2 Good Subs > 1 Great Sub for HT? And more questions. - Page 2

Any system that is properly calibrated to Reference Level will be almost inaudible at -55 to -60. I don't know what you've done, (and I sincerely doubt you do either), but you're continual messing with settings you don't understand, using measurements you don't understand, have you in a situation where your system is FUBAR'd.

Just sayin'...

Craig

FUBAR, nice.

I'm talking about listening at -55 to -60 in another, around the corner room, and -55 is almost too high for the sensitivity of my wife's hearing. FYI, our main speakers have sensitivity ratings of 100db and the center channel is rated at 99db.

Nothing is FUBAR, and as hard as it is for you to deal with, at this point, I actually do know what I'm doing. I could totally break the system down, move it to another location and expect to get similar results; scientific principal. And I do love the acronym. I was explaining the meaning of this particular acronym to my wife the other day because it was used in a movie and at that time I told her how much I like this particular acronym. Thanks for injecting it's use in this response. It made my day.

I oft wonder about people's insecurities who make it a point to continually try to openly tear other people down. I bet it's a tiring endeavor to build themselves up in this fashion. Thanks for your thoughtful input.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/10/13 at 5:44pm

Full Scale Reference Level is 105 dB from the mains and 115 dB from the LFE channel. Listening at -60 dB means you're listening at an average level of just 45 dB. That is BARELY above background noise levels. IOW, it is "almost inaudible." If your system is truly "more listenable" at -60 on the MVC, there is only one way that is possible... and that is for you to have completely F'd up the calibration. There is no way you can possibly be properly calibrated AND be able to "comfortably listen" at -60.

{Shakes head}

I'm reminded of 2 old cliche's:

1. You don't know know what you don't know.

and

2. A little knowledge is dangerous.

FUBAR'd is exactly the correct description here. Whatever you've done, you've definitely F'd up your calibration beyond all recognition. It may sound more "listenable", but it is definitely incorrect.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 2/10/13 at 6:15pm

That's right. Well, I'll give you this, you got the room reading correct. I went out, bought a sound meter calibrator and couple of different additional sound meters. The last sound meter purchased has a noise floor of 30dB and is calibrated at 94dB, 1kHz, within 0.1dB of it's rating. Not too shabby.

The Radio Shack meter has a noise floor of 50dB.

The next meter has a noise floor of 40dB.

And the last meter purchased, because the above meter wasn't sensitive enough was purchased because it has a noise floor of 30dB. And yes, the readings are in the 43dB to 45dB range. Nothing odd about that as that's right in at spec and yes, I did take time to do the simple math like you did above. And to make sure, I ran the MVC up to check readings at higher volume levels and they all checked out. Sorry, nothing is messed up.

To address your comment, yes, -60 is getting "soft" but it's quite amazing to sit and be able to easily understand dialogue at -60 on the MVC. And sitting around the corner in the dining room, while using the laptop, my wife does enjoy listening to background music and yes, the volume is at -60 to -55. Sorry to read your hearing is in such bad shape and with all your head shaking, I hope your neck's okay.

Tomorrow the two week waiting period is over and I can bring REW out for some play time.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/10/13 at 6:43pm

define good vs. great.



I've not read all the responses - only the first post and since this is a subjective question - I'll provide my subjective response.

I'd personally take a single top shelf "great" sub over a pair of "good" subs.


Case in point I owned a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras (bash 750 watt amp) - by all accounts a good or even great subs. I heard a single JTR Captivator at the KC subwoofer meet I hosted in 2011 and couldn't beat the feeling I knew I preferred a single JTR over my pair of SVS. The moment I popped the JTR subs out of the box and compared them directly to the SVS - I knew for certain I'd made the right decision!

That said I DO prefer a pair of subs --- just have to save a bit longer and buy two...

~

signed,

A very enthusaist owner of a pair of JTR Captivators.
They truly remain my favorite purchase even 1.5 years after purchase.

alright I went back and read a couple posts to see what others were recommending and see the typical beeman vs. the world convo going on instead of actual discussion on the subject at hand...

Don't you get tired of taking beatings man? Beeman you've got something mixed up here and I think I know what it is. Let's get this straightened out. In your AVR you probably have a volume setting of relative or absolute. I'm guessing you have it on absolute, and it should be on relative to be communicating the same language with the rest of the crowd on this forum.

I just tested my theory and and 55 to 60 is a comfortable volume on absolute, but the way the rest of the gang here is talking in terms of reference volume if you are using relative volume. So I think you guys are just talking apples to oranges.

Craig john is absolutely right, -60 (relative to reference) would surely be inaudible in the adjacent room, and very quiet in the room you are in, but then 60 on your dial is probably quite reasonable volume. Try to find that setting and toggle it.

85dB - 60dB would be 25dB and likely barely above the noise floor in your room. We are talking the level of a fairly quiet computer fan at 25dB. The noise floor in most rooms is somewhere between 30 and 50 --- depending on home, location, furnace, traffic etc.

BTW -- it doesn't matter what sensitivity your speakers are in all likelyhood. That's what channel trims are for. A setting of -12 or so placed by Audyssey should put them in check so that reference remains at reference level. Even if you don't like what Audyssey does with EQ - run it to set trims and distances and just turn EQ off.

The scale is set to reference: –79.5dB – 18.0dB : Display ---dB (Min), in the range –79.5 dB to 18.0 dB.


Don't hold me accountable for other people's need to continually drag threads around as right now, in your above, you're doing what you accuse me of.

Again, the room has been properly measured by a properly calibrated sound meter and the MCV setting and the volume at main listening position all match. I know this is a hard concept to grasp but not everybody has hearing that's been destroyed and for some of us, our hearing still works and some here are just going have to stop and wrap their think around this salient point.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/10/13 at 7:05pm

Interesting insight Jonathan, and you may well be correct. However BeeMan has historically been insisting on "THX Reference" which categorically dictates the "relative" scale. If he has switched to the "absolute" scale and not realized it, or if he did realize it and just didn't communicate it, that is yet another indication of his fundamental lack of understanding of the terminology and its importance when trying to communicate with others.

Craig

If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning. -Robert McNamara

You expect people to sit back and watch/read your incorrect posts? If you were correct then there would be no need to continually correct you. You don't see others being corrected near as much,why is that do you suppose? We just decided to pick on you?

There are others that get corrected as much as him...I won't say names

BeeMan, try to take these guys advice. I did and now I enjoy my set up way more! Also even if your speakers are highly sensitive, if you calibrate them properly you still shouldn't be able to hear much if nothing at all at -60dB... I'll let Craig, Archae, Sputter, + whoever else wants to chime in to explain the rest:)

Actually that would make sense for what he's finding, since he's comparing it to his old numbers. He didn't find 15db or 20db, his volume setting changed for comparison.
Most people try and balance their system and when it's balanced (mains/subs) folks tend to play louder. When it's not blended very well people tend to reduce the volume because it can 'sound out of sorts' as the volume goes up.
Reducing his volume would be assbackwards to what most people try to achieve.

Here are a couple posts by Dennis Erskine

"Film calibration is max dB at 105 dB (LFE is 115 dB).
Speakers calibrated to -20dBFS, or 85 dB.
Softest sound recorded is 22 dB. Total available dynamic range is then 83dB.
Very, very few residential systems have the ability to reproduce 105dB at the listening positions meaning only a very small minority have (1) actually experienced the full dynamic range available; and, (2) have systems capable of doing so without distortion at the upper end or having the bottom end washed out by ambient noise in the room.

As an observation for those with larger rooms, you cannot achieve full dynamic range at the seating locations with 1" dome tweeters you find on consumer speakers. Well, perhaps, I shouldn't say "never"; but, plan on blown tweeters. To get high frequencies out to any distance, you'd need compression drivers or horns."

"While we were the first to be able to record to 0 DC with a flat FR from 0 to 22kHz, there is a playback limit inherent to the noise floor and distortion in the playback chain. While we have built a few rooms which have noise floors to 18dB, very, very few recording and mix environments have noise floors below 20dB. (As I recall the Stag Theater at Skywalker is at 17dB). In the end, attempting anything below 22dB is wasted time, effort and money. I'll need to go back to a dusty stack of standards documents to see if 22dB has been referenced as a standard, however, 22dB is the reference minimum used in quality sound tracks production. Whispers, leaves blowing in the wind, etc. can be at that level. Considerable content is recorded between 22dB and 33dB.

Edit:
There are films which have dynamic ranges in the 105 and greater range. These have included Jurassic Park and the Last Action Hero. I believe this is true with Batman returns; but, I'll need to research that one."

From this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1169057/measuring-dynamic-range-in-movies

Maybe you can hear voices at -60, but there is a large amount of the overall soundtrack that will be inaudible/lost in the room noise floor. I find that with a calibrated system with a properly treated room to bring down resonances in the time domain and unwanted high gain early reflections that listening at high volume levels is much more enjoyable. My wife used to not like it turned up saying it was too loud. Upon taming the room and educating her on soundtrack dynamics, OSHA's occupational noise exposure levels, and showing her the numbers on the rat shack during movie passages, she enjoys up to -8 from reference on movie night.

I like multiple subwoofers.

With flat pack kits readily available now, it really takes the work out of building a sub cab. Just an option.

If for the peace doing so would bring, I truly wish I could but research and practical factors have shown me that's not a good idea. When followup research proves the accuracy of what they're taking me to task on, then and only then will I agree to do what they suggest. Thanks for the suggestion.


I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply but I didn't know that I wasn't enjoying success in my efforts or the use of our system. As to sensitivity, these are horn loaded speakers that throw their sound into a room. Yes, it makes a difference and yes, despite what some want to claim, sensitivity is based on a 2.83v input, not theory and how sound is perceived at the main listening position includes the nature of how sound is/isn't EQ'd in a room, room acoustics, the matched nature of speakers, matched speaker sensitivity, the design of the speaker (the ability to project sound into a room) and finally, the listener's sensitivity to sound. Poorly integrating reproduced sound into a room's acoustics will cause reproduced frequencies to roll over themselves and when sound is done properly, reproduced sound will get out of it's own way or what others might refer to as clean sound. Yes, I realize this term is in dual use and includes line noise. English is a dual use language, get over this point.

Forgive me as the previous comments are generalizations and are not intended to be an exhaustive list or a definitive description.

Another point, the bad advice surrounding the use of sound meters, "A" weighting vs "C" weighting, why each weighting has a purpose and the when and why the use of each is appropriate and why when each weighting is used improperly, each will give false readings as "C" weighting is not intended to be used all the time, at all SPL levels when measuring full spectrum speaker output and it's in bad form to do so.

I also find it ironic that folks will use uncalibrated sound meters to calibrate their room analyzing programs with. I find it entertaining to read how sound meters are not EQ devices when I never said they were as this myth is intentionally carried forward in a libelous or malicious fashion but ironically, an EQ device would not be able to function sans the presents of a sound meter as the EQ device is co-dependent on a sound meter being a part of the measuring process and the accurate implementation of a SPL increase or reduction at a given frequency or range of frequencies.

If someone other than myself want's to believe their advice is good, I say good for them and as an autodidact, my recommendation to all, read posted advice and do your homework. Research the reality of the issues and if afterwards, anybody wants to post different than what manufactures or meta studies have to offer, I say good for them. Why? Here, scientific principal is not being followed as the advice being shared for my benefit, clearly lacks the requirement of repeatability and instead, is given in the spirit of "Kentucky Windage," with no knowledge of which direction the wind is blowing.

What I don't understand is how you guys will willfully drag a thread off topic and then blame me for what you guys are intentionally guilty of. At this point, because you guys have become so disruptive to the topic of the thread, I'll have to step out. My recommendation, stop dragging threads off topic and stop blaming me for participant's propensity to drag threads off topic.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/11/13 at 5:45am

If this will help, I'll try.

Stating the obvious, sound bounces around in a room and in the process, reflecting sound waves run into each other or join up with complimentary frequencies and in the process, create peaks, mounds, standing waves, nulls, dips and any other phenomenon one wishes to mention that messes with one's efforts to obtain the flat graph ideal all while these reproduced sound waves interact (conflict) with the naturally occurring room acoustics one is blessed with. In general, more subs help smooth out the bass end of this acoustical conflict with two being better than one and four being better than two and placement being paramount to all. Then to add to the mix of one sub vs two or more subs is the synergistic affect of co-location, room reinforcement, parametric settings, asymmetrical placement, WAF, corner loading, children, pets, neighbors, et cetera. To that, one adds their personal equipment choices, along with sound recordings, room geometry variations, room accoutrements and the blending of all the strong/weak points as one strives in their endeavors to successfully achieve reference level sound.

And then someone innocently comes along and asks a simple question regarding recommendations as to going with one or two subs. Sounds easy enough.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/11/13 at 6:15am

Mounds?

It's a 'depends' answer. If you're looking for ~15hz then a pair of 20hz subs won't do it. There is a lot to be gained by having multiple subs but you need to sort out what your expectations are first. Once you have that sorted out then you can consider ways to achieve that goal. imho

Comparing price isn't comparing results. If you have accurate specs you can make definitive comparisons. First you need SPL charts, to be sure that the subs being compared have similar response. Then you need to know the excursion capability (xmax) of the drivers used. In simple terms two drivers with 10mm xmax will equal one driver of the same diameter with 20mm xmax, two drivers with 12mm xmax will beat one driver with 20mm xmax. Then there's the all important room mode issue. Two subs will smooth room modes, one sub won't. The smoothing of room modes is such a significant aspect than even if the combined xmax of two 'lesser' subs is less than that of one 'better' sub the end result can still be better with the two.
The challenge for those trying to make objective comparisons is finding SPL charts and xmax values. Most manufacturers don't supply charts and won't tell you xmax; IMO manufacturers who refuse that information are those with something to hide.

Yup!

You know mounds? as in "Almond Joy has nuts Mounds don't"

Hmmmmmmmm.........
(Emphasis added.)

Craig

And we know which one you think I resemble.

I guess you don't understand the difference between "tool" and the act of using a tool in a "process." Yes, a sound meter is a tool used in the EQ process and does help with equalizing the final output. Rational people understand these differences and the intent of what I was communicating. A sound meter is not the final word in what EQ'g does yet in the same vein, without aid of a sound meter, one can't EQ their system and know definitively, what the final result is going be. No sound meter, no EQ as the EQ'g process is totally dependent on a sound meter being available to measure SPL's. Even at the expense of others, even if wrong, you always try to be right.

In this case, despite my consistent efforts at clarification to honestly and sincerely correct your misunderstanding of what I posted, you're simply not able to admit you're wrong. And yes, I do understand why and it's okay.

And just for the record, you're continuing to drag the thread off topic so I don't want to be blamed for your propensity (or need) to drag threads off topic. I've tried directly responding to the OP's question and you guys keep trying to make the thread about me instead of the thread's topic and then I'll get blamed for you and others efforts to continually drag the thread off topic.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/11/13 at 8:13am

I would contact both companies, explain your room layout and size (you need to include the square footage of the kitchen and hallway since the room these are going in are not sealed) and explain your expectations. See what they tell you. Two subs are not always better than one it depends on if the subs are even capable of playing to under 15hz with any authority. From the measurements that are posted about the XS30 on the PSA website, I think duals would do this (assuming you have some placement flexibility and your room is not poor for accoustics). Personally, I would lean towards two XS30's myself, but there is not much information out there about them and not many in-room measurements posted by owners.

Captivator and Seaton Submersive seem to crush at every get together out there, but budget is budget.

I think everyone here would appreciate it if you practiced what you preached.

Then stop making personal comments on my behalf. Don't make thread comments about me and I'll have no reason to respond as your above comment is personal in nature and in being so, intentionally drags the thread off topic while encouraging so called, unwanted, personal interaction. The point, don't blame me for your behavior because you feel it necessary to cause trouble every time I make a comment in a thread you don't like. A suggestion, like i try to do, stick to the OP's subject matter, don't be a distraction, leave personal references to me out of your conversation and none of this disruption will take place.

Just saying.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/11/13 at 7:43am

I wonder if Dunning and Kruger have subscribed to this thread.