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2 Good Subs > 1 Great Sub for HT? And more questions. - Page 3

post #61 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

define good vs. great.

cool.gif

I'd personally take a single top shelf "great" sub over a pair of "good" subs.


Seems to fly in the face of convention... Basically your saying one (as an example) one JTR Captivator 2400 > 2 PSA XV30. Captivator = $2400 and 2 PSA XV30 = $2600 with multi sub discount or there abouts.


Not saying your wrong at all...just trying to figure things out. It is for sure what I believed for a long time ...but from reading here sound theory does not seem to support it... Or I could be wrong in how i read these posts too. smile.gif

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

My example is one of capability and sound quality. Two identical subs will almost universally sound and measure better than one in a typical home theater environment with multiple listening positions - assuming similar distances from the listening positions, specifically mlp and assuming no issues with phase or time delays. But, put plainly --- My experience was and is that the Seaton Submersive HP, or JTR Captivator is such a step up in performance that I'd take one of these two over a pair of $1000'ish sub and just deal with a slightly less desirable frequency response outside my mlp.

Objectively

Two SVS PB13's in my room double stacked in a corner could cleanly hit 115dB on dubsteb at the main listening position as measured by a radio shack spl meter on c weighting, slow response. Two JTR Captivators in my room one on the left side of the screen and one on the right (NON CO-LOCATED) could cleanly hit 125dB on the same dubstep songs at the same main listening position as measured with the same spl meter on the same day during an A/B session. The guy I did this testing with purchased my used SVS anyway - because he was plenty happy with the SVS output (115dB was more than he needed) and he felt the SVS met his needs. To me there was no contest of which I preferred and I dreaded doing the comparison because I figured I'd lose the potential sale. To further the gap - that testing was done with the pair of Caps pair powered by a single EP4000 amp - 2ohm stereo. I've since purchased a Crown XLS-5000 which provides an additional several clean dB on top of the EP4000. I also run the crown in 2ohm stereo.

Subjectively

I immediately liked the JTR Captivator sound quality better than the SVS from the very first moment I heard them, and on every occasion there after. I moved the SVS pair all over the room, tried co-locating, every corner, every spot along the wall for 1.5 months of tinkering nearly daily to try to find the sound quality I liked. This was before I had measuring gear - so I was just moving them and trying, moving and trying. The moment I popped open the box on the JTRs I purchased and played them from the middle of the room in eagerness - I immediately knew this is the subwoofer for me. Putting the subs up on l and r of the screen next to my left and right channels (as shown in my signature pic) just made them sound all the better! The tremendous spl capability of the JTR was just obscene bonus. In my opinion - the JTR isn't just a single step up from the SVS or HSU or Empire or for that matter any $1000 sub I've heard. Perhaps if a sub was just a single step up - two of a good would best one of a great. My biggest complaint for the typical $1000 offerings is about the time you start really cranking them up and starting those forced grins is about the time they start running out of headroom/clean sound and entering into compression which kills off/dampens the low note feel. I'll admit I like my sound louder than many, and desire the ability to have car audio type levels of bass with the sound clarity found with great home audio.
Edited by Archaea - 2/11/13 at 6:15pm
post #62 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My example is one of capability and sound quality. Two identical subs will almost universally sound and measure better than one in a typical home theater environment with multiple listening positions - assuming similar distances from the listening positions, specifically mlp and assuming no issues with phase or time delays. But, put plainly --- My experience was and is that the Seaton Submersive HP, or JTR Captivator is such a step up in performance that I'd take one of these two over a pair of $1000'ish sub and just deal with a slightly less desirable frequency response outside my mlp.

Objectively

Two SVS PB13's in my room double stacked in a corner could cleanly hit 115dB on dubsteb at the main listening position as measured by a radio shack spl meter on c weighting, slow response. Two JTR Captivators in my room one on the left side of the screen and one on the right (NON CO-LOCATED) could cleanly hit 125dB on the same dubstep songs at the same main listening position as measured with the same spl meter on the same day during an A/B session. The guy I did this testing with purchased my used SVS anyway - because he was plenty happy with the SVS output (115dB was more than he needed) and he felt the SVS met his needs. To me there was no contest of which I preferred and I dreaded doing the comparison because I figured I'd lose the potential sale. To further the gap - that testing was done with the pair of Caps pair powered by a single EP4000 amp - 2ohm stereo. I've since purchased a Crown XLS-5000 which provides an additional several clean dB on top of the EP4000. I also run the crown in 2ohm stereo.

Subjectively

I immediately liked the JTR Captivator sound quality better than the SVS from the very first moment I heard them, and on every occasion there after. I moved the SVS pair all over the room, tried co-locating, every corner, every spot along the wall for 1.5 months of tinkering nearly daily to try to find the sound quality I liked. This was before I had measuring gear - so I was just moving them and trying, moving and trying. The moment I popped open the box on the JTRs I purchased and played them from the middle of the room in eagerness - I immediately knew this is the subwoofer for me. Putting the subs up on l and r of the screen next to my left and right channels (as shown in my signature pic) just made them sound all the better! The tremendous spl capability of the JTR was just obscene bonus. In my opinion - the JTR isn't just a single step up from the SVS or HSU or Empire or for that matter any $1000 sub I've heard. Perhaps if a sub was just a single step up - two of a good would best one of a great. My biggest complaint for the typical $1000 offerings is about the time you start really cranking them up and starting those forced grins is about the time they start running out of headroom/clean sound and entering into compression which kills off/dampens the low note feel. I'll admit I like my sound louder than many, and desire the ability to have car audio type levels of bass with the sound clarity found with great home audio.

Newbie01,

I agree with Archaea on this one... one Submersive, optimized for the MLP would likely have more output and better sound quality than a pair of $1K subs. (I have no first-hand experience with any of the JTR subs, but from all accounts, they are very excellent performers and the same can likely be said for them.)

I think you need to define what your goals are for your subwoofer system. There are several end points you can chase, but each one adds expense. The endpoints are:

1. High SPL output
2. Deep LF extension
3. Flat, (or easily tailored), frequency response.

Multiple subs will provide 1 and 3. A single "better" sub will provide 1 and 2, (and 3 can be achieved at the MLP with EQ.) Multiple "better" subs will provide all 3, reducing the need for EQ, (but still benefiting from it.)

So, pick your poison and go for it.

Also, allocate some of your budget to getting something to measure your response, especially if you plan to get multiple subs. It is very hard to optimize a subwoofer system by ear. It requires the ability to "see" the response to be able to identify the problems, and ensure the corrective measures you take are effective.

Acoustic treatments will help also.

Craig
post #63 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


My example is one of capability and sound quality. Two identical subs will almost universally sound and measure better than one in a typical home theater environment with multiple listening positions - assuming similar distances from the listening positions, specifically mlp and assuming no issues with phase or time delays. But, put plainly --- My experience was and is that the Seaton Submersive HP, or JTR Captivator is such a step up in performance that I'd take one of these two over a pair of $1000'ish sub and just deal with a slightly less desirable frequency response outside my mlp.

Objectively

Two SVS PB13's in my room double stacked in a corner could cleanly hit 115dB on dubsteb at the main listening position as measured by a radio shack spl meter on c weighting, slow response. Two JTR Captivators in my room one on the left side of the screen and one on the right (NON CO-LOCATED) could cleanly hit 125dB on the same dubstep songs at the same main listening position as measured with the same spl meter on the same day during an A/B session. The guy I did this testing with purchased my used SVS anyway - because he was plenty happy with the SVS output (115dB was more than he needed) and he felt the SVS met his needs. To me there was no contest of which I preferred and I dreaded doing the comparison because I figured I'd lose the potential sale. To further the gap - that testing was done with the pair of Caps pair powered by a single EP4000 amp - 2ohm stereo. I've since purchased a Crown XLS-5000 which provides an additional several clean dB on top of the EP4000. I also run the crown in 2ohm stereo.

Subjectively

I immediately liked the JTR Captivator sound quality better than the SVS from the very first moment I heard them, and on every occasion there after. I moved the SVS pair all over the room, tried co-locating, every corner, every spot along the wall for 1.5 months of tinkering nearly daily to try to find the sound quality I liked. This was before I had measuring gear - so I was just moving them and trying, moving and trying. The moment I popped open the box on the JTRs I purchased and played them from the middle of the room in eagerness - I immediately knew this is the subwoofer for me. Putting the subs up on l and r of the screen next to my left and right channels (as shown in my signature pic) just made them sound all the better! The tremendous spl capability of the JTR was just obscene bonus. In my opinion - the JTR isn't just a single step up from the SVS or HSU or Empire or for that matter any $1000 sub I've heard. Perhaps if a sub was just a single step up - two of a good would best one of a great. My biggest complaint for the typical $1000 offerings is about the time you start really cranking them up and starting those forced grins is about the time they start running out of headroom/clean sound and entering into compression which kills off/dampens the low note feel. I'll admit I like my sound louder than many, and desire the ability to have car audio type levels of bass with the sound clarity found with great home audio.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Newbie01,

I agree with Archaea on this one... one Submersive, optimized for the MLP would likely have more output and better sound quality than a pair of $1K subs. (I have no first-hand experience with any of the JTR subs, but from all accounts, they are very excellent performers and the same can likely be said for them.)

I think you need to define what your goals are for your subwoofer system. There are several end points you can chase, but each one adds expense. The endpoints are:

1. High SPL output
2. Deep LF extension
3. Flat, (or easily tailored), frequency response.

Multiple subs will provide 1 and 3. A single "better" sub will provide 1 and 2, (and 3 can be achieved at the MLP with EQ.) Multiple "better" subs will provide all 3, reducing the need for EQ, (but still benefiting from it.)

So, pick your poison and go for it.

Also, allocate some of your budget to getting something to measure your response, especially if you plan to get multiple subs. It is very hard to optimize a subwoofer system by ear. It requires the ability to "see" the response to be able to identify the problems, and ensure the corrective measures you take are effective.

Acoustic treatments will help also.

Craig

Newbie01,

 

IMO...

 

2 vs 1 depends on primarily two key factors; how big is your room (or how much room gain does your room exhibit) and how loud do you like to listen to movies/music.

 

IMO, sound quality is largely a function of a subs frequency response in a room, its group delay/transient response (ability to stop/start), and it's distortion profile;when listening a your personal max volumes.

 

If you have a small room with a lot of room gain, or you never listen to movies/music that loud, 2 less priced subs would generally be > 1 expensive sub. Why? Because the 2 subs have a capability of generating a flatter frequency response than just 1, and you are playing the subs at a level where they are not being stressed, and no audible distortion is occurring.

 

Take the same two subs in a large room, or a room that does not have a lot of gain, or you like listening to movies/music very loud, 1 expensive sub would be > 2 less expensive subs. Why? Because as you increase the volume of the 2 less expensive subs, their distortion will increase. This distortion may not sound 'bad' and not even be termed by your natural ear as 'distortion', but adds some sonic character to its sound that sounds more 'stressed' compared to the expensive single sub that you feel like continuing to turn it up because it sounds better and better.

 

Even though you may have achieved a flatter frequency response with the two subs, the single sub ends up sounding better (better sound quality) because it's sonic character doesn't change as the output continues to increase compared to the duals. Again, I go back to the example of: "I keep turning it up, and it just sounds better and better". That's why folks say, headroom (low distortion at high volumes) is king. It trumps a flat frequency response that can't achieve the output for your personal preference.

 

Where does extension fit in to all of this? IMO, secondary to both factors above. However, if you took either scenario above and compared it to the exact same scenario except the new scenario had deeper extension? Obviously extension would come out on top.

post #64 of 129
Thread Starter 
I have read and read...until I am blue in da face.

I read some more. I went back and forth...and forth and back on my budget.

After all this reading and enough PM's to kill a mule....

Well I am 92.431818% sure I am going Rythmic FV15HP. I would have loved to go with the SubMersive HP but just cant swing it.

I was really debating between two HSU and the Rythmic but a few things weighted my decision:

First...I think everyone agrees that HSU and Rythmic are great subs...don't want to take anything away from them:

I have heard the HSU and the Rythmik in person. Both times I could not really audition them... For the few min I heard them I would have to say it was like a football player doing a 500 pound jerk ...and a dancer picking up the same 500 pounds while doing a pirouette. Both lifted the 500 pounds in the end. (Please understand I was auditioning speakers not subs at the time and did not get to pick anything that would truely test either of these fine subs. All this from a 5 min audition too! So not fair to either of them...)

1) Roughly VTF-3 MK4 DualDrive Package is the same as one FV15HP....which started this whole debate. ( I was also looking at PSA at the time as well.)
2) My room is on the medium side (14x22x8) and open on the left to the kitchen and a hall ...don't think this would qualify as a large room. Although 2 subs will play louder and even out the room...the room is pretty small so should be...ok.
a) Two subs since they are not placed next to each other should give me about +4 db. Since I don't want the BOOM although room pressurization is desired ..I will not corner load my sub(s).
3) Given that I plan to cross over at 60hz or 80hz...I should not have any localization problems.
4) My wife hates BOOM. I sort of like it for HT...but with that being said I really want an accurate sub.
5) Phil 2's are astonding in their accuracy and transparency. They are lacking some on lower bass... I need an excellent quality sub to support the Phil's and blend with them. So I went heavily what was recommended by Phi owners.
6) HSU to Rythmik ...spec by spec and in blind tests...out classes the HSU..even the VTF-15H. Now the HSU is 900 bucks to Rythmik 1200-1300 bucks. That is a good chunk of change. So dollar to dollar I think the are dead heat for price to performance.


So... Any major glaring things I got wrong here? I can always add another FV15HP. I will always lust after teh SubMersive I think...but I just cant swing the extra 1k. Used SubMersive are more rare then snow in hades.
Edited by Newbie01 - 2/13/13 at 3:59pm
post #65 of 129
I don't think you are missing anything. Like you said, the Rythmik is $300-400 more which is a nice chunk of change. If you have it, spend it and get the Rythmik. If your budget was an even $1K, well, the decision would be different. I would do the same thing in your shoes and I owned and really liked a VTF-15H.

Seems like you are making an informed decision.
post #66 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

So... Any major glaring things I got wrong here?

If buying a pair of FV15HP, the one glaring thing that seems to be missing from your commentary, how loud do you need or expect to go and are you meeting this goal with your choice? If your choice is meeting your goal, everything else is just foo-foo.
post #67 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I have read and read...until I am blue in da face.

I read some more. I went back and forth...and forth and back on my budget.

After all this reading and enough PM's to kill a mule....

Well I am 92.431818% sure I am going Rythmic FV15HP. I would have loved to go with the SubMersive HP but just cant swing it.

I was really debating between two HSU and the Rythmic but a few things weighted my decision:

First...I think everyone agrees that HSU and Rythmic are great subs...don't want to take anything away from them:

I have heard the HSU and the Rythmik in person. Both times I could not really audition them... For the few min I heard them I would have to say it was like a football player doing a 500 pound jerk ...and a dancer picking up the same 500 pounds while doing a pirouette. Both lifted the 500 pounds in the end. (Please understand I was auditioning speakers not subs at the time and did not get to pick anything that would truely test either of these fine subs. All this from a 5 min audition too! So not fair to either of them...)

1) Roughly VTF-3 MK4 DualDrive Package is the same as one FV15HP....which started this whole debate. ( I was also looking at PSA at the time as well.)
2) My room is on the medium side (14x22x8) and open on the left to the kitchen and a hall ...don't think this would qualify as a large room. Although 2 subs will play louder and even out the room...the room is pretty small so should be...ok.
a) Two subs since they are not placed next to each other should give me about +4 db. Since I don't want the BOOM although room pressurization is desired ..I will not corner load my sub(s).
3) Given that I plan to cross over at 60hz or 80hz...I should not have any localization problems.
4) My wife hates BOOM. I sort of like it for HT...but with that being said I really want an accurate sub.
5) Phil 2's are astonding in their accuracy and transparency. They are lacking some on lower bass... I need an excellent quality sub to support the Phil's and blend with them. So I went heavily what was recommended by Phi owners.
6) HSU to Rythmik ...spec by spec and in blind tests...out classes the HSU..even the VTF-15H. Now the HSU is 900 bucks to Rythmik 1200-1300 bucks. That is a good chunk of change. So dollar to dollar I think the are dead heat for price to performance.


So... Any major glaring things I got wrong here? I can always add another FV15HP. I will always lust after teh SubMersive I think...but I just cant swing the extra 1k. Used SubMersive are more rare then snow in hades.

I love the FV15HP. I really really do. It was a major contender for me before I went with dual LMS Ultra's. Having heard it extensively at the Northeast October 20th GTG I would recommend it to anyone without question.

With that said, having the chance to hear other offerings side-by-side to the FV15HP, I strongly believe a few extra $$$ for a passive Cap + amplification would please you more. I mean you are already in the "oh, if it's not enough I'll get another one" camp, so one Cap might end up being the cheaper long run solution.

You are going to encounter people that talk out of their asses and blindly recommend gear based on what others post, then you are going to run into people like Archaea who literally plans his "work training schedule" around subwoofer/speaker get togethers. He probably has more experience auditioning subs than 99.9% of the people on this forum, so it's a safe bet to draw from his experiences...

A few months back purbeast was in your shoes. I recommended the Cap until I was blue in the face. He finally drove a few hours to demo a pair. Left with them.
post #68 of 129
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If buying a pair of FV15HP, the one glaring thing that seems to be missing from your commentary, how loud do you need or expect to go and are you meeting this goal with your choice? If your choice is meeting your goal, everything else is just foo-foo.

I honestly dont know Beeman...

I want it loud enough to make me feel a gunshot from a shot gun... Loud enough that when Black Hawk down crashes...the neighbors two doors down are running outside to take a look.

Ok..maybe not that loud but loud enough I get some kind of physical reaction from the bass in the movies. My couch does not need to tip over but I want to feel the pressurization change ...if that makes sense. I don't know how to equate that to loudness though.

I don't want it so loud that when I hear gun shots all I hear is BOOM BOOM BOOM either.
post #69 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I honestly dont know Beeman...

I want it loud enough to make me feel a gunshot from a shot gun... Loud enough that when Black Hawk down crashes...the neighbors two doors down are running outside to take a look.

Ok..maybe not that loud but loud enough I get some kind of physical reaction from the bass in the movies. My couch does not need to tip over but I want to feel the pressurization change ...if that makes sense. I don't know how to equate that to loudness though.

I don't want it so loud that when I hear gun shots all I hear is BOOM BOOM BOOM either.

2 doors down is a lot of sound. If that is really how you want it, make sure you do not rush to buy anything before you make some real decisions on what you need.

Keep cranking,

Robert
post #70 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I honestly dont know Beeman...

I want it loud enough to make me feel a gunshot from a shot gun... Loud enough that when Black Hawk down crashes...the neighbors two doors down are running outside to take a look.

Ok..maybe not that loud but loud enough I get some kind of physical reaction from the bass in the movies. My couch does not need to tip over but I want to feel the pressurization change ...if that makes sense. I don't know how to equate that to loudness though.

I don't want it so loud that when I hear gun shots all I hear is BOOM BOOM BOOM either.

Buy a JTR Passive Captivator and at least a 1,500watt pro amp, watch the under world awakening elevator machine gun scene.

Sooooooo fun!
post #71 of 129
You need two caps or two submersives.
Or to learn and DIY
post #72 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You need two caps or two submersives.
Or to learn and DIY

For $1500 you can do a lot for DIY.. Probably get you really close to what you are looking for.. I like the idea of a pair of passive Caps with a pro amp too..
post #73 of 129
Thread Starter 
I was "kidding" about the two doors down... tongue.gif


I never even looked at the Caps...they were out of my league. I just got done looking at them. I think I want to cry.

I just don't think my budget can take another 1k hit..which is what the Submersive and Caps are above the Rythmik. I will look again though.

Do these ever come up for sale on the used market? Any B stock or something?

Which Cap do you suggest....I take it the S1?

Now I have to sit down...and at least try to figure out...if I can, somehow stretch the budget...which of these I rather have. I am not sure I can do it...but I will look again.

I am not a great DIY guy... I will look at this idea of a passive with an amp..no idea what that is but looking at that too.

/cry

If my wife Bobbitt's me over a Subwoofer... I am coming after all you guys! biggrin.gif
Edited by Newbie01 - 2/13/13 at 7:17pm
post #74 of 129
Read the 2012 blind meet shootout in my Sig.

It compares the three types of caps and the submersives in a blind audition with 9 voting avsforum members.

The ported caps are what I have.


Really what you need to decide is how much volume you want.

I can hit full audible frequency spectrum with my budget jamo sub 650, and while it sounds good, it isn't capable of loud.

This is obviously a made up statistic, but I'd bet two HSUs or two Rythmiks would completely satisfy 98% of the population. Two submersives or caps would satisfy 99.9% and the remaining .01 percent are cats like popalock who plan to go to glorious overkill with sixteen 18" subwoofers.

If you truly want gunshots to sound real the ported caps will get you there. The Rythmiks and HSU will not. The Rythmiks and HSU will sound stellar, but they won't quite get to lifelike. They lack the power, the excursion, and the driver size to get to the high 120, low 130dB range where these types of sounds in recorded media make you exclaim explecitives and feel like you are there in person. Not everybody wants or needs this, at least until you hear it. smile.gif

Next train stop is upgrading your mainspeakers to keep up! That's where I'm at. A pair of Noesis and a pair of caps on the Open Range track will make you run for cover.
post #75 of 129
I would add that in order to really take advantage of the Caps, you have to be a reference level kinda guy. Also, If your wife is in any other part of the house when you want to let the sub stretch its legs, she WILL hear it. This would be true of the FV15HP, and it would be even more true for the Captivator. Archaea didn't you do some damage to your house at a meet with a cap? Or am I thinking of someone else?
post #76 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would add that in order to really take advantage of the Caps, you have to be a reference level kinda guy. Also, If your wife is in any other part of the house when you want to let the sub stretch its legs, she WILL hear it. This would be true of the FV15HP, and it would be even more true for the Captivator. Archaea didn't you do some damage to your house at a meet with a cap? Or am I thinking of someone else?

I remember someone saying they cracked something with an OS i think
post #77 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

For $1500 you can do a lot for DIY.. Probably get you really close to what you are looking for.. I like the idea of a pair of passive Caps with a pro amp too..

+1 IIRC you did you Quad Dayton DVC385-88 15's build + amp for about $1K, right ack?

I think Gorilla did his Quad Dayton HO 18's + amp for about $1,700 or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I was "kidding" about the two doors down... tongue.gif

I really don't think you were kidding. You're hooked bro... haahaha. Welcome to the club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I never even looked at the Caps...they were out of my league. I just got done looking at them. I think I want to cry.

Are the passive Cap's even on the site? Someone correct me if I am wrong, but a passive Cap should run you $1,500 shipped. Should be able to pick up a good pro amp for about $300-$500.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I just don't think my budget can take another 1k hit..which is what the Submersive and Caps are above the Rythmik. I will look again though.

Do these ever come up for sale on the used market? Any B stock or something?

Which Cap do you suggest....I take it the S1?

I prefer sealed subs, but having heard the ported Cap, I'd go that route if I were you. Basing that on the feedback you have given thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Now I have to sit down...and at least try to figure out...if I can, somehow stretch the budget...which of these I rather have. I am not sure I can do it...but I will look again.

I am not a great DIY guy... I will look at this idea of a passive with an amp..no idea what that is but looking at that too.

/cry

If my wife Bobbitt's me over a Subwoofer... I am coming after all you guys! biggrin.gif

I've been Bobbitted on three separate occasions... I've learned my lesson by letting the wife know what I am seeking to reach my goals. "Just want to reach my satisfaction level and I'll quit... I promise I'll quit."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Read the 2012 blind meet shootout in my Sig.

It compares the three types of caps and the submersives in a blind audition with 9 voting avsforum members.

The ported caps are what I have.


Really what you need to decide is how much volume you want.

I can hit full audible frequency spectrum with my budget jamo sub 650, and while it sounds good, it isn't capable of loud.

This is obviously a made up statistic, but I'd bet two HSUs or two Rythmiks would completely satisfy 98% of the population. Two submersives or caps would satisfy 99.9% and the remaining .01 percent are cats like popalock who plan to go to glorious overkill with sixteen 18" subwoofers.

I've always been a bass head. I'm hoping 16 will be overkill for me... Everyone's goals and satisfaction levels are different. My goal is to try to reach my physical limits before my system does...

=)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

If you truly want gunshots to sound real the ported caps will get you there. The Rythmiks and HSU will not. The Rythmiks and HSU will sound stellar, but they won't quite get to lifelike. They lack the power, the excursion, and the driver size to get to the high 120, low 130dB range where these types of sounds in recorded media make you exclaim explecitives and feel like you are there in person. Not everybody wants or needs this, at least until you hear it. smile.gif

No truer words have been spoken. The Rythmic WILL make you happy. However, if you are the type to get the itch and end up going with the Rythmics, do yourself a favor and DO NOT demo other DIY/Captivator/Seaton systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I remember someone saying they cracked something with an OS i think

Upstairs tile grout...lol

Newbie01, OS = Orbit Shifter, which IIRC = the output of two ported captivators. <---Need confirmation here!
post #78 of 129
And hearing sensitivity in the <40dB range isn't being affected with all this >120dB sound going on?

I've been lambasted that I'm not hearing our speakers when the MCV is set to -60 to -55 and yet I listen to our headphones set to 5 on the computer's sound card, master volume control. The point, some of us have sensitive hearing and what I'm asking is how much will this type of SPL, impact sensitive hearing and is someone's hearing being damaged by SPL >120dB? Could the reason these detractors can't hear their systems at -60 to -55, be due to user induced hearing damage; listening to their subs at high SPL's?

.....confused.gif

Currently, the SPL reading in the room is a measured 40.5db and to me, the computer fan is what I perceive to be loud.

I know this comes across as buzz kill (and yes, so as to not be accused of trolling, as are all warnings, it's intended as such) but in the same vein, it's a reasonable question that has to be asked when high SPL's are being recommended. How loud is rational and when does the need for SPL become a downward spiral of sonic doom; hearing damage?

"Noise Induced-Hearing Loss"

And as hearing loss occurs, one needs higher and higher volumes, in order to maintain a minimum perceived hearing standard, so as to compensate for a loss of sensitivity.

Yes, based on the above comments I've read, I'm concerned that folks are damaging their hearing and yes, it's their free choice to do so but in the process, one should also recognize that's what they're doing, recommending SPL levels that empirically have been shown to cause or exacerbate further hearing loss. Just saying.

From here, if someone wants to voluntarily kill their hearing, it's on them and I'll stand down off the community soapbox as other than thoughtfully posting a salient warning, admittedly it's none of my business what another chooses to do with the sensitivity of their hearing.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/14/13 at 4:23am
post #79 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


I know this comes across as buzz kill (and yes, so as to not be accused of trolling, as are all warnings, it's intended as such) but in the same vein, it's a reasonable question that has to be asked when high SPL's are being recommended. How loud is rational and when does the need for SPL become a downward spiral of sonic doom; hearing damage?
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High SPL in the midrange will make you deaf in short order. High SPL in the infra sonics won't. The main reason why is the same that explains why our hearing sensitivity is so poor below 25Hz. The wavelengths are so long that they pass through our bodies with the same ease that they pass through walls, floors and ceilings. That results in less and less differential in the pressure wave that appears on either side of the eardrum as frequency goes down. If the eardrum doesn't move we don't hear anything, and by the same token damage won't occur.
We know that human beings don't actually hear anything below roughly 15Hz, that what we think we hear that low is a combination of tactile sensation and harmonics. We also know that elephants vocalize below 15Hz. Until recently we thought that elephants could hear below 15Hz as well, due to the size of their heads and eardrums. That theory has now been challenged by research that shows they may not hear infra sonics after all, but rather they sense very low frequencies with their feet, as ground conducted sound. That makes sense, as their eyes are so bad they can't even see each other more than 100 yards away, so being able to sense the presence of other elephants via ground conducted infra sonic vibrations over very long distances would be a logical adaptation.
post #80 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

High SPL in the midrange will make you deaf in short order. High SPL in the infra sonics won't.

I wrote of damaging hearing, not of one causing deafness and most movie sound track content is in the >20Hz range. confused.gif

As to elephants, they make up for poor eyesight via an excellent sense of smell and can use this sense of smell to locate water several miles away and even though you're a hundred yards away and they can't see you, if up wind of them, they can smell you..

Can we keep to my concern and the "fact" that high SPL in the >120dB range, does cause hearing damage and not try to blow it off as if I'm hallucinating.

The more damage or desensitization one causes their hearing, the higher they have to increase volume in order to compensate for this hearing loss and then more damage is caused, further increasing the need to increase the volume.

As I posted, if after raising this concern, if someone wants to ruin their hearing, that's on them but I'm concerned when someone tries to blow off a concern. confused.gif

This was my question: "How loud is rational and when does the need for SPL become a downward spiral of sonic doom; hearing damage?"

Are you able to address the above question? The reason I ask, many on AVS tout high SPL levels but I don't read about damage to hearing of complications of high SPL damaging hearing sensitivity and I know that it's going on as one only need look as far as the government sponsored National Institutes of Health to see the truth of what I'm asking about.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/14/13 at 6:36am
post #81 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

And hearing sensitivity in the <40dB range isn't being affected with all this >120dB sound going on?

I've been lambasted that I'm not hearing our speakers when the MCV is set to -60 to -55 and yet I listen to our headphones set to 5 on the computer's sound card, master volume control. The point, some of us have sensitive hearing and what I'm asking is how much will this type of SPL, impact sensitive hearing and is someone's hearing being damaged by SPL >120dB? Could the reason these detractors can't hear their systems at -60 to -55, be due to user induced hearing damage; listening to their subs at high SPL's?

.....confused.gif
rolleyes.gif I had my hearing checked about 6 months ago and it is perfectly normal for a guy my age. There is nothing wrong with my hearing. The REASON I can't hear anything when the MVC is set to -60 is that the volume is TOO LOW to hear it. My system is properly calibrated so that, with the MVC set to 0, I measure 105 dB at the LP with a band-limited pink noise signal. If you are hearing a useful level at -60 on your MVC, your calibration must be incorrect.

And comparing the MVC difference between your computer soundcard and your receiver is useless. They haven't been calibrated the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Currently, the SPL reading in the room is a measured 40.5db and to me, the computer fan is what I perceive to be loud
What does this mean? Are you talking about the background level? If so, a -60 MVC setting should yield an output that is only about 5 dB above the background level, (45 dB). This isn't "higher level math." This is simple subtraction: 105 - 60 = 45 dB This is what I've been saying... if you have a "comfortable listening level" at -60, something HAS TO BE messed up with your calibration. You should barely be able to hear it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I know this comes across as buzz kill (and yes, so as to not be accused of trolling, as are all warnings, it's intended as such) but in the same vein, it's a reasonable question that has to be asked when high SPL's are being recommended. How loud is rational and when does the need for SPL become a downward spiral of sonic doom; hearing damage?

"Noise Induced-Hearing Loss"

And as hearing loss occurs, one needs higher and higher volumes, in order to maintain a minimum perceived hearing standard, so as to compensate for a loss of sensitivity.

Yes, based on the above comments I've read, I'm concerned that folks are damaging their hearing and yes, it's their free choice to do so but in the process, one should also recognize that's what they're doing, recommending SPL levels that empirically have been shown to cause or exacerbate further hearing loss. Just saying.

From here, if someone wants to voluntarily kill their hearing, it's on them and I'll stand down off the community soapbox as other than thoughtfully posting a salient warning, admittedly it's none of my business what another chooses to do with the sensitivity of their hearing.

-
The levels in that linked document are "sustained" levels. In an HT environment, we only hear occasional peaks that are above the "sustained" levels. When you set your system for Reference Level, the "sustained" or average levels are 85 dB or below, and then you are only talking about a 2 hour movie. Momentary peaks can hit 105 to 115 dB, but they're not going to cause the kind of damage that 90 dB for 8 hours will cause. From the article you linked:
Quote:
Long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing loss. The louder the sound, the shorter the time period before NIHL can occur. Sounds of less than 75 decibels, even after long exposure, are unlikely to cause hearing loss.

Bottom line, enjoy your movies as loud as you want. They are unlikely to damage your hearing.

Craig
post #82 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

And comparing the MVC difference between your computer soundcard and your receiver is useless. They haven't been calibrated the same way.
What does this mean? Are you talking about the background level? If so, a -60 MVC setting should yield an output that is only about 5 dB above the background level, (45 dB). This isn't "higher level math." This is simple subtraction: 105 - 60 = 45 dB This is what I've been saying... if you have a "comfortable listening level" at -60, something HAS TO BE messed up with your calibration. You should barely be able to hear it.

Based on what you quoted forward, you don't want to differentiate between desensitization, hearing loss and deafness.

You intentionally ignore what I post as I posted, using a calibrated sound meter, the room reading at -60 on the MVC is 45dB (the simple math checks out) and in the home office, while the computer is operating, background noise is measured at 40.5dB (5dB down from 45dB) and I'm quite easily able to hear what is being measured and quite easily able to hear what the background noise consists of. I posted the computer setting was at 5 and at no time did I post it was a calibrated signal being compared to the Home Theater listening environment. Nothing is messed up with the Home Theater sound system calibration as the math works just fine.

Looks like my wife and I have sensitive hearing and personally, we need to take this into consideration when someone recommends high SPL's. Warning given and to all, good luck with your hearing.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/14/13 at 6:55am
post #83 of 129
Movies are mixed at much higher levels and are intended to be played back at these levels. You missed this quote from Dennis Erskine "Softest sound recorded is 22 dB. Total available dynamic range is then 83dB." If you are listening at these extreme low levels, the ambiance is completely lost. One thing is for sure, there is no need for deep extension and high output subwoofers when you require 55db peaks from your subwoofer.

Passenger car at 65 mph at 25 ft (77 dB); freeway at 50 ft from pavement edge 10 a.m. (76 dB). Living room music (76 dB); radio or TV-audio, vacuum cleaner (70 dB).
http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm
post #84 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Passenger car at 65 mph at 25 ft (77 dB); freeway at 50 ft from pavement edge 10 a.m. (76 dB). Living room music (76 dB); radio or TV-audio, vacuum cleaner (70 dB).

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm

Being retired, I must find time to put my useless time to use and checking out some items on this list will provide entertaining. I have three calibrated sound meters and the most sensitive measures accurately down to 30dB. We live in a mountain community as opposed to urban or rural. Just for giggles, next time we come off the "Ridge," I'll bring the sound meter and check out rural and urban SPL levels.

An aside, the living room music number is totally bogus as the reading is subjective and will be listener dependent, to what level the individual is listening at. The vacuum cleaner number is also totally spurious as it's going depend on the class, age, dust bag level of the vacuum being used, state of maintenance (new, old, oiled, loaded with string around the beater brush), length of carpet, room acoustics and if the beater brush is engaged or not. The point, I notice there's a complete lack of consistency (standard) in the examples given. Irregardless, that's something that can easily be corrected for. biggrin.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/14/13 at 7:17am
post #85 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You intentionally ignore what I post as I posted the room reading at -60 on the MVC is 45dB and background noise, in the office while the computer is operating is measured at 40.5dB, using a calibrated sound meter and I'm quite easily able to hear what is being measured and quite easily able to hear what's making up the background noise. I posted the computer setting was at 5 and at no time did I post it was a calibrated signal being compared to the Home Theater listening environment. Nothing is messed up with the calibration as the math works.

Looks like my wife and I have sensitive hearing and personally, we need to take this into consideration when someone recommends high SPL's.

-
So a "comfortable listening level" to you is 5 dB above the background noise level? What do you do when you get in a car? Noise levels in a car are far higher than 45 dB: http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/10/top-10-quietest-new-cars-revealed-by-which-car-297176/?oo=2703&askid=94b56624-20dc-4e47-a5ec-e1af317baeb0-0-us_gsb

One of the quietest cars on the road, the Mercedes Benz S-Class, has an interior noise level of 63.3 dB. If you turn on the radio in that car, by your standards, it would blow you out of the car. Do you and your wife wear ear plugs when you drive? (BTW, that's illegal.)

Craig
post #86 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

So a "comfortable listening level" to you is 5 dB above the background noise level? What do you do when you get in a car?

That's not what I posted. Again, you intentionally ignore what I post. I posted that I'm easily able to hear the reproduced sound, which I am. Yes, I can easily hear the sound in the room and the calibrated measurements confirm the sound system is properly calibrated. You are so wrong on this issue and need to accept this point. As to road noise, like any rational person, we keep the windows in the up position and deal with the cabin noise and yes, we would like the cabin to be quieter but that ain't gonna happen.

Quote:
If you turn on the radio in that car, by your standards, it would blow you out of the car.

We don't listen to the radio when driving in the car as we find the radio to be an interruption (distraction) to our conversation. In other words, yes, we find the road noise, coupled with the radio to be above our comfort levels and leave the radio off. We do this even if on long road trips. Rarely do my wife and I lack for conversation.

Quote:
Do you and your wife wear ear plugs when you drive? (BTW, that's illegal.)

Now you're randomly making stuff up; straw dog argument technique. Please, let it go.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/14/13 at 7:42am
post #87 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

That's not what I posted. I posted that I'm easily able to hear the reproduced sound. Yes, I can easily hear the sound in the room. You are so wrong on this issue and need to accept this point.
If that's the case, why are you here? All you need is a Bose Wave Radio. Keep the volume turned way down and you'll be just as happy as Gallagher at a farmer's market. You don't need subwoofers or multiple main speakers capable of THX Reference Level. Why bother to spend the money, or the time and angst investigating them if you'll NEVER use their capabilities? confused.gif

Craig
post #88 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

That's not what I posted. Again, you intentionally ignore what I post. I posted that I'm easily able to hear the reproduced sound, which I am. Yes, I can easily hear the sound in the room and the calibrated measurements confirm the sound system is properly calibrated. You are so wrong on this issue and need to accept this point. As to road noise, like any rational person, we keep the windows in the up position and deal with the cabin noise and yes, we would like the cabin to be quieter but that ain't gonna happen.
We don't listen to the radio when driving in the car as we find the radio to be an interruption (distraction) to our conversation. In other words, yes, we find the road noise, coupled with the radio to be above our comfort levels and leave the radio off. We do this even if on long road trips. Rarely do my wife and I lack for conversation.
Now you're randomly making stuff up; straw dog argument technique. Let it go.

-

I tend to agree with craig john. He is talking about movie peaks, which don't come along that often in well recorded movies for good reason. At an average of 85db at reference, -60 would be 25db! What about the audio that is below 85db at reference such as 60db (which as I have pointed out goes much lower)? In fact, find one person who agrees with you that -60 is an acceptable level for reproducing movie soundtracks mixed at reference.rolleyes.gif
post #89 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If that's the case, why are you here? All you need is a Bose Wave Radio. Keep the volume turned way down and you'll be just as happy as Gallagher at a farmer's market. You don't need subwoofers or multiple main speakers capable of THX Reference Level. Why bother to spend the money, or the time and angst investigating them if you'll NEVER use their capabilities? confused.gif

Your above makes you sounds like you're a novice regarding subwoofers. Your comments above lack rational content so there's no need to entertain them.

Additional information on the matter as for speaker systems, THX reference is 85dB to 105dB.

"Sound pressure is measured in decibels (dB). Like a temperature scale, the decibel scale goes below zero. The average person can hear sounds down to about 0 dB, the level of rustling leaves. Some people with very good hearing can hear sounds down to -15 dB. If a sound reaches 85 dB or stronger, it can cause permanent damage to your hearing. The amount of time you listen to a sound affects how much damage it will cause. "

I know nobody here will believe this but the brain "will" Amp up one's hearing if the person listening gives their hearing a chance when confronted by low level sound.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/14/13 at 7:56am
post #90 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Your above makes you sounds like you're a novice regarding subwoofers. Your comments above lack rational content so there's no need to entertain them.

But we do so others can learn something in the process.wink.gif
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