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PlayStation 4: Geared toward Home Entertainment - Page 5

post #121 of 237
2/15/13 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I will be at the Sony event on the 20'th, reporting on it for AVS. I'm in agreement with you. I want to hear about a complete system with specs and features and a release date.

Looking forward to it!
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post #122 of 237
2/15/13 at 6:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

again why not use it for games? What about exclusives?

If it's multi platform, I'll look into which version is better. From reading if it's out on both, xbox version usually is superior. But PS3 offers free online play, so if has a excellent multiplayer mode and don't have gold live account, that's worth considering.
your quite right there. It's usually the multi platform games that are on the 360 that look best, although there is that odd game where the PS3 is superior. But then you can usually sacrifice sound quality if you go for the 360 as it only has 5.1, whereas the PS3 has DTS HD Master Audio.

It'd be interesting to see what the comparisons are like between the next Xbox and Playstation.
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post #123 of 237
2/15/13 at 7:14am
PS4 controller prototype?
http://www.destructoid.com/what-the-hell-is-this-the-new-playstation-controller--244985.phtml





Edited by 8mile13 - 2/15/13 at 5:31pm
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post #124 of 237
2/15/13 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

PS4 controller prototype?
http://www.destructoid.com/what-the-hell-is-this-the-new-playstation-controller--244985.phtml



Probably functionally equivalent early proto but it looks way too crude, way too 'from-the-90s' design to be anywhere close to the final one - I expect something way more refined, clean, functionally AND aesthetically nice design from Sony.
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post #125 of 237
2/15/13 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Probably functionally equivalent early proto but it looks way too crude, way too 'from-the-90s' design to be anywhere close to the final one - I expect something way more refined, clean, functionally AND aesthetically nice design from Sony.
Nah! If it's comfortable using games, I'm all for it. Lol.
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post #126 of 237
2/15/13 at 9:19am
Just to go back to the Graphics talk. I personally believe that Sony would be best served building a full media centre rather than spending most of its budget upping the graphics. I'm by no means an expert, but I think that a cheaper system that can control all of a teenagers (most likely primary target) media will do better than an expensive hardware heavy graphics beast. Personally, there is more to gain this way than whatever marginal graphics gains would be made. Maybe I'm not enough of a "Gamer", but a prettier game doesn't make me want to go out and buy a new system (especially after building a HTPC with a main concern of playing NES and SNES games). Now that being said, I'm not looking for a $400 software update. Hardware and graphics upgrades are a must, but cannot be another $750 system like the PS3 was at launch.
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post #127 of 237
2/15/13 at 9:52am
That's it.
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post #128 of 237
2/15/13 at 11:05am
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Originally Posted by DongTeamSetup View Post

That's it.

Huh?
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post #129 of 237
2/15/13 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fido2 View Post

Just to go back to the Graphics talk. I personally believe that Sony would be best served building a full media centre rather than spending most of its budget upping the graphics. I'm by no means an expert, but I think that a cheaper system that can control all of a teenagers (most likely primary target) media will do better than an expensive hardware heavy graphics beast. Personally, there is more to gain this way than whatever marginal graphics gains would be made. Maybe I'm not enough of a "Gamer", but a prettier game doesn't make me want to go out and buy a new system (especially after building a HTPC with a main concern of playing NES and SNES games). Now that being said, I'm not looking for a $400 software update. Hardware and graphics upgrades are a must, but cannot be another $750 system like the PS3 was at launch.

$750 in Canada? Damn.. US was $500 for the base.

I think what your describing goes along more with the rumors for the MS system code named Durango. Not as much of a leap in gaming tech but more focused on other aspects. Where as the rumors indicate the PS4 "Orbis" is going for top end graphics again (top in console world), though with even more of disparity than this gen. I personally would prefer Sony's approach, focus mainly on the best gaming. That said, it is all just rumors at this point .
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post #130 of 237
2/15/13 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

$750 in Canada? Damn.. US was $500 for the base.

I think what your describing goes along more with the rumors for the MS system code named Durango. Not as much of a leap in gaming tech but more focused on other aspects. Where as the rumors indicate the PS4 "Orbis" is going for top end graphics again (top in console world), though with even more of disparity than this gen. I personally would prefer Sony's approach, focus mainly on the best gaming. That said, it is all just rumors at this point .

Ill be disappointed if this is the case. Ive owned both a 360 and a PS3, and definitely preferred the PS3. If the PS4 doesn't meet my requirements, I'm not even sure Id bother with MS's offering since I went through 5 360's due to RRoD.
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post #131 of 237
2/15/13 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fido2 View Post

Ill be disappointed if this is the case. Ive owned both a 360 and a PS3, and definitely preferred the PS3. If the PS4 doesn't meet my requirements, I'm not even sure Id bother with MS's offering since I went through 5 360's due to RRoD.

I would imagine PS4 will have all the PS3 has and then expand upon it. Just sounds like MS maybe taking quite a different approach, focusing on Kinect.. Maybe Windows 8 integration as well. Nobody really knows, just rumors.

That's another aspect, the 360 was probably the worst console in terms of reliability in console history by far leading to a very frustrating experience. I've owned both as well and just got fed up with the 360 as well as having to pay for playing online when Sony's solution is far better.
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post #132 of 237
2/15/13 at 12:31pm
Always fun to speculate. After this discussion, I think that if the Sony prices them outside of my comfort zone, I may just end up buying a higher end video card ($300) for my HTPC and retain high end gaming with my networking ability. I'll lose a lot of the online community that comes with the types of games I play with friends, but in the end the money will talk louder.

Either way, I look forward to the annoucement on the 20th. Hopefully its more than "PS4 is coming 3rd quarter 2014 - specs to follow".
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post #133 of 237
2/15/13 at 12:32pm
Thread Starter 
That's why the PS4 is a story worth following, whether or not you are a gamer. Sony's approach tends to skew towards the high-end. The adult PS3 owners I know bought theirs for the Blu-ray player as much as anything. Over the years the hard drive capacity of the PS3 is the main thing that changed. Now it's easy to imagine a terabyte hard drive or larger in a console. With that kind of storage plus better graphics including 4K video, the PS4 could be a challenge to higher-end media servers. The PS3 already enjoys the status of being the first to carry Netflix 1080p with Dolby Digital + soundtrack. I would think they carry on the tradition of being a premium platform for media playback, not just games.

For gaming, I have a DIY PC for a top-quality visual experience. However I'm open to innovation, a significantly better controller would tempt me, as would smooth 1080p 3D graphics in my favorite games. More than anything what I want out of the PS4 is a silent, fast, energy efficient multi-tasking console that makes everything look and sound as good as possible and grants fast, easy access to that media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

I would imagine PS4 will have all the PS3 has and then expand upon it. Just sounds like MS maybe taking quite a different approach, focusing on Kinect.. Maybe Windows 8 integration as well. Nobody really knows, just rumors.

That's another aspect, the 360 was probably the worst console in terms of reliability in console history by far leading to a very frustrating experience. I've owned both as well and just got fed up with the 360 as well as having to pay for playing online when Sony's solution is far better.
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post #134 of 237
2/15/13 at 12:38pm
Indeed.

I'm sure it will be more than PS4, specs to follow. I'd be highly shocked. We'll get some fake CGI gameplay videos of Killzone 4 wink.gif I actually expert some real time stuff for gaming and possibly 4k video playback, perhaps 48fps 1080p or 4k 48fps as well.
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post #135 of 237
2/17/13 at 11:16am
I don't care if Sony squeezed a UHD film into 10 GB's of storage. It's how a true 10bit UHD master looks on a big 10 bit UHD screen or 10 bit UHD projection system after encoded to H.265 at adequate bitrates is all that matters.

Anybody see the video (and audio) quality in a controlled environment like a premium, professionally calibrated home theater? Naaah, didn't think so. It's all PR speak at this point. They were also showing a Skyfall trailer and pushing it as "4k." Skyfall was shot on current Arri Alexas. The Alexa only captures at 2k right now (the 4k upgrade has not been released yet). The Amazing Spider-Man's workflow was rendered out at 2k even though the live action material was shot at 4k in order to save the S/FX render time and budget (just like The Hobbit). Those were upconverts Sony was showing. Not true 4k content. Big difference. Sounds like something Monster Cable would pull.
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 2/17/13 at 11:30am
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post #136 of 237
2/17/13 at 12:04pm
Thread Starter 
Double the pixels translates to a 50% increase in resolution. It's the same incremental increase in resolution as going from 720p or 1080i to 1080p. A lot of people have a hard time differentiating between those resolutions. I do not, and I believe I'd be able to see 2160p if I had a 60+ inch screen in my system but I know it would be a marginal improvement. The law of diminishing returns is already in full effect. Artifacts are one thing, but 1080p does not exactly lack detail. Re-sampling algorithms are very effective - there is more to 4K than just being able to access pure, uncompressed, unadulterated unobtainium. Processing still matters, if current 1080P content can be displayed better at 2160P - something I know is possible based on 20 years of working in Photoshop - then I am all for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I don't care if Sony squeezed a UHD film into 10 GB's of storage. It's how a true 10bit UHD master looks on a big 10 bit UHD screen or 10 bit UHD projection system after encoded to H.265 at adequate bitrates is all that matters.

Anybody see the video (and audio) quality in a controlled environment like a premium, professionally calibrated home theater? Naaah, didn't think so. It's all PR speak at this point. They were also showing a Skyfall trailer and pushing it as "4k." Skyfall was shot on current Arri Alexas. The Alexa only captures at 2k right now (the 4k upgrade has not been released yet). The Amazing Spider-Man's workflow was rendered out at 2k even though the live action material was shot at 4k in order to save the S/FX render time and budget (just like The Hobbit). Those were upconverts Sony was showing. Not true 4k content. Big difference. Sounds like something Monster Cable would pull.

Edited by imagic - 2/17/13 at 12:22pm
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post #137 of 237
2/17/13 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Double the pixels translates to a 50% increase in resolution. It's the same incremental increase in resolution as going from 720p or 1080i to 1080p. A lot of people have a hard time differentiating between those resolutions. I do not, and I believe I'd be able to see 2160p if I had a 60+ inch screen in my system but I know it would be a marginal improvement. The law of diminishing returns is already in full effect. Artifacts are one thing, but 1080p does not exactly lack detail. Re-sampling algorithms are very effective - there is more to 4K than just being able to access pure, uncompressed, unadulterated unobtainium. Processing still matters, if current 1080P content can be displayed better at 2160P - something I know is possible based on 20 years of working in Photoshop - then I am all for it.

But we're not only doubling 1920x1080p, we're going from 8 bit, 4:2:0 to (hopefully) 10 bit, 4:2:2 (or greater) depth with an increased color gamut. That must also be taken into consideration on both bitrate and storage space needed. One must also consider that besides Sony pushing 2k master content as 4k (as I described above), that the H.265 video files may only have been 8 bit consumer, not 10 bit, which might have accounted for the smaller, 50GB+ file size besides compressing the video half to death.

I'm not just advocating for UHD video resolution, I'm pushing for at least 10 bit, 4:2:2. 8 bit video is not just a dinosaur, it's a freakin' single-celled amoeba!
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post #138 of 237
2/17/13 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
I can't argue with that. I'm all for smoother gradients and increased gamut, bring it on. Luckily significant improvements in both those specs don't impact file size as much as raw pixel count. I've shot and edited enough video to know this - most people have never even seen 1080 at its full potential. When they do see it, as on the Sony demo with the up sampled video, they are blown away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

But we're not only doubling 1920x1080p, we're going from 8 bit, 4:2:0 to (hopefully) 10 bit, 4:2:2 (or greater) depth with an increased color gamut. That must also be taken into consideration on both bitrate and storage space needed. One must also consider that besides Sony pushing 2k master content as 4k (as I described above), that the H.265 video files may only have been 8 bit consumer, not 10 bit, which might have accounted for the smaller, 50GB+ file size.

I'm not just advocating for UHD video resolution, I'm pushing for at least 10 bit, 4:2:2. 8 bit video is not just a dinosaur, it's a freakin' single-celled amoeba!
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post #139 of 237
2/17/13 at 4:22pm
OK, let's stop for a sec - Arris' ALEXA records files that are nothing short of amazing quality RAW footage, period.
First, 4K studio transfers are much better quality than ****** publisher re-scans.
Second that ALEXA has a DR of 14 stops, even if it shoots at 2K and Skyfall was pretty awesome quality, you must admit.
Third, most Digital Cinema theaters are still running with 2K projectors.
Lastly, even IMAX is (dual-projected) 2K, remember.

DP of Skyfall Deakins about shooting with ALEXA (he had the first units, 3 different models): http://www.arri.de/news.html?article=1095&cHash=2d1a22f2b0c8d8d913d5a02ad190234e
Quote:
"I did side-by-side testing and found that there was so much more latitude in the file from the ALEXA than in a 4K scan of a film negative. I was also drawn to the subtle fall-off to highlights and the enormous amount of detail in the shadows. It was the first digital camera I had seen where I thought the technology had crossed the knife edge and taken us into a new world."

How the IMAX version has larger AR due to ALEXA's taller RAW format: http://www.daveonfilm.com/how-the-imax-version-of-skyfall-was-created-10519.html
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post #140 of 237
2/17/13 at 4:32pm
So it seems here's the answer for playing incompatible PS3 games on the new PS4: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57569773-235/playstation-4-to-stream-games-in-real-time-over-net-says-report/

Streaming makes perfect sense though I Sony will offer streaming-only movies too... Movies Unlimited, anyone?
TBH I'm still having problems trusting SOny's ability to deliver bullet-proof online services... I tested Music Unlimited, it's a very nice catalog except half the time the Android app couldn't connect to their servers which also means even Offline MOde refused to work (WTF???), eventually convincing me to forget subscribing altogether ($5/mo only gives you PC-based streaming, mobile streaming and Offline Mode requires the $10/mo tier)... Sony's forever issue: execution.
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post #141 of 237
2/17/13 at 6:01pm
As I'm reading and re-reading certain techie blogs, some are speculating... speculating, mind you... that the PS4 might actually have a BD-XL drive included for up to 128 GB quad-discs (for just in case). Those could hold an entire 2 hour plus average length movie with 10 bit UHD video at better than "just good enough" H.265 bitrates, and an advanced object-oriented movie soundtrack from what some industry types are whispering.

That would be a big step in the right direction as long as the entire BDA is on board with using BDXL discs for UHD Blu-ray, rather than it being solely for PS4 games. Now, let's see the actual specs...
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post #142 of 237
2/17/13 at 9:08pm
Hopefully it can output DTS Neo X for fully 11+ channels of surround for film viewing and or gaming.
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post #143 of 237
2/18/13 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ace1970 View Post

Hopefully it can output DTS Neo X for fully 11+ channels of surround for film viewing and or gaming.

DTS Neo X is a post processing matrix algorithm, not a discrete surround format or compression codec.

We should be looking for a good object-oriented format, which actually has both discrete channels (called sound "beds") and individual sound effects files that can be controlled (panned) with minute precision via metadata. Kind of like having the original sound mixer doing his or her stuff in real-time for everyone's unique room layout.

That does not mean that regular channel-based soundtracks, that are not remixed as object-oriented soundtracks, can't still be encoded with DTS Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD for backwards compatibility with current decoders with UHD media.
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post #144 of 237
2/18/13 at 8:50pm
New slogan "Jump out", ouch MS: http://www.shacknews.com/article/77865/jump-out-a-history-of-playstation-in-ads
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post #145 of 237
2/19/13 at 3:04am
Honestly. Using brilliant maskots like Crash Bandicoot to get us to buy something. How could they wink.gif
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post #146 of 237
2/19/13 at 3:18am
Day before the expected announcement. Shall we have a game and see who can guess closest to announced specs?
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post #147 of 237
2/19/13 at 5:17am
Thread Starter 
My guess is that a dedicated app for iOS and Android allows users to control some games with their phone or their tablet, including motion sensing, touch and photo/video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fido2 View Post

Day before the expected announcement. Shall we have a game and see who can guess closest to announced specs?
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post #148 of 237
2/19/13 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

My guess is that a dedicated app for iOS and Android allows users to control some games with their phone or their tablet, including motion sensing, touch and photo/video.

You can already do that with PS3 and Xperia phones and tablets.
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post #149 of 237
2/19/13 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fido2 View Post

Day before the expected announcement. Shall we have a game and see who can guess closest to announced specs?

I thought that's what this thread was?
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post #150 of 237
2/19/13 at 7:19am
Thread Starter 
Exactly. But that's a bit limiting. Expand it to iOS and all of Android and that's a whole different story. Can you say 'Ultimate Karaoke Machine' with a straight face?
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

You can already do that with PS3 and Xperia phones and tablets.
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