolt the JBL compression drivers.... why am I not surprised.... at least they aren't cosmetically damaged with gouges, scuffs, and gel coat sheen worn dull like the SEOS24s were when they showed up... beyond disgusted....


I don't take off the bubble wrap from the horns we get from Autotech. I just package them up so there's no shipping damage from me to whoever ordered them. The gel coats can be polished like your car paint if it needs it. Black is the hardest gel coat to make perfect, so there will likely be a need for some light polishing or waxing. No different than if a car was shipped across country and the dealer would clean it up.

If there are gouges, take some photos and I will send them to Autotech and see what they say. I haven't seen any deep scratches on their horns yet, but I suppose there could be a first.

Also, with the mounting flange, I told them what was going to be used. But maybe they don't have a metal flange that large. The MDF flanges would certainly be big enough, but when you asked for metal, I told Autotech and they made them all metal for the SEOS-24. It was an extra $7 or $10 cost, I can't recall.

As mentioned, I got the same ones that you did. An easy fix will be to just epoxy or weld a piece of metal on the inner side of the flange and drill some screw holes.

If you don't want the waveguides, you can send them back and we can find someone that will want them, no big deal.
post #586 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Which of the LG clones would you use? Aren't those amps capable of some really crazy wattage? Are these Seos/BMS/AE speakers capable of handling that kind of power?

Is the noise floor on those LG clones that much lower or better than something like a Behringer EP4000 or a Crown XLS1500 or the XTI2002?

What are you going to be using as the active crossover and EQ devise?

I would imagine that the Behringer iNuke6000dsp or the iNuke3000dsp would be a terrific amp to use
because it has built in controls for the EQ and active crossovers. Or you could step it up to the Crown XTI2002 or any other XTI amp and possibly get some really nice sound.

They aren't LG clones, they are legit LG amps...lower end and much less expensive than the real LG that folks have the clones of. The eq/active network will be more complex than the internal dsp abilities. I had similar ideas to what your saying originally, but Mark made a convincing case for the stand alone dsp units and spending a few extra bucks on amps.
post #587 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

They aren't LG clones, they are legit LG amps...lower end and much less expensive than the real LG that folks have the clones of. The eq/active network will be more complex than the internal dsp abilities. I had similar ideas to what your saying originally, but Mark made a convincing case for the stand alone dsp units and spending a few extra bucks on amps.

Ok, may I ask which LG amps you are going to be using? Also, what are you going to use for the outboard DSP and EQ? (Sorry if this has already been mentioned)
post #588 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Sweet, glad to hear you have used them. I figure I could get away with two of the 20.8 and two of the 28.4. That would put 350w per woofer to the mains,so 1400w to woofs, 250w to each surround woofer and 250 to each CD with passive. That cuts the retail cost of amps to a third of what the ipd would be...add in $4-5k for the BSS and I'm under $15k in amps/DSP

This is the last I remember as far as LG models he was thinking about using. Not cheap by any means but a lot cheaper than the FP models and newer high power models.
post #589 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok, may I ask which LG amps you are going to be using? Also, what are you going to use for the outboard DSP and EQ? (Sorry if this has already been mentioned)

As avholic said, they arent' so cheap, but less than FP...the C series. Looking at the BSS London units for DSP
post #590 of 1496
what does bss dsp offer that the dcx2496 does not?

"The noise floor of a given amp will be a huge determinant factor with the high sensitivity of these."

just be careful comparing noise floor specs. there are several different ways of going about it that can swing results by 20db or more. even the ep2500/4000 class amps should be good enough (chuck measured one at around -110db s-n, iirc).

btw, have you received (or performed) a measurement of the drivers that you will be using?
post #591 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what does bss dsp offer that the dcx2496 does not?

"The noise floor of a given amp will be a huge determinant factor with the high sensitivity of these."

just be careful comparing noise floor specs. there are several different ways of going about it that can swing results by 20db or more. even the ep2500/4000 class amps should be good enough (chuck measured one at around -110db s-n, iirc).

The DCX has much more limited routing, number of filters, depth of filters, Q of filters, and ability to have a coordinated programming interface.

Signal to noise is related, but only part of the issue, as it only applies when many things compared are similar. We care about the absolute mV noise floor more than just signal to noise. Obviously appropriate adjustment of gain stages is required to optimize for the lowest practical noise floor.
post #592 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what does bss dsp offer that the dcx2496 does not?

"The noise floor of a given amp will be a huge determinant factor with the high sensitivity of these."

just be careful comparing noise floor specs. there are several different ways of going about it that can swing results by 20db or more. even the ep2500/4000 class amps should be good enough (chuck measured one at around -110db s-n, iirc).

btw, have you received (or performed) a measurement of the drivers that you will be using?

If the EPs measure, on these units, as well as the Labs...I'd be sold in a minute as it would save a great deal of cash. I will let Mark determine that because he is in a much better position to do it than me.
post #593 of 1496
Mark, are you going to feature custom designs, such as Chops, on your website?

Not my intent to get OT, but your website design look really frwakin nice and it would be cool to see some past/present/future custom designs featured vs just a online store.

Chop, how much longer till the house is done man!
post #594 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

just be careful comparing noise floor specs. there are several different ways of going about it that can swing results by 20db or more. even the ep2500/4000 class amps should be good enough (chuck measured one at around -110db s-n, iirc).

I forgot to add that in all likelihood the more classic design of the EP series are likely to be quiet enough. The value class D/PWM amps are more likely to have issues with the very high sensitivity drivers. Simple rule to follow when using the Behringer EP's is "thou shall not clip!" as they sound really bad when they do eventually clip. So long as you use plenty of headroom based on the real power they produce, they can work just fine assuming you have plenty of rack space and don't care about the efficiency. I would probably never install them in a system where I was responsible for service calls, but they are a very high value and problems are much less common with home use than in professional installs.

Of course if we are driving 8 Ohm loads of the compression drivers, some multi-channel amps aren't quite as far away in value when the EP4000 only offers 2 x 550W.
post #595 of 1496
"Signal to noise is related, but only part of the issue, as it only applies when many things compared are similar. We care about the absolute mV noise floor more than just signal to noise."

if the amp is measured at -110db s/n at 450 watts, doesn't that imply that the noise floor without any power applied is about 26.5db lower, or roughly 83db? i suppose that it could drift a little lower, but 1w isn't likely hiding much. maybe that isn't good enough for an active horn loaded system. also, is there a simple way to test the noise floor of an amp hooked to a c.d., such as shorting the input or something?

edit: i missed your follow-up. thanks.
post #596 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Mark, are you going to feature custom designs, such as Chops, on your website?

Not my intent to get OT, but your website design look really frwakin nice and it would be cool to see some past/present/future custom designs featured vs just a online store.

Chop, how much longer till the house is done man!

Ugh..it seems like never. I will post some progress pics over the weekend.
post #597 of 1496
Chop, truly exciting stuff.
I apologize if this has been covered, but any build thread or links regarding the acoustic design elements of the room?


Mark,
You and I have discussed processors, has the Xilica offerings fallen behind BSS London platform? Or is that merely an apples to oranges thing, and not fully comparable. Xilica doesn't really offer the drag and drop config style of the BSS, but the full size XLR I/O are attractive. Are your preferences software based only? I've stripped and terminated thousands of connectors, I've got no issue with that, it's just so nice to have the full size chassis mounted XLRs.

Also, you're absolutely right about the EP4000, .. clipping creates very odd, unpredictable and most importantly unstable behavior. In some scenarios they can "dump", whereby they appear to lose all damping and control of CEMF. Feedback topology? Anyway they're a solid solution within their means. I've got two of them myself. Somewhat like the Nelson Pass' Adcom 555 in the 90's, and the David Hafler 500 before it in the 80's, .. everyone seemed had one at one time or another,.. affordable, powerful.

Not really significant, however I believe the EP4000 was measured at 450w/ch@8ohms.

When you dabble into the custom, bespoke world, it's always a good thing ... as seen here cool.gif


Thanks
post #598 of 1496
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Chop, truly exciting stuff.
I apologize if this has been covered, but any build thread or links regarding the acoustic design elements of the room?


Mark,
You and I have discussed processors, has the Xilica offerings fallen behind BSS London platform? Or is that merely an apples to oranges thing, and not fully comparable. Xilica doesn't really offer the drag and drop config style of the BSS, but the full size XLR I/O are attractive. Are your preferences software based only? I've stripped and terminated thousands of connectors, I've got no issue with that, it's just so nice to have the full size chassis mounted XLRs.

Also, you're absolutely right about the EP4000, .. clipping creates very odd, unpredictable and most importantly unstable behavior. In some scenarios they can "dump", whereby they appear to lose all damping and control of CEMF. Feedback topology? Anyway they're a solid solution within their means. I've got two of them myself. Somewhat like the Nelson Pass' Adcom 555 in the 90's, and the David Hafler 500 before it in the 80's, .. everyone seemed had one at one time or another,.. affordable, powerful.

Not really significant, however I believe the EP4000 was measured at 450w/ch@8ohms.

When you dabble into the custom, bespoke world, it's always a good thing ... as seen here cool.gif


Thanks

I am having Dennis do the general design, the house project has just taken so long. We are still a few weeks away from start at least. I am going to post a build thread in the Dedicated HT area over the weekend with some progress pics of the house, just to get started.

In the end, I will most likely end up with the Labs. As the project goes on, it just seems like a couple $k is worth the peace of mind and ability to push the system. I all reality, I will probably only come into the area where they benefit over the EPs for the occasional GTG, but it's better to have more power than you need than to have the pedal to floor and need more juice cool.gif
post #599 of 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I am having Dennis do the general design, the house project has just taken so long. We are still a few weeks away from start at least. I am going to post a build thread in the Dedicated HT area over the weekend with some progress pics of the house, just to get started.

In the end, I will most likely end up with the Labs. As the project goes on, it just seems like a couple $k is worth the peace of mind and ability to push the system. I all reality, I will probably only come into the area where they benefit over the EPs for the occasional GTG, but it's better to have more power than you need than to have the pedal to floor and need more juice cool.gif

Gotcha, thanks.

The Labs are the way to go. The trick SMPS just takes the cake.
post #600 of 1496
Chop, tell us more about the rest of your setup. What are you using as the pre/pro or receiver? What are you using as your source, bluray?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD