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S.E.O.S.R. MEGA BUILD - Page 3

post #61 of 599
2/10/13 at 6:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I have been playing around with the woofer arrangement in PCD:

Two 12” woofers below the SEOS-12 should work great with a crossover 400-500hz where they have a -6 at about 40-50 degrees of axis. That should be a really good match with the SEOS-24.
Two 15” woofers will be about -6dB at +- 25 degrees with a 500hz crossover and -6dB at +- 40 degrees with a 400hz crossover, that is a little narrower but should be workable.
18’s should not be used horizontal below the waveguide as the lobing will be too narrow.

In an MTM arraignment with dual 18’s you should see a vertical window of about +- 12-13 degrees with a 500hz crossover and +- 16-18 degrees with a 400hz crossover. That is using a woofer CTC of 92mm or about 3’.
The window just gets wider with the smaller woofers but I think they start to look a little small sitting on either side of the massive SEOS-24.

The only problem I see is that the seos12 isn't for use with the 1.4" CDs I got....plus I ordered the 9 seos24s already biggrin.gif. Is there any reason the 24 wouldn't work as good or better over the dual 12s in the surrounds?
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post #62 of 599
2/10/13 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The only problem I see is that the seos12 isn't for use with the 1.4" CDs I got....plus I ordered the 9 seos24s already biggrin.gif. Is there any reason the 24 wouldn't work as good or better over the dual 12s in the surrounds?

I'm hoping some of the work here trickles down into smaller SEOS 12-15 designs. If the SEOS12 or 15 could be modified to accept the 1.4" 4594, I would buy two in a heartbeat for my mains. Dual woofer configs would be awesome. 2 TD12x's per tower? biggrin.gif

If it can't, then if a solid passive crossover design is made which mates the AE TD12-15's and XT1464, I might be game for two of those as well.

Lots of possibilities here that can help the rest of us out too. Subscribed.
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post #63 of 599
2/10/13 at 7:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I'm hoping some of the work here trickles down into smaller SEOS 12-15 designs. If the SEOS12 or 15 could be modified to accept the 1.4" 4594, I would buy two in a heartbeat for my mains. Dual woofer configs would be awesome. 2 TD12x's per tower? biggrin.gif

If it can't, then if a solid passive crossover design is made which mates the AE TD12-15's and XT1464, I might be game for two of those as well.

Lots of possibilities here that can help the rest of us out too. Subscribed.

The Seos15 can be used down to 850hz,the 18 down to 700... not sure about the mods to get it to work with 1.4" CDs though. Why not use the seos24 with dual 12s?? You could mirror what I'm doing for surrounds. I gotta tell ya, I am warming up more and more to active solutions too though. It's still nice to have the passives IMO.
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post #64 of 599
2/10/13 at 8:34pm
Sorry I meant SEOS-24 in that last post, I fixed it.
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post #65 of 599
2/10/13 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I'm hoping some of the work here trickles down into smaller SEOS 12-15 designs. If the SEOS12 or 15 could be modified to accept the 1.4" 4594, I would buy two in a heartbeat for my mains. Dual woofer configs would be awesome. 2 TD12x's per tower? biggrin.gif

If it can't, then if a solid passive crossover design is made which mates the AE TD12-15's and XT1464, I might be game for two of those as well.

Lots of possibilities here that can help the rest of us out too. Subscribed.

The Seos15 can be used down to 850hz,the 18 down to 700... not sure about the mods to get it to work with 1.4" CDs though. Why not use the seos24 with dual 12s?? You could mirror what I'm doing for surrounds. I gotta tell ya, I am warming up more and more to active solutions too though. It's still nice to have the passives IMO.

I would love to, but the max width I can run for each speaker is about 17". Not enough space. I will be studying your build though, as your surrounds are pretty much what I want for mains.

Active would be nice, if there was a somewhat cost effective way to do it.

The Seos 12 TD12x towers I'm putting together are probably way more than I'll ever need, but that BMS coax intrigues me. I'll always wonder, what if I went with it instead?
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post #66 of 599
2/11/13 at 1:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Active would be nice, if there was a somewhat cost effective way to do it.

A Behringer iNuke 1000DSP can be had for less than $300 and has 2 channels of amplification plus DSP. The stock fans are loud, but easy to replace.

-Max
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post #67 of 599
2/11/13 at 4:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I have been playing around with the woofer arrangement in PCD:

Two 12” woofers below the SEOS-24 should work great with a crossover 400-500hz where they have a -6 at about 40-50 degrees of axis. That should be a really good match with the SEOS-24.
Two 15” woofers will be about -6dB at +- 25 degrees with a 500hz crossover and -6dB at +- 40 degrees with a 400hz crossover, that is a little narrower but should be workable.
18’s should not be used horizontal below the waveguide as the lobing will be too narrow.

In an MTM arraignment with dual 18’s you should see a vertical window of about +- 12-13 degrees with a 500hz crossover and +- 16-18 degrees with a 400hz crossover. That is using a woofer CTC of 92mm or about 3’. The window just gets wider with the smaller woofers but I think they start to look a little too small with just one sitting on either side of the massive SEOS-24.

Interesting/Awesome technical info MTG!

So, this build is sounding more and more like the Everest! Not my intent to add a layer of complication to the build, but could the 15"s be toed out slightly to increase the axis? Similiar to the approach of the Everest itself? Just thinking out loud I guess.

38" x 43-5/8" x 18-1/2"
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post #68 of 599
2/11/13 at 5:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Interesting/Awesome technical info MTG!

So, this build is sounding more and more like the Everest! Not my intent to add a layer of complication to the build, but could the 15"s be toed out slightly to increase the axis? Similiar to the approach of the Everest itself? Just thinking out loud I guess.

38" x 43-5/8" x 18-1/2"

That is actually where my head was at a few days ago. I think something like that would be cool too. A five foot tall, 300lb cabinet with dual 18s looks neat too biggrin.gif

We are going back and forth right now on the differences in the two designs and how each might perform in the room for me. It will be a small compromise either way, but we are going to try to figure out which will be less of a compromise. 4 15s in each...two top, two bottom biggrin.gif In all seriousness though, would that minimize compromise??
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post #69 of 599
2/11/13 at 6:47am
Thread Starter 
So sticking with getting carried away, and in the interest of trying ot minimize any negative effects of either alignment, I have been modeling quad AE TD15m's in 20ft3 tuned to 45hz with 2kw. They look like beasts!! No excursion trouble and very even response. If this would solve the issue of choosing between the MTM or horizontal, by implementing both, I would love to do it!
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post #70 of 599
2/11/13 at 6:52am
I ask this out of curiosity more than anything but would 1 15" driver have almost the same output as 2 12" drivers? It seems alot easier to build the design/Crossover for 1 driver verses 2. Especially if they are going to be used as Surrounds. I was thinking that the BMS 4594 with the TD15x as fronts would have close to the same output while going a little lower than the 4594 w/ TD12x x 2. Not your fronts Chop just in general.
Any thoughts
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/11/13 at 7:08am
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post #71 of 599
2/11/13 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

So sticking with getting carried away, and in the interest of trying ot minimize any negative effects of either alignment, I have been modeling quad AE TD15m's in 20ft3 tuned to 45hz with 2kw. They look like beasts!! No excursion trouble and very even response. If this would solve the issue of choosing between the MTM or horizontal, by implementing both, I would love to do it!
With that kind of thinking you are going to have one of the most incredible home theaters on this AVS forum No matter which route you go. The world is a better place with your ideas in it. Glad I only have to read and not help.smile.gif
Thanks ChopShop
Chris
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post #72 of 599
2/11/13 at 7:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I ask this out of curiosity more than anything but would 1 15" driver have almost the same output as 2 12" drivers? It seems alot easier to build the design/Crossover for 1 driver verses 2. Especially if they are going to be used as Surrounds. I was thinking that the BMS 4594 with the TD15x as fronts would have close to the same output while going a little lower than the 4594 w/ TD12x x 2.
Any thoughts
Chris

Thats a great question Chris. It would save me a heck of a lot of money too! Modeling tells me that the td15m would actually have more output from 60hz up with the same power. Even that would give up a few db throughout the range it will be used. I just can't put enough power to it to get more output without running into thermal issue I assume. At 500w handling, it gives up a few db. If I can run 800w to it, it would be within 2 db from 200hz to 500hz and the single 15 would actually have the advantage from 40-100hz. If John isn't concerned with thermal limits, this option could be great. It would save me $1200 in woofers...which I would spend to dual quad 15s in the mains biggrin.gif
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post #73 of 599
2/11/13 at 7:16am
I know you like that CV amp as it is a great value for subs. This statement is just an opinion but for speakers I would use a different amp. D-Sonic & Wyred4Sound are the real deal as is the Sunfire amp. I have the D-sonic and it puts out 500/1000 wpc of incredibly clean sound and it is dead silent. You can get 7 x 500/1000 wpc in a 50lb chasis that does not make any noise nor does it get hot. It barely gets warm. Its 85% + efficient and amp costs $4300 and does what it says. To me its the best value/performance out there. Check into it b/c its a winner. There is alot of value in Pro amps and I understand. Alot of current owners have done that and consider the total package of these amps as the next level.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 2/11/13 at 8:02am
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post #74 of 599
2/11/13 at 7:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


With that kind of thinking you are going to have one of the most incredible home theaters on this AVS forum No matter which route you go. The world is a better place with your ideas in it. Glad I only have to read and not help.smile.gif
Thanks ChopShop
Chris

Appreciate the encouragement! You didn't realize that by responding to the thread you are now part of the build crew..?? Bring your tools:D
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post #75 of 599
2/11/13 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I know you like that CV amp as it is a great value for subs. This statement is just an opinion but for speakers I would use a different amp. D-Sonic & Wyred4Sound are the real deal as is the Sunfire amp. I have the D-sonic and it puts out 500/1000 wpc of incredibly clean sound and it is dead silent. You can get 7 x 500/1000 wpc in a 50lb chasis that does not make any noise nor does it get hot. It barely gets warm. Its 85% + efficient and amp costs $4300 and does what it says. To me its the best value/performance out there. Check into it b/c its a winner. There is alot of value in Pro amps and I understand. Alot of current owners have done that and consider the total package of these amps as the next level. These amps are also 85% + effecient.
Chris

I have no idea as to how you figure a 500/1000 wpc amp that cost over $4,300 bucks is "The best value/performance out there". I used to have a 400 wpc Sunfire amp that I sold several months ago because I could not tell the differences between it and my Behringer EP4000, for use as powering my mains. I am still on the fence as to whether or not all modern day amps/dacs/pre-amps/ect...sound the same, but in all absolute honesty, when level matched and switched back and forth, I could not tell any difference between the two. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, I just don't think it is right to say that a $4k dollar amp is a good value when there better and/or similar amps out there for much less money.
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post #76 of 599
2/11/13 at 7:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I know you like that CV amp as it is a great value for subs. This statement is just an opinion but for speakers I would use a different amp. D-Sonic & Wyred4Sound are the real deal as is the Sunfire amp. I have the D-sonic and it puts out 500/1000 wpc of incredibly clean sound and it is dead silent. You can get 7 x 500/1000 wpc in a 50lb chasis that does not make any noise nor does it get hot. It barely gets warm. Its 85% + efficient and amp costs $4300 and does what it says. To me its the best value/performance out there. Check into it b/c its a winner. There is alot of value in Pro amps and I understand. Alot of current owners have done that and consider the total package of these amps as the next level. These amps are also 85% + effecient.
Chris

The only reason I brought it into play is because I ran it to the Sentinels and it worked great. I am pretty familiar with wyred and the like, my issue with them is power. It will cost 4300 for 500w/ch and I will need more than that, even for surrounds. With the mains, fogettaboutit. If I go quad 15s and the 4594, I will need over 2kw per channel on the mains. Value wise, I don't feel like it has an advantage in my situation. It will cost me more than double, I'd need two of them plus amps for hf/mid sections and have to run active. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be more efficient and take up less rack space, I just don't want power to cost $10k if it doesnt' have to.
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post #77 of 599
2/11/13 at 8:02am
2401 turns 30 this year.

http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/speaker/model2401twin-e.html

mounting a second horn baffle board on the woofer baffle makes for a nice look imho.

actually shouldn't be all that difficult of a build.

i'm pretty sure that this one employed both woofers across their full range unlike the everest which was a .5 design that rolled in the second woofer pretty low.

the 1601-a woofers are still available if you want to pay $900 each. :-)



with legs, they look like something out of the empire strikes back.

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post #78 of 599
2/11/13 at 8:08am
Chop Shop- I wonder how something like a Radian 950PB would sound on the Seos24 in a 2-way configuration with duel 15's or 18's like you are planning? Does BMS make any coaxial drivers that are similar to the 4594, but perhaps a step down or so, for less money than the 4595?

Like I said earlier, I would like to build something really big and mean for my center channel with my Seos12 left and right speakers. I would love to copy this design with the Seos24, but the cost of the 4594 is just too much for me to bear.

What size is the end of the Seos24? (ie what size drivers will work with it, 1.4" or 2" drivers? What are some alternatives to the BMS-4594 that would be used in a really nice 3-way design?

Would it be possible to use the Seos10 or Seos12 with a nice CD tweeter, such as the DNA360 and then cross that over at say...8khz to a Seos24 with a Radian 950PB 2" compression driver for the mid-range frequencies and then possibly cross that over to a duel pair of JBL2226j woofers? I could then possibly sometime down the road add a Be diphram to the Radian 950PB.
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post #79 of 599
2/11/13 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

2401 turns 30 this year.

http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/speaker/model2401twin-e.html

mounting a second horn baffle board on the woofer baffle makes for a nice look imho.

actually shouldn't be all that difficult of a build.

i'm pretty sure that this one employed both woofers across their full range unlike the everest which was a .5 design that rolled in the second woofer pretty low.

the 1601-a woofers are still available if you want to pay $900 each. :-)



with legs, they look like something out of the empire strikes back.


Very cool, I have never seen them. I do like the look the second Baffle board as well, it gives it a little something...wonder what it would look like if we shopped two more 15s on top biggrin.gif
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post #80 of 599
2/11/13 at 8:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Chop Shop- I wonder how something like a Radian 950PB would sound on the Seos24 in a 2-way configuration with duel 15's or 18's like you are planning? Does BMS make any coaxial drivers that are similar to the 4594, but perhaps a step down or so, for less money than the 4595?

Like I said earlier, I would like to build something really big and mean for my center channel with my Seos12 left and right speakers. I would love to copy this design with the Seos24, but the cost of the 4594 is just too much for me to bear.

What size is the end of the Seos24? (ie what size drivers will work with it, 1.4" or 2" drivers? What are some alternatives to the BMS-4594 that would be used in a really nice 3-way design?

Would it be possible to use the Seos10 or Seos12 with a nice CD tweeter, such as the DNA360 and then cross that over at say...8khz to a Seos24 with a Radian 950PB 2" compression driver for the mid-range frequencies and then possibly cross that over to a duel pair of JBL2226j woofers? I could then possibly sometime down the road add a Be diphram to the Radian 950PB.

I have no experience with the Radian. BMS does make others, the 4593 is a bit less expensive, I think its about a hundred bucks less..Jack at Assitance can tell you for sure, as I still can't get to my office for the list. I am really kind of stuck to the 4594, as from what I can tell, its as good as it gets for anywhere near the money.

The seos24 is only said to work on 1.4 or 1.5". I am not familiar with any alternatives that are the same size and less money. I will leave the rest to someone else, as I haven't tried to use the seos/360 combo down that low. The 360 response looks to be ok down there, but the recommended is 1khz or higher. I am not looking into JBL, so if you go that route, it would be a fresh start for you Im afraid.
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post #81 of 599
2/11/13 at 8:24am
I'm going to add my 2c on some of the stuff brought up:

1. I have a solution to the side-by-side vs MTM debate...do both. I would actually suggest dual TD10X's above and below the SEOS24 (total of 4 woofers per speaker). This gives the best horizontal directivity match and a nice tight vertical lobe without being too tight. It also allows for a sligthly higher crossover point providing more flexibility. The only downside I see is the higher cost. This is an uber system though right? biggrin.gif

2. I would definitely suggest trying a hybrid DSP active setup. Something like a Hypex PSC2.400, iNuke 1000DSP, Peavey IPR 1600 DSP per speaker would work very well. The crossover between the mid and high on the BMS coax would be passive. The passive would be primarily used for dividing and phase. The DSP would divide between the woofers and the CD coax and do the heavy lifting for EQ for the whole speaker. Having DSP eq for the bass region is a really nice benefit. More in-depth explanation of approach: http://musicanddesign.com/HybridDesign.html

Bhazard, I saw you mentioned using the BMS coaxes on the smaller SEOS horns. There is no point in doing that. The main advantage of the BMS coaxes is the ability to play down to ~500hz from a single point source while still providing good response above 10khz. The smaller SEOS horns were designed to use 1" exit CDs because high quality 1" CDs can cover 900hz and above just as well (actually better in some ways) than the BMS coaxes.

Edit:

Also for surrounds I would stick to full passive 3-way. The additional cost is IMO not worth it. You could also probably skip the MTM portion but that is more of a budget question.
Edited by coctostan - 2/11/13 at 8:39am
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post #82 of 599
2/11/13 at 8:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I have no idea as to how you figure a 500/1000 wpc amp that cost over $4,300 bucks is "The best value/performance out there". I used to have a 400 wpc Sunfire amp that I sold several months ago because I could not tell the differences between it and my Behringer EP4000, for use as powering my mains. I am still on the fence as to whether or not all modern day amps/dacs/pre-amps/ect...sound the same, but in all absolute honesty, when level matched and switched back and forth, I could not tell any difference between the two. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, I just don't think it is right to say that a $4k dollar amp is a good value when there better and/or similar amps out there for much less money.
Amp debates are way to controversial so you feel like you feel and I understand. I know alot of people completely agree with you.smile.gif The value I am referring to comes from comparing same quality to quality or apples to apples. D-sonic is comparable to W4S AND Sunfire. The $4300 is for 7 channels of 500/1000 wpc costing less than $625. per channel. To me thats a great deal. Other mono block style amps in this catergory come in from $1000. - 1500. per channel. For the money I dont think pro audio amps can be beat. For me 7 monoblocks in one chasis weighing in at 50 lbs total with one dedicated 20amp circuit is just to sweet of a situation to pass up. Just remember there is more to an amp than total rated watts. wink.gif I will keep the snake oil to myself.biggrin.gif
Chris
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post #83 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Very cool, I have never seen them. I do like the look the second Baffle board as well, it gives it a little something...wonder what it would look like if we shopped two more 15s on top biggrin.gif

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post #84 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:07am
"wonder what it would look like if we shopped two more 15s on top"

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post #85 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Bhazard, I saw you mentioned using the BMS coaxes on the smaller SEOS horns. There is no point in doing that. The main advantage of the BMS coaxes is the ability to play down to ~500hz from a single point source while still providing good response above 10khz. The smaller SEOS horns were designed to use 1" exit CDs because high quality 1" CDs can cover 900hz and above just as well (actually better in some ways) than the BMS coaxes.

That's where I hit a wall. I would go SEOS-24, but I don't have the physical space to implement them up front. I would need something with similar controlled directivity that can play lower, but in a smaller footprint.

So far, the only thing that works in that footprint would be the XT horn. A designed crossover network would then have to come into play. Hybrid would be nice to implement, if the bms stock passives work well enough.
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post #86 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:16am
Looks familiar... smile.gif




Well hey, this now belongs in a thread for once. biggrin.gif Should I make some any updates wrt the layout or anything before the big install?
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post #87 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:17am
"Bhazard, I saw you mentioned using the BMS coaxes on the smaller SEOS horns. There is no point in doing that."

why not? if the horn loses directivity at the same rate as the woofer, it is still a directivity match even though the horn is technically losing pattern control.
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post #88 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:26am
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post #89 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'm going to add my 2c on some of the stuff brought up:

1. I have a solution to the side-by-side vs MTM debate...do both. I would actually suggest dual TD10X's above and below the SEOS24 (total of 4 woofers per speaker). This gives the best horizontal directivity match and a nice tight vertical lobe without being too tight. It also allows for a sligthly higher crossover point providing more flexibility. The only downside I see is the higher cost. This is an uber system though right? biggrin.gif

2. I would definitely suggest trying a hybrid DSP active setup. Something like a Hypex PSC2.400, iNuke 1000DSP, Peavey IPR 1600 DSP per speaker would work very well. The crossover between the mid and high on the BMS coax would be passive. The passive would be primarily used for dividing and phase. The DSP would divide between the woofers and the CD coax and do the heavy lifting for EQ for the whole speaker. Having DSP eq for the bass region is a really nice benefit. More in-depth explanation of approach: http://musicanddesign.com/HybridDesign.html

Bhazard, I saw you mentioned using the BMS coaxes on the smaller SEOS horns. There is no point in doing that. The main advantage of the BMS coaxes is the ability to play down to ~500hz from a single point source while still providing good response above 10khz. The smaller SEOS horns were designed to use 1" exit CDs because high quality 1" CDs can cover 900hz and above just as well (actually better in some ways) than the BMS coaxes.

Edit:

Also for surrounds I would stick to full passive 3-way. The additional cost is IMO not worth it. You could also probably skip the MTM portion but that is more of a budget question.

Thanks for chimming in, I was hoping you would! I like the idea of duals above and below..any reason we can't go larger on the woofers and still reap the benefits?? I would love 2 15s above and 2 below, but don't want to fight myself with physics if it makes things difficult. I think I like the idea of passives for the CD and active from the woofer to the CD's passive more and more as I read and think. I also agree with the simplicity of full passive surrounds being worth the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post



Yeeeeeesssssss! I love it!!! the four woofer arrangement is the cats a$$. Spend my $$!!!!
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post #90 of 599
2/11/13 at 9:50am
you guys are crazy and it is awesome. biggrin.gif
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