Axiom Speaker Problems/Issues...Help Needed - Page 2

gtp, I was talking about placement of the 60s & you know it as there aren't many placement options with this (or any) CC speaker of which I have no experience, which I confessed to. On my factory visit last summer there happened to be a M60 in their fine anechoic chamber. I witnessed a full frequency sweep & while I'm not an expert, the trace looked pretty darn flat to me all the way across the screen dropping off at the far left end as expected. That's why I believe that there is something else at play here - most probably the room - that can affect all speakers regardless of brand.

'Meaningful' - offer the guy some real, appropriate, helpful advice - like you would with any other brand - rather than bashing & just telling him to unload them & get something else because you personally don't like this brand. Unlike most here, they are 'experts' with the brand over there & just might be able to help out. If the OP doesn't want to - fine - just a friendly, 'meaningful' suggestion from me...

TAM

I think Axiom really takes care of there die hard Axiom or nothing fans. I read over there in several posts where they stated they give Axiom dollars or credit if you help someone purchase Axiom products. And some have posted that they have received credit. Ian also believes in having "plants" on the forums to push Axiom products. Just like JC over at Blu Ray got caught for shilling Axioms without stating who he truely was.

The Polk would probably workout of, its a decent cheap option and would be a step up in dialog clarity compared to the Axiom.

The CS2 Series 2 is a good center, especially at its price. Dual 6.5" woofers in a normal MTM design and it won't have the off axis issues like the 150 does.

'Referral Rewards' are the norm throughout the entire retail world - it is massive. It is ubiquitous & all here have seen it in one form or another - it's just another tool to sell products of all kinds. Heck, my Cable Company does it regularly in their spam emails trying to get new customers. Just because Axiom, along almost everyone else out there, doesn't make it despicable nor sinister..

A poster asks for help with his system & as expected, this thread degenerates into Axiom bashing again. Sad...

TAM

He also asked if Axiom isn't telling the whole story as to protect their image/brand. I wouldn't recommend him wasting his time over there at the Axiom forum because they are just going to talk him into a VP160 or VP180 and will not tolerate him saying the W150 is awful to listen too.

We also addressed the major issues he brough up, like the dual tweeters in the center which cause the speaker to sound really bad. From off axis graphs I've seen at 20 degrees off axis there is almost a 10db drop between 1800-3K and gets even more massive at 30degress. Which is cause by the tweeters on the far ends cancelling each other out at certain freqs. But you guys only see this at a biased attack against Axiom and pure bashing.

The proof is right out in front but you guys continue to ignore it as bashing.

Ex-labdriver- Why is it whenever people @ axiom put down people from avs forum or any others, you never step in and say anything to your fellow axiomites? But if someone says anything negative about axiom, then your all over it. Maybe you should take a step back and look at it from a different angle. As far as referral rewards go, I think as a consumer I want someone who would give an honest unbiased answer so then I could purchase a products that best suits my needs and not someone just trying to get me to buy a product so they can earn bonus bucks for them to purchase more axiom products. I get the feeling that axiom owners have their nose up in the air and think their s*** don't stink, judging from many comments over the years, which can easliy be found. If someone posts a negative comment which was true, then how is it bashing? If the vp 150 has flaws and it's not the best design, why not just say I agree and suggest 1 of axioms better center channels, rather than defend it. Is it not possable that it's not that great? I like paradigm but I don't expect everyone to buy it cause i like it as it might not suit what a consumer might be looking for as far as sound or other requirements.

The OP has measurements taken from a professional/respected calibrator. It is what it is. I know some people like to dismiss measurements, but this is AVS for a reason and the gaps in frequency response and with the comb filtering of the VP150 (which can be and has been measured) are most likely the cause of concern for the calibrator and the OP. The only way to really know how your room and placement is interacting with your speakers is to measure it and then attempt to make corrections.

Saying "well you were happy for years with the gaps in frequency response and poor sound quality of your center channel, why worry about it and just enjoy your speakers" is a cop out. You are ignoring that there is a real issue that is having a negative effect on the sound quality.

It is worth a shot at this point especially since you know it is a stop gap. Can you return the speaker if there is no improvement for a refund?

How would I know if it is a bad design or sounds bad? I've never seen nor heard it so I refrained from commenting on (defending?) something of which I'm totally ignorant - something that perhaps others might want to do. I do know that the 60s normally do not measure -10Db at 200Hz - I've seen it in an anechoic chamber sweep. So unlike virtually all others, I offered a probable cause - possible interaction with the listening environment that is all too common.

As with many products, most consumers are happy with what they purchase & some aren't - it happens all the time & with all brands; however, it doesn't give license to spend years continually mean-mouthing something that in the end is nothing but a subjective choice.

I joined here to provide pragmatic advise & assistance where I might have something meaningful to say & to offer a counter view to the incessant pillorying of certain brands that largely went unchallenged for some time. I have never, ever denigrated anyone else's choice of gear & never will. It's just not constructive nor an honourable way of conducting discussions...

TAM

The main issue isn't the M60 its the OPs W150/VP150 center channel. We offered a probable cause (The VP150 is a bad design), even in the very best room the design does not offer acceptable performance off axis.


Things I purchased with my own money, gives me every right to express how I feel about them. I've never broken AVS rules or most other forums. Its my subjective opinion, just like the "sunshine pumpers" over at Axiom have every right to push Axiom speakers.



Saying that "You were happy with it before" isn't offering advice. Room interactions could be the problem with the M60 and moving them around or listening position could help the problem. Although from my experience and the ever growing list of people the VP150 is just a mess and alot of adjustments, moving ect... Isn't going to solve the issue. The only advice he would get at the Axiom forum is "Buy a higher end Axiom center" "its your room" "contact Axiom" It would be a cold day in hell before they would go along with his idea of the Polk center.

gtp: Well the OP perceived that his M60 issue was serious enough to pack up a couple of big, heavy boxes & pay for shipping back at some expense, so the 150 was not his his only concern.

Just for laughs, I searched VP150 on the net to see what was being said out there as I don't know much about it. I didn't spend a whole lot of time as I'm not interested in it for my own system - I'm happy with my smaller Sony ED CC (horrors, I know) that fits my stand. While there were undoubtedly negative comments from some users, the majority were at least positive (or better) which just reflects what most reviewer/owners have found. This range of experiences is completely normal for any product.

Is the 150 the most wonderful CC in its price range? Will it work flawlessly in every set up? Most probably not on both counts; however, based on what I just saw, it seems to me that it does not deserve to be maligned to the extent that it has been here. It does have its merits in many if not most setups...

TAM

The VP150 was measured by an independent speaker designer and the measurements clearly show the issues it has with off-axis response due to the dual tweeter design. If you read through that thread the measurements are posted for all to see. I also posted the Audioholics article in this thread that explains the best designs for horizontal speakers. Horizontal speakers out of the gate are more difficult to deal with and are less advantageous than vertical speakers, and there clearly are design choices for horizontal speakers that are preferred over others and reduce the limitations of a horizontal design. Dual tweeters on the opposing ends is not one of those designs

If having dual tweeters on opposing ends of a horizontal speaker which so advantageous, don't you think nearly every major speaker company out there would copy the design and use it? Don't you think the DIY community would flock to that design and use it? Aside from sound bars I can't remember seeing another manufacturer ever use this design, and the measurements pretty much show why. And if, for some reason, this design was some revolutionary breakthrough in speaker design why would Axion offer any other design but this one?

At any rate none of this is really helping the OP. I think his ears and his professional calibrator (who also took measurements) are much more telling than anything else.

Might as well get the 20. I am not sure how well they (Polk) will blend with your Axiom speakers since they are very different speakers from each other. But since this is just temporary no harm in trying.

By using the term blend I assume what he really ment to say was timbre match across the fronts....by going with a Polk designed centre & Axiom across the front you'll likely have some voicing issues and other minor nuances to deal with....for the short term I think you could live with...long term maybe not so much. I'm in process of switching out my Axiom surrounds for that reason because the voicing between them and my Ascends is not similar and time to move on.

I personally like the way the axiom M2 and M3s I used for my surrounds blend with the Paradigm Milleniums I use for the front three main speakers (and I have always heard it to mean timbre matches as well). I would look at Paradigm as a replacement...and I would not bother spending money on a "stop gap" speaker, just buy what you want as a final speaker now and start enjoying it (money being available is the key, of course). Paradigm is a well loved company and you cannot really go wrong with them.

I have never used Axioms as the main speakers, but I find they are very enjoyable as surrounds.

What he said. I also am not sure if the Polk will really be worth it. You can see if the replaced tweeter on the axiom makes any difference, and if you are selling your house soon might as well wait if you can.

If the Axiom center bugs you that much, what about local Craigslist used, or local pawn shops for a stop gap center?

As was suggested above, it might be prudent to keep your Axioms when they return & experiment with tweaking & placement until you move to your new house.

Buying speakers piece meal as a stop gap measure might be expensive & disappointing if it doesn't match (blend with) the others. Maybe you can then continue your research at your leisure on a new system & once you get to your new digs, audition them there.

BTW, the W model is an on/in-wall model that is a compromise as contrasted to the stand alone model - they are often sonically challenged regardless of brand. As I understand it, virtually all of these type of enclosures are compromises due to their space-saving cabinets...

TAM

Lsumatt, all horizontal centers are a kind of compromise. Vertical speakers inherently have a much easier time sounding better (in normal rooms). You know what could serve just as well, a regular bookshelf speaker, if you have room for one.

QFT.

Usually just extension and output is compromised. The issues with the driver layout will still be there regardless of in/on wall or full enclosure.


Wow kind of inappropriate.

Excuse my ignorance, but I had to look it up.

NET lingo - QFT - 'Quoted for Truth' (or to be in agreement) or 'Quit F***ing Talking'.

I don't know what to think as it could be taken either way when Axiom's good name is involved...

TAM

I assumed he meant Quote for Truth. Never heard the other definition.

I suppose you're right; however, I took your kind invitation in an older post over at Axiom to search your posts here & came up with your views on the VP150 at that time till the present, as follows:.

2009-2010:

- I by the way love my Axiom M22s and Vp150

- I like my VP150 i'm happy with it and no one is going to tell me that is sounds horrible, I evaluate speakers with my ears not a chart or someones option.

- I use the m22's and vp150 and its awesome for movies, although on this forum alot of people do not like Axioms they seem to be universely hated for some reason.

- Well I own the Axiom VP150 and have been very pleased with it, although a few on here even though they may not have heard it don't like it because of the 2 tweeters, but I haven't had any problems with it

- Axiom M60 towers, VP150 center, and QS8 surrounds would also be a good choice

- I own the Axiom VP150 center and its not a poor performer at all. Blends great with the M22's the only negative thing i've heard about it, is it has a hard time keeping up with the M80 tower speakers and that its grill is kinda flimsy

- I laugh everytime I read AH's reviews of anything. One minute something is the greatest thing ever the next it gets bashed on their forums.
Heres some quotes of them reviewing the Axiom system with the VP 150.
"This is as clean and balanced a center channel as I've ever listened to at this price range."-- Clint DeBoer, Audioholics.com
"The VP-150 center channel sounded very natural: male and female voices were unrestrained and blended perfectly with the rest of the speakers in the system." -- Ray Adkins, Audioholics.com

Then all of a sudden in Oct 2011:

- I've had my Axioms since 2007/2008 and I too because tired of them or just caught a case of upgraditis

- Yeah I have the M22s and VP150 across the front. I think I'm just interested in trying something else out, that and I'm tried of the VP150 which is starting to sound "tinny", and tough to hear dialog

- Yep I agree. I was stupid enought to buy the VP150 a few years ago and was stuck with it until recently. Horrible center channel, you have to be dead center with it pointed right at you to hear dialog, anything off to the sides it becomes hollow and muffled sounding. And no matter how you have it arranged it sounds "tinny" and harsh.

- skip the VP150 is a horrible center channel, VP150 sounds "tinny" and too forward for me, i've had one for 3-4yrs and have decided to get rid of it.

- Worst center channel out there. End of story

- Maybe all us dissatified VP150 owners can get together and stack them up and set them on fire and post it on youtube.
Just joking of course, I prefer to get alittle cash out of it on ebay or craigslist, they buy Bo$e like crazy i'm sure someone will want the VP150.

- VP150 sucks IMO. I had one for 3yrs, it was ok at first but the off axis performance was really bad, which means if you sit off to the sides and not dead center its hard to understand the voices. It also sounds "tinny" or hollow sounding, it has zero bass to it.

I leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions...

TAM

Everyone who buys Bose eventually figures they did something wrong. I'd say that happened to GT. Similar to those who finally upgrade to serious subwoofers and their impressions of their old ones change.