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Help choose my living room setup

post #1 of 49
2/15/13 at 8:21am
Thread Starter 
Hello all,

i'm hoping some of you will take the time to read this long post and can help me decide what setup to get. I already have my Denon AVR 2313 hooked up to two Jamo S708 (now S718 I believe) floorstanding tower speakers. These are low budget speakers, but I love the bass power they have.
At the moment, I'm looking to move out of my parents house so I don't know yet what size the living room is going to be or what the acoustics will be like. However, if possible, I do need some help choosing my future home cinema.

Firstly, i think i want to combine the home cinema with floorstanding speakers (not necessarily my current Jamo's) for better music quality. Should i
  • buy a complete home cinema package containing tower fronts? This however doesn't meet my other demands (see lower in this post) as they usually come with giant center and rear speakers for building a real theatre.
  • buy subwoofer, rear and center speakers (that meet my demands) seperately and use seperate towers as the two fronts?
  • buy a complete home cinema package and somehow add the towers?

I'm assuming it would be the second option: use my Jamos (or probably new, better and better looking tower speakers) as the two front speakers and buy seperate center and rear speakers as well as a powerfull active subwoofer. As my wife-to-be (an interior designer) also has a say in this, they'll need to be stylish as well as the perfomance has to be good. As most newbies, I was initially drawn to the Bose Acoustimass systems. After a lot of research and persuading my other half, I know now that is not what I want. But here's what we like about Bose and what we want our future speakers to have:
- they are tiny and very stylish; especially when mounted on the ceiling. I don't want speakers overtaking the whole room, aside from - two tower speakers and a subwoofer. The living room doesn't need to look like a theatre room.
they sound powerful (i know they're not good quality but some of you have described this as the 'wow-effect' bose wants to persuade you with)
- are they wireless?

I haven't found any other speaker that looks even remotely as good, but as I want better quality, here are my options for center and rear speakers:

A. Similar to bose mini theatre speakers
The only small ones that drew my attention were the Kef KHT 3005SE (Wireless!!), but my Denon AVR might be to powerful? And they don't look like they could be hung on the ceiling. On the ceiling is not really necessary, but it is preferable, and i certainly don't want to put them on the floor or something like this: http://www.jamo.com/speaker-types/home-cinema-systems/?sku=A340HCS7 ("on a stick"). On a shelf? Maybe..
Other suggestions are welcome, but know I don't like the look of small bookshelf looking ones (Wharfedale, Dali,...) , or the small Boston Acoustics ones.
Also, in this case I would definitely want to have tower speakers for music.

B. Flat wall-mounted speakers
Two options:
Klipsch G28 http://www.klipsch.com/gallery-g-28-home-theater
KEF T-series http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/home_theatre_speakers/tseries/overview/
Most people seem to think these kind of speakers come with some sort of audio quality loss, especially for listening music. If this is NOT the case, i might decide to let go of the idea of tower speakers, although it seems likely that these flat speakers won't have too much bass. Or can i rely solely on a powerful subwoofer for this?

C. In-wall or architectural speakers
Three options:
B&W Ci series (most likely CI 700, not CI 800) http://www.bowers-wilkins.eu/Speakers/Custom_Installation/CI_Series/CI-700.html
http://www.klipsch.com/architectural-speakers
http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/in_wall/index.html
This would be my ideal setup: everything stuffed away in the walls, except maybe two fronts and the subwoofer.It seems hard to find them in my region (i know one place) and it's even harder to find how much they cost but they will be much more expensive - i know. Again a lot of people say in-wall speakers have a significant audio quality loss. But they are probably comparing them to regular speakers of the same price range, which are usually huge. If that's the case then again, i might consider not using towers as front speakers, but also in-wall.

I know these are all different price classes, but I don't know yet what my budget will be. I'm thinking no more than 5k (in euros) in case of the in-wall ones, solely for the speakers, as I already have my Denon AVR and TV. Less expensive is always better of course.


Thanks a bunch!!!

Jonas from Belgium.
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post #2 of 49
2/15/13 at 8:49am
The problem with the Bose acoustmas system are two:
1. Sound quality compromises. Small drivers, no tweeters and no real subwoofer. Lots of gaps in freq, etc...but hey, many smaller, satellite systems have these limitations!
2. Cost. You can get the same limited sound quality for alot less!
Now wireless, well, I have heard good things about wireless speakers, but others?
If you need small, the kef you mention would be good, also Orb, or CA Minx system would be options. Get a good subwoofer, however. Lots of small, satellite systems have very limited subwoofers! Klipsch, svs, hsu all make good subs!
2.
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post #3 of 49
2/15/13 at 8:53am
Sorry...on my phone and editing is difficult! I haven't heard good things about wireless speakers, but maybe others have?
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post #4 of 49
2/15/13 at 8:53am
Sorry...on my phone and editing is difficult! I haven't heard good things about wireless speakers, but maybe others have?
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post #5 of 49
2/15/13 at 9:10am
Definitely don't spend €5k on Bose or wireless speakers. I mean, you probably could find some that would cost that much, but they're definitely not going to be worth it. They're making huge compromises to get into such a small package, and quite a lot of the money you'd be paying would be going back into marketing, not production quality or R&D.

You're actually experiencing a pretty common problem. You've got a healthy budget, and you want good sound, but since you're looking at putting it into a living room rather than a dedicated theatre room, you want most of it to stay relatively unobtrusive. I'm in exactly the same boat, as it happens.

What I've personally gone with is the Paradigm S1s as mains and C1 as centre. I'd like to add some in-walls for the side surrounds and in-ceilings for the rears, but my current living room just doesn't have walls in the right place. I'm sticking with 3.1 for the moment as a result. They're not nearly as tiny as the Bose modules, but they're hugely] better sound quality, and they actually look pretty good. With a good sub, I'm not giving up all that much as compared to much bigger speakers. It plays very cleanly through much louder than I'm comfortable listening to for long, which you're definitely not going to get with something like the little Bose drivers.

With a bit of interior design work in the surrounding area, they don't stand out nearly as much as my wife was worried they would. And they're certainly a lot less intrusive than floor-standers would be.

Paradigm also makes some flat wall-mounted speakers that I've had my eye on (Millenia LP), but I haven't had a chance to hear them personally yet. They're actually quite a bit bigger, but since they're flat they could be less intrusive, depending on how everything's set up.

I've been meaning to clean up my living room and take some pics. Perhaps I'll try to get around to that this evening or tomorrow.
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post #6 of 49
2/15/13 at 11:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

Definitely don't spend €5k on Bose or wireless speakers. I mean, you probably could find some that would cost that much, but they're definitely not going to be worth it. They're making huge compromises to get into such a small package, and quite a lot of the money you'd be paying would be going back into marketing, not production quality or R&D.

You're actually experiencing a pretty common problem. You've got a healthy budget, and you want good sound, but since you're looking at putting it into a living room rather than a dedicated theatre room, you want most of it to stay relatively unobtrusive. I'm in exactly the same boat, as it happens.

What I've personally gone with is the Paradigm S1s as mains and C1 as centre. I'd like to add some in-walls for the side surrounds and in-ceilings for the rears, but my current living room just doesn't have walls in the right place. I'm sticking with 3.1 for the moment as a result. They're not nearly as tiny as the Bose modules, but they're hugely] better sound quality, and they actually look pretty good. With a good sub, I'm not giving up all that much as compared to much bigger speakers. It plays very cleanly through much louder than I'm comfortable listening to for long, which you're definitely not going to get with something like the little Bose drivers.

With a bit of interior design work in the surrounding area, they don't stand out nearly as much as my wife was worried they would. And they're certainly a lot less intrusive than floor-standers would be.

Paradigm also makes some flat wall-mounted speakers that I've had my eye on (Millenia LP), but I haven't had a chance to hear them personally yet. They're actually quite a bit bigger, but since they're flat they could be less intrusive, depending on how everything's set up.

I've been meaning to clean up my living room and take some pics. Perhaps I'll try to get around to that this evening or tomorrow.

Don't worry I wasn't planning on buying Bose :-). I thought that wireless might be an issue. I had never heard about Paradigm but they actually seem to have nice speakers, i'll definitely look into that when I find the time!

Thanks for replying and looking forward to your pics!
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post #7 of 49
2/15/13 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

The problem with the Bose acoustmas system are two:
1. Sound quality compromises. Small drivers, no tweeters and no real subwoofer. Lots of gaps in freq, etc...but hey, many smaller, satellite systems have these limitations!
2. Cost. You can get the same limited sound quality for alot less!
Now wireless, well, I have heard good things about wireless speakers, but others?
If you need small, the kef you mention would be good, also Orb, or CA Minx system would be options. Get a good subwoofer, however. Lots of small, satellite systems have very limited subwoofers! Klipsch, svs, hsu all make good subs!
2.

Agreed. And problem #3: the high low frequency roll off of the speakers can result in male voices with a deep register can sound like they are coming from the bass module instead of the speaker located underneath/over the TV.

If you are determined to get small speakers, look at the Cambridge Audio Minx. Then get a good sub to go with them. Here is a discussion thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1339511/cambridge-audio-minx-loudspeaker-discussion-thread. Better choice than Bose.
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post #8 of 49
2/15/13 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Don't worry I wasn't planning on buying Bose :-). I thought that wireless might be an issue. I had never heard about Paradigm but they actually seem to have nice speakers, i'll definitely look into that when I find the time!

Thanks for replying and looking forward to your pics!

Wireless is..... next to unheard of in everything but the most entry-level speakers. It can be used for subs with reasonable performance, but you're just not going to get good quality out of wireless speakers in general. The reason they're hard to find from any good speaker companies is because the wireless is such a drawback that you can basically attach any crappy speaker to it and you'll end up with the same performance as with an otherwise excellent (and expensive) speaker. It's just not worth it.

Paradigm's pretty popular. Their owners' thread here on AVS is the 2nd or 3rd most popular in speakers, so that's saying something. Their Monitor line is quite good value, and their Studio and Signature speakers are excellent and very attractive, in my opinion. They also have a Millenia line that seem quite good for more compact speakers, although I haven't actually listened to those ones. They actually have quite a range of in-wall and on-wall ones too. The Signature in-walls are particularly sexy. If I were doing a full remodelling, they'd probably be at the top of my list. Not sure if that helps, but they can definitely get a very good sound in a very "interior design"-y kind of space. Just requires tearing up some walls, unfortunately.
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post #9 of 49
2/15/13 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

Wireless is..... next to unheard of in everything but the most entry-level speakers. It can be used for subs with reasonable performance, but you're just not going to get good quality out of wireless speakers in general. The reason they're hard to find from any good speaker companies is because the wireless is such a drawback that you can basically attach any crappy speaker to it and you'll end up with the same performance as with an otherwise excellent (and expensive) speaker. It's just not worth it.

Paradigm's pretty popular. Their owners' thread here on AVS is the 2nd or 3rd most popular in speakers, so that's saying something. Their Monitor line is quite good value, and their Studio and Signature speakers are excellent and very attractive, in my opinion. They also have a Millenia line that seem quite good for more compact speakers, although I haven't actually listened to those ones. They actually have quite a range of in-wall and on-wall ones too. The Signature in-walls are particularly sexy. If I were doing a full remodelling, they'd probably be at the top of my list. Not sure if that helps, but they can definitely get a very good sound in a very "interior design"-y kind of space. Just requires tearing up some walls, unfortunately.

Ok thanks! I will forget about wireless. I'll look into the cambridge ones, but the longer i think about it, the more i'm liking the in-wall or flat on-wall ones. Especially in-wall ones.

Do you think, as long as i use an external (as in "not-in-wall" tongue.gif) subwoofer, there hardly will be any quality loss with in-wall speakers? I listen to very different sorts of music, including electronic music where i like to hear quite a lot of bass. Something tells me that in-wall speakers won't be able to perform as well as regular ones. The jamo S708 towers I now own both have a built in subwoofer (the size of which is 10inches or 25cm - i can't find any other floorstanding ones with subs like these) and i'm really loving the power. I would want something similar to that, but i'm guessing i'll need more than one subwoofer? I know that will depend on the size of the room.

And then yes, of course, it would take tearing down some walls...Something tells me it won't be just "making holes in the walls to fit the speakers in. Anyway that would be something i'd let a professional handle. Including making "ditches" for the cables. I can't begin to think where i would put those.

I've got a lot of thinking to do :-)
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post #10 of 49
2/15/13 at 2:07pm
Quicky cellphone pics for now, hope that gives an idea of the general look.

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post #11 of 49
2/15/13 at 2:44pm
The def tech sm350/450 is being discontinued and can be found pretty cheap these days. Really good speaker that hits surprisingly low for a smallish desktop speaker and has clear and detailed highs!
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post #12 of 49
2/15/13 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Ok thanks! I will forget about wireless. I'll look into the cambridge ones, but the longer i think about it, the more i'm liking the in-wall or flat on-wall ones. Especially in-wall ones.

Do you think, as long as i use an external (as in "not-in-wall" tongue.gif) subwoofer, there hardly will be any quality loss with in-wall speakers? I listen to very different sorts of music, including electronic music where i like to hear quite a lot of bass. Something tells me that in-wall speakers won't be able to perform as well as regular ones. The jamo S708 towers I now own both have a built in subwoofer (the size of which is 10inches or 25cm - i can't find any other floorstanding ones with subs like these) and i'm really loving the power. I would want something similar to that, but i'm guessing i'll need more than one subwoofer? I know that will depend on the size of the room.

And then yes, of course, it would take tearing down some walls...Something tells me it won't be just "making holes in the walls to fit the speakers in. Anyway that would be something i'd let a professional handle. Including making "ditches" for the cables. I can't begin to think where i would put those.

I've got a lot of thinking to do :-)

There'd be probably a technical quality loss, but likely not worth worrying about. That is, not that you'd be able to notice, really. Most of the loss in an in-wall is going to be in the lower range, due to lack of space. The biggest issue you're going to have to watch out for is that you've got enough overlap in the crossover area. As long as they'll handle down to around 60ish hz, you'll probably be okay. If you can swing it, in-walls are going to be stronger than on-walls. The internal volume of an in-wall is going to be a lot smaller, a lot more compromised.

You'll need seriously large mains to be able to run properly full range (without a sub). I mean, my dedicated sub is 10 inches, although with quite a lot of amp power. You're not going to generally get much more than 7-inches in even a large floor-standing. Stronger subs are going to be 15- or 18-inches, possibly with multiple drivers and many thousands of amps of power. There's no way you're going to get that built into your mains. That's going to crush anything that you're going to get built in. Unless you're looking to run a really serious 2-channel setup, I've always been of the impression that designing around having a sub (or two) handle that range is going to get you a much better overall experience. You're definitely going to have a lot more available power in that range by going with a proper sub, I wouldn't worry about that.

Yes, the number of subs you'll need is going to depend on the size of the room, and going with more than one is always nice in terms of even coverage. If the room isn't too huge, you can actually get a lot more than you'd expect out of one good one. There are some extremely powerful internet-direct options, and some very sophisticated options from some larger companies.

Anyway, you can get a really good audio setup with in-walls and a nice sub or two. There are definitely some options, just need to prioritize what you really want out of your system.
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post #13 of 49
2/16/13 at 3:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

There'd be probably a technical quality loss, but likely not worth worrying about. That is, not that you'd be able to notice, really. Most of the loss in an in-wall is going to be in the lower range, due to lack of space. The biggest issue you're going to have to watch out for is that you've got enough overlap in the crossover area. As long as they'll handle down to around 60ish hz, you'll probably be okay. If you can swing it, in-walls are going to be stronger than on-walls. The internal volume of an in-wall is going to be a lot smaller, a lot more compromised.

You'll need seriously large mains to be able to run properly full range (without a sub). I mean, my dedicated sub is 10 inches, although with quite a lot of amp power. You're not going to generally get much more than 7-inches in even a large floor-standing. Stronger subs are going to be 15- or 18-inches, possibly with multiple drivers and many thousands of amps of power. There's no way you're going to get that built into your mains. That's going to crush anything that you're going to get built in. Unless you're looking to run a really serious 2-channel setup, I've always been of the impression that designing around having a sub (or two) handle that range is going to get you a much better overall experience. You're definitely going to have a lot more available power in that range by going with a proper sub, I wouldn't worry about that.

Yes, the number of subs you'll need is going to depend on the size of the room, and going with more than one is always nice in terms of even coverage. If the room isn't too huge, you can actually get a lot more than you'd expect out of one good one. There are some extremely powerful internet-direct options, and some very sophisticated options from some larger companies.

Anyway, you can get a really good audio setup with in-walls and a nice sub or two. There are definitely some options, just need to prioritize what you really want out of your system.

The B&W CM7.3 has a frequency range from 43Hz to 28kHz, so that would be a good one? They're quite pricy but i might consider having them (or cheaper CM7.4 or 7.5) as rear and center speakers, and keep cheaper floorstanding speakers as fronts as well as a normal subwoofer (or two). I think that would be my best option, hoping my future house will allow it :-)

Don't you mean that with on-wall speakers the internal volume will be a lot smaller?

Thanks for all your help so far, it's much clearer to me what i want now. I will probably get back to this thread once i find a house and start working in it!

Cheers!
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post #14 of 49
2/16/13 at 3:54am
IMO the B & W speakers are overpriced and don't compete well in quality until you get into their super-expensive speakers (over $10K).

I suggest that you look at KEF and Dynaudio for some excellent speakers that deliver superb sound at fair prices.

For example, a pair of KEF Q700 speakers, a Q200c center speaker, and a pair of Q100 speakers costs $2500 US, and should be about that in Euros. That is a FAR better system than those other speakers.

In Dynaudio, a pair of Excite X32 speakers, a X22 center, and a pair of X12 speakers would be a fabulous system. The cost would be around $4400 US, but should be less in Euros since it is a Danish company and exchange rates should favor you.

99% of inwall speakers are seriously deficient in sound quality, and are not a serious option for someone who appreciates high-quality sound.
Edited by commsysman - 2/16/13 at 4:02am
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post #15 of 49
2/16/13 at 4:19am
Hi there if your gonna mix & match for your ht room better to at least have all front 3 speakers match to have a seamless soundstage coming from the front .(timbre-matching)
Rears important too but less.


Why not try a look at these
http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/products/ci-series/cwt/wt150-lcr/
Or round Inceiling as rears or inwalls like above they sound awesome.
A little insulation of some sort in the shape of enclose behind inwall if there's space good too.
Acoustic ins or rox sal


You can look at they're rx6 which I'm waiting for my black laquor maybe Monday to arrive
And I've had all kinds of brands in my possession or installed.
2 subs best.
A lotta of decent recommendations too .




theaudioguy.ca
Edited by vm8444 - 2/16/13 at 5:23am
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post #16 of 49
2/16/13 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

The B&W CM7.3 has a frequency range from 43Hz to 28kHz, so that would be a good one? They're quite pricy but i might consider having them (or cheaper CM7.4 or 7.5) as rear and center speakers, and keep cheaper floorstanding speakers as fronts as well as a normal subwoofer (or two). I think that would be my best option, hoping my future house will allow it :-)

Don't you mean that with on-wall speakers the internal volume will be a lot smaller?

Thanks for all your help so far, it's much clearer to me what i want now. I will probably get back to this thread once i find a house and start working in it!

Cheers!

Yes, sorry, got my in- and on- switched up there. Shouldn't post after a few drinks on a Friday night, apparently! But yeah, get the house situation sorted out, then maybe post back with a floorplan and you'll probably be able to get some more specific suggestions and ideas. Happy hunting!

Oh, in the meantime, I've had some luck in browsing here: http://www.houzz.com/photos/media-room for ideas. Most of them are way over the top in terms of custom built-ins and such, but they can sometimes give an idea of how in-walls and smaller speakers can be worked into a decor without looking like your room is full of media equipment. I've found it useful to let the wife just browse around and point out looks that she'd be okay with. It can be a good starting point for figuring out how much speaker I might be able to get away with.
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post #17 of 49
2/16/13 at 4:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post


99% of inwall speakers are seriously deficient in sound quality, and are not a serious option for someone who appreciates high-quality sound.

hmm yeah that's what i read before ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

Yes, sorry, got my in- and on- switched up there. Shouldn't post after a few drinks on a Friday night, apparently! But yeah, get the house situation sorted out, then maybe post back with a floorplan and you'll probably be able to get some more specific suggestions and ideas. Happy hunting!

Oh, in the meantime, I've had some luck in browsing here: http://www.houzz.com/photos/media-room for ideas. Most of them are way over the top in terms of custom built-ins and such, but they can sometimes give an idea of how in-walls and smaller speakers can be worked into a decor without looking like your room is full of media equipment. I've found it useful to let the wife just browse around and point out looks that she'd be okay with. It can be a good starting point for figuring out how much speaker I might be able to get away with.

WOW i'm have drooled all over my laptop, those pics are awesome biggrin.gif.
Still no idea what size it's gonna be. We're not going to buy that big of a house so I can't imagine needing a lot more speakers than most people. I can't believe how much me and my girlfriend are talking about this, and we're changing our minds every minute. Anyway, as we both are really busy with our jobs and sports, there will be little time left to put into our house. So we've decided to look for a house that is ready to live in as it is - no reconstruction works or anything, so no tearing down walls.

Here's what my latest idea is (note that i'm ignoring VM8444's advice on matching all three front speakers):

as front left and right: Dali Lektor 8 or Ikon 7 MK2

as front center (maybe also middle left and right): Dali Fazon LCR

as rear left and right (maybe also middle left and right): Dali Fazon Sat

as subwoofer: probably also a Dali one with a good crossover - does this just mean that the there needs to be an overlap between the frequency ranges of the sub and the others? Say if the sub's max frequency is 60Hz, the lowest frequency of the other speakers should be lower than that?

The fazon sats and lcrs have recommended power of max 120W at 6ohms while my avr has 135W at 6ohms. I've read that this is recommended so that the receiver will never really have to go all the way. Thoughts?

Final thought - it seems likely to me that it isn't that good throwing the floorstanding ones into that surround system. Should I maybe go with Dali Fazon LCR for front left, center and right? And leave the towers out of this? Or use Fazon sats/lcrs everywhere for that matter.
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post #18 of 49
2/16/13 at 5:33pm
My wife and I love our inwall James Loudspeakers. Check out their inwalls...

http://jamesloudspeaker.com/index.cfm?page=dealers&c=58

http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/index.cfm?page=inwall
Edited by Hookedonc4 - 2/16/13 at 5:40pm
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post #19 of 49
2/18/13 at 11:01am
Thread Starter 
Hello, i have yet another question. Let's say i want to use floorstanding speakers for music, and a complete surround system (with matching speakers) for watching tv, movies etc. Could i use my avr as a preamp (it has pre-outs) for an extra stereo receiver? How would that work and what do i need to look for in that stereo amp?

I came to this idea when looking for better floorstanding speakers then my Jamos. All of those need power up to 200W or more, and my Denon is only 135. I read somewhere it is better to use speakers that are 'slightly underpowered', so that the amp will never have to go full power to get the most out of the speakers.

Cheers.
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post #20 of 49
2/19/13 at 6:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Hello, i have yet another question. Let's say i want to use floorstanding speakers for music, and a complete surround system (with matching speakers) for watching tv, movies etc. Could i use my avr as a preamp (it has pre-outs) for an extra stereo receiver? How would that work and what do i need to look for in that stereo amp?

I came to this idea when looking for better floorstanding speakers then my Jamos. All of those need power up to 200W or more, and my Denon is only 135. I read somewhere it is better to use speakers that are 'slightly underpowered', so that the amp will never have to go full power to get the most out of the speakers.

Cheers.

Well, there's a couple of things going on there. First of all, in general yes you can use a multi-channel receiver in conjunction with an amp, as long as it has pre-outs. That should work fine, and is a pretty common thing to do. Something like a Emotiva XPA-2 would do well, and is a good way to add some extra power for relatively cheap.

And yes, it's true that you generally want to have more amp power available rather than less. If you reach the limits of your amp, it'll start clipping, which will in turn start to melt your speaker's voice coil. That's bad. However, the thing to keep in mind is that the power number associated with speakers is their maximum input power. They don't necessarily need that much power, unless you're planning to listen very loud. The thing to look at is the sensitivity rating of the speaker. If that's very low, then it'll need lots of power. If it's relatively high, then it'll need less power. For instance, my S1s are rated at 90dB. So with 1 watt of input power, they'll play quite loud. They're rated for up to 100 watts of input power. Here's a calculator for sound pressure levels, which gives roughly 103dB at my seating position. Guidelines for noise exposure put anything over 100dB as "15 minutes or less" daily exposure. Now, live rock concerts can be up to 115dB, so it's not like I'm going to be competing with those levels, but it's realistically more than enough power for most listening.

Looking at bigger speakers, the S8s are rated at 92dB sensitivity. So they'll actually be louder with the same amp power than my S1s, even though they're rated at up to 250 watts input power. They can take a lot more power, but they don't necessarily need it.

I don't want to discourage adding an external amp, because they have a lot of advantages and are a very reasonable way to get more out of your system. I've been looking at adding one myself, as it happens. Just don't think that you need one because your speakers can take more power than your receiver can put out. At normal volumes, you're not going to use more than a watt anyway.
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post #21 of 49
2/19/13 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

Well, there's a couple of things going on there. First of all, in general yes you can use a multi-channel receiver in conjunction with an amp, as long as it has pre-outs. That should work fine, and is a pretty common thing to do. Something like a Emotiva XPA-2 would do well, and is a good way to add some extra power for relatively cheap.

And yes, it's true that you generally want to have more amp power available rather than less. If you reach the limits of your amp, it'll start clipping, which will in turn start to melt your speaker's voice coil. That's bad. However, the thing to keep in mind is that the power number associated with speakers is their maximum input power. They don't necessarily need that much power, unless you're planning to listen very loud. The thing to look at is the sensitivity rating of the speaker. If that's very low, then it'll need lots of power. If it's relatively high, then it'll need less power. For instance, my S1s are rated at 90dB. So with 1 watt of input power, they'll play quite loud. They're rated for up to 100 watts of input power. Here's a calculator for sound pressure levels, which gives roughly 103dB at my seating position. Guidelines for noise exposure put anything over 100dB as "15 minutes or less" daily exposure. Now, live rock concerts can be up to 115dB, so it's not like I'm going to be competing with those levels, but it's realistically more than enough power for most listening.

Looking at bigger speakers, the S8s are rated at 92dB sensitivity. So they'll actually be louder with the same amp power than my S1s, even though they're rated at up to 250 watts input power. They can take a lot more power, but they don't necessarily need it.

I don't want to discourage adding an external amp, because they have a lot of advantages and are a very reasonable way to get more out of your system. I've been looking at adding one myself, as it happens. Just don't think that you need one because your speakers can take more power than your receiver can put out. At normal volumes, you're not going to use more than a watt anyway.

Man, you are rapidly becoming my hero on here. My main goal for the external receiver is to completely seperate music listening in stereo from watching tv in surround. As i would like to keep using the features (airplay etc) from my avr, the preout 'detour' seems the way to go. That emotiva looks nice, but i can certainly do with less power, if i look for speakers with high enough sensitivity right? Because my Denon AVR is black, it would look nicer when paired with a black Denon amp. So I'll take in mind everything you said here, but what kind of audio 'ins' do i need when connecting from the pre-outs from my avr?
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post #22 of 49
2/19/13 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Man, you are rapidly becoming my hero on here. My main goal for the external receiver is to completely seperate music listening in stereo from watching tv in surround. As i would like to keep using the features (airplay etc) from my avr, the preout 'detour' seems the way to go. That emotiva looks nice, but i can certainly do with less power, if i look for speakers with high enough sensitivity right? Because my Denon AVR is black, it would look nicer when paired with a black Denon amp. So I'll take in mind everything you said here, but what kind of audio 'ins' do i need when connecting from the pre-outs from my avr?

There are really only two kinds of connections that you'd have between a receiver/pre-pro and an amp: balanced or unbalanced. Here's a pic of the back of the Emotiva XPA-2, which has both. The section in the middle at the top shows the inputs. The big ones with the three holes labeled "BAL-R" and "BAL-L" are the balanced inputs, and the little ones labeled "Un-bal R" and "Un-Bal L" are the unbalanced. Your AVR has just unbalanced pre-outs, and only for zone 2. That's not too unusual for a receiver, as compared to a separate pre-pro that is always going to be used with an amp and therefore is more likely to have balanced inputs, which are a bit fancier. Any home theatre amp is going to accept unbalanced inputs, I would think.

You seem to be using "receiver" and "amp" interchangeably, but they're not the same thing. An amp will just provide amplification, no other processing. A receiver, on the other hand, will handle a bunch of processing. It would be a waste to go from a receiver's pre-outs into another receiver's "ins". At best, you'd be running in pure-direct mode on the stereo receiver, which would mean you're paying for a bunch of processing features that you paid for. At worst, you'd be processing the signal twice, which is going to potentially be bad for the resulting sound. Essentially, that Denon AVR has 9 channels of processing power but only 7 channels of amplification power. By adding in an external amp, you're able use all 9 channels.

Also note that, as far as I know, Denon only makes one amp, which I believe is around $7,500. It definitely wouldn't be my first choice, no matter how well it matched. Even if you were willing to spend that much on it, there are much better options out there for that kind of money. If you don't like the look of the Emotiva, Bryston and Anthem make some good options as well that aren't unreasonably expensive. Basically all the good options are going to be more expensive than the Emotiva, though. It's a pretty good bargain.

Now, unless they're actually in physically different rooms or something, I don't know that I'd recommend getting 2 completely different speakers for your music listening as compared to your movie listening. I take it that the issue is that your AVR doesn't have pre-outs for anything but zone 2, and you want to add an amp. Is that correct? Adding 2 additional speakers for dedicated stereo listening in the same system as your home theatre seems like it'd be a bit awkward. You'd end up having those 2 and your mains sitting right next to each other, which would be rough from a floorspace perspective. And just from a budgetary efficiency perspective, that's a lot of money tied up in components that can't all be used at the same time. Have you considered just getting a new receiver, instead? One with pre-outs? For the price of two new, good speakers, you could probably pick up a new AVR relatively easily. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something in what you're trying to do, but it seems like you'd end up with some pretty significant compromises.
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post #23 of 49
2/20/13 at 1:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

There are really only two kinds of connections that you'd have between a receiver/pre-pro and an amp: balanced or unbalanced. Here's a pic of the back of the Emotiva XPA-2, which has both. The section in the middle at the top shows the inputs. The big ones with the three holes labeled "BAL-R" and "BAL-L" are the balanced inputs, and the little ones labeled "Un-bal R" and "Un-Bal L" are the unbalanced. Your AVR has just unbalanced pre-outs, and only for zone 2. That's not too unusual for a receiver, as compared to a separate pre-pro that is always going to be used with an amp and therefore is more likely to have balanced inputs, which are a bit fancier. Any home theatre amp is going to accept unbalanced inputs, I would think.

You seem to be using "receiver" and "amp" interchangeably, but they're not the same thing. An amp will just provide amplification, no other processing. A receiver, on the other hand, will handle a bunch of processing. It would be a waste to go from a receiver's pre-outs into another receiver's "ins". At best, you'd be running in pure-direct mode on the stereo receiver, which would mean you're paying for a bunch of processing features that you paid for. At worst, you'd be processing the signal twice, which is going to potentially be bad for the resulting sound. Essentially, that Denon AVR has 9 channels of processing power but only 7 channels of amplification power. By adding in an external amp, you're able use all 9 channels.

Also note that, as far as I know, Denon only makes one amp, which I believe is around $7,500. It definitely wouldn't be my first choice, no matter how well it matched. Even if you were willing to spend that much on it, there are much better options out there for that kind of money. If you don't like the look of the Emotiva, Bryston and Anthem make some good options as well that aren't unreasonably expensive. Basically all the good options are going to be more expensive than the Emotiva, though. It's a pretty good bargain.

Now, unless they're actually in physically different rooms or something, I don't know that I'd recommend getting 2 completely different speakers for your music listening as compared to your movie listening. I take it that the issue is that your AVR doesn't have pre-outs for anything but zone 2, and you want to add an amp. Is that correct? Adding 2 additional speakers for dedicated stereo listening in the same system as your home theatre seems like it'd be a bit awkward. You'd end up having those 2 and your mains sitting right next to each other, which would be rough from a floorspace perspective. And just from a budgetary efficiency perspective, that's a lot of money tied up in components that can't all be used at the same time. Have you considered just getting a new receiver, instead? One with pre-outs? For the price of two new, good speakers, you could probably pick up a new AVR relatively easily. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something in what you're trying to do, but it seems like you'd end up with some pretty significant compromises.

Sorry yes i do know the difference between an amp and a receiver, I just seem to mix them up when talking about them. Maybe it's because english isn't my native language.

I've checked the US Denon site and compared it to the ones from Europe. It seems their range is completely different over here. I normally use the Dutch site, but I used the UK one so you'd understand it. I hope you can access it from the US.

First of all, my Denon AVR 2313 is not the same as it's US equivalent, the Denon AVR 2313Ci. Here's the back side that you probably looked up: http://usa.denon.com/Assets/images/products/AVR-2313CI/EL_de_avr2313ci_e3_bk_re_bg001_hi.jpg
This is the back side of my 2313:
http://www.denon.co.uk/Assets/images/products/AVR-2313/EL_avr2313_e2_bk_re.jpg
and it's product page:
http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=hometheatre&SubId=avreceivers&ProductId=AVR2313

The European version has more pre-outs right?

Secondly, there are more stereo amps available in Europe. I'd be interested in this one (+/-1000euros): http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HiFiComponents&SubId=Amplifiers&ProductId=PMA1510AE
which has only 140W, less than the Emotiva. But if I buy speakers with +/- 92dB sensitivity, that shouldn't be an issue, right? Could I connect my avr to that using pre-outs?

I'll try to explain exactly what I want. Ideally, my surround system would be: two floorstanding speakers as front left and right (which also perform great when listening to music). The front center, mid L&R and rear L&R should be either small or hidden (in-wall). The active subwoofer has got to be decent and doesn't need to be hidden (spoilt for choice).
The problem with this setup in my eyes is matching all those speakers to a complete working system (and looks are important too). I thought it would be better to buy a complete 7.1 (or 5.1 and add two matching satellites) surround system as they match automatically, again all of them either small, flat or hidden. I would then use another amp for stereo listening to music using good floorstanding speakers. As the others are small or hidden and definitely OFF the ground, floor space would be no issue. I wouldn't necessarily place the floorstanding speakers next to my tv; that way, listening to music wouldn't be restricted to the tv-watching area of the living room. And as I'd still want to use the features on my avr, like airplay, i'd use the avr as pre-out. Realizing that it's a lengthy way of listening to music. Also, i will need a phono for a turntable (i know i can use a small phono preamp).

Hope it's a bit clearer now :-). Suggestions of all sorts are welcome!

PS can't believe i don't have to pay you for all this information biggrin.gif
Edited by Qualky - 2/20/13 at 6:11am
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post #24 of 49
2/20/13 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Sorry yes i do know the difference between an amp and a receiver, I just seem to mix them up when talking about them. Maybe it's because english isn't my native language.

I've checked the US Denon site and compared it to the ones from Europe. It seems their range is completely different over here. I normally use the Dutch site, but I used the UK one so you'd understand it. I hope you can access it from the US.

First of all, my Denon AVR 2313 is not the same as it's US equivalent, the Denon AVR 2313Ci. Here's the back side that you probably looked up: http://usa.denon.com/Assets/images/products/AVR-2313CI/EL_de_avr2313ci_e3_bk_re_bg001_hi.jpg
This is the back side of my 2313:
http://www.denon.co.uk/Assets/images/products/AVR-2313/EL_avr2313_e2_bk_re.jpg
and it's product page:
http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=hometheatre&SubId=avreceivers&ProductId=AVR2313

The European version has more pre-outs right?

Secondly, there are more stereo amps available in Europe. I'd be interested in this one (+/-1000euros): http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HiFiComponents&SubId=Amplifiers&ProductId=PMA1510AE
which has only 140W, less than the Emotiva. But if I buy speakers with +/- 92dB sensitivity, that shouldn't be an issue, right? Could I connect my avr to that using pre-outs?

I'll try to explain exactly what I want. Ideally, my surround system would be: two floorstanding speakers as front left and right (which also perform great when listening to music). The front center, mid L&R and rear L&R should be either small or hidden (in-wall). The active subwoofer has got to be decent and doesn't need to be hidden (spoilt for choice).
The problem with this setup in my eyes is matching all those speakers to a complete working system (and looks are important too). I thought it would be better to buy a complete 7.1 (or 5.1 and add two matching satellites) surround system as they match automatically, again all of them either small, flat or hidden. I would then use another amp for stereo listening to music using good floorstanding speakers. As the others are small or hidden and definitely OFF the ground, floor space would be no issue. I wouldn't necessarily place the floorstanding speakers next to my tv; that way, listening to music wouldn't be restricted to the tv-watching area of the living room. And as I'd still want to use the features on my avr, like airplay, i'd use the avr as pre-out. Realizing that it's a lengthy way of listening to music.

Hope it's a bit clearer now :-). Suggestions of all sorts are welcome!

PS can't believe i don't have to pay you for all this information biggrin.gif

Well, I mean, you could pay me, if that'd make you feel better. smile.gif And yes, your 2313 does seem to have the full complement of pre-outs, which is definitely better.

I completely didn't realize that the US (or Canadian, in my case) versions were completely different from the European versions. I guess that's not that uncommon, but I should probably have checked. Now then, that "amp". That's actually an "integrated amplifier", which means it's basically a 2-channel receiver. It's doing a lot more than you'd actually need there, definitely some processing. It isn't what people would generally think of when you talk about adding an amp to a system. It's meant to be the entire system, hence "integrated". So, yes you could connect it, but I definitely wouldn't recommend it.

I've had a quick look at the manual for your receiver. One important note: "It is not possible to play the digital audio signals input from the HDMI terminals in ZONE2. Use analog connections for ZONE2 playback." So that's potentially a pretty big concern, depending on how the rest of your equipment is set up. Additionally, I was unable to determine if the zone 2 pre-outs could be used as additional channels. On the US version, that is clearly stated, but yours doesn't seem to say one way or another. Many receivers won't be able to do that. That is, if you use the zone 2 outputs, even as pre-outs, those will take your rear surround channels, meaning that you'll only be able to do 5.1 for the main listening area.

In terms of "matching" speakers, by far the most important is to have the centre match the mains. Everything else is nice, but probably not noticeable to nearly the same degree. Even with the front soundstage, you've got some flexibility as long as you're not looking for a "perfect" acoustical environment. For instance:
Mains: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/floorstanding/paradigm-reference/studio-series/studio-60
In-wall centre: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-lcr-3
Surround: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-adp
Rear-surround: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-35
or in-ceiling rear-surround: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-15r-30

That "SA" in-wall series actually has a bunch of good options, and seems to be designed to match the Studio series very nicely. That's assuming you're okay with the bit of renovations to do in-wall rather than on-wall. If not, there are several other matching sets that I could point to. The only issue, really, is going to be finding a centre that can keep up with your mains without being too obtrusive. It's a bit of a constraint, but not at all unreasonable.

In the end, it's your system. I just think that you're going to get better results, and a better aesthetic, by not adding the additional complexity of a zone 2 in the same space. Finding matching speakers that look good isn't all that hard, there are some really good options out there.
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post #25 of 49
2/21/13 at 1:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

Well, I mean, you could pay me, if that'd make you feel better. smile.gif And yes, your 2313 does seem to have the full complement of pre-outs, which is definitely better.

I completely didn't realize that the US (or Canadian, in my case) versions were completely different from the European versions. I guess that's not that uncommon, but I should probably have checked. Now then, that "amp". That's actually an "integrated amplifier", which means it's basically a 2-channel receiver. It's doing a lot more than you'd actually need there, definitely some processing. It isn't what people would generally think of when you talk about adding an amp to a system. It's meant to be the entire system, hence "integrated". So, yes you could connect it, but I definitely wouldn't recommend it.

I've had a quick look at the manual for your receiver. One important note: "It is not possible to play the digital audio signals input from the HDMI terminals in ZONE2. Use analog connections for ZONE2 playback." So that's potentially a pretty big concern, depending on how the rest of your equipment is set up. Additionally, I was unable to determine if the zone 2 pre-outs could be used as additional channels. On the US version, that is clearly stated, but yours doesn't seem to say one way or another. Many receivers won't be able to do that. That is, if you use the zone 2 outputs, even as pre-outs, those will take your rear surround channels, meaning that you'll only be able to do 5.1 for the main listening area.

In terms of "matching" speakers, by far the most important is to have the centre match the mains. Everything else is nice, but probably not noticeable to nearly the same degree. Even with the front soundstage, you've got some flexibility as long as you're not looking for a "perfect" acoustical environment. For instance:
Mains: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/floorstanding/paradigm-reference/studio-series/studio-60
In-wall centre: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-lcr-3
Surround: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-adp
Rear-surround: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-35
or in-ceiling rear-surround: http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/in-wall-in-ceiling/paradigm-reference/sa-series/sa-15r-30

That "SA" in-wall series actually has a bunch of good options, and seems to be designed to match the Studio series very nicely. That's assuming you're okay with the bit of renovations to do in-wall rather than on-wall. If not, there are several other matching sets that I could point to. The only issue, really, is going to be finding a centre that can keep up with your mains without being too obtrusive. It's a bit of a constraint, but not at all unreasonable.

In the end, it's your system. I just think that you're going to get better results, and a better aesthetic, by not adding the additional complexity of a zone 2 in the same space. Finding matching speakers that look good isn't all that hard, there are some really good options out there.

Oops sorry for assuming you were American :-). Hmm yeah i guess it's a bit too farfetched to use an extra amp if you can easily match speakers. And it might be a bit too complex for my knowledge. You seem to know what you're talking about so i'll take your word on that.

What do you mean by 'a centre that can keep up'? Does it have to have the same specs in terms of power, sensitivity and/or impedance?

I kinda like the setup you've selected there. As for renovations, I probably won't be knocking down any walls or making any holes in them, but I might be interested in lowering the ceiling (with a wooden skeleton, i don't know how to translate this - we call it a "false ceiling").
Like this http://st.houzz.com/fimgs/bc9146690ef0eb5c_3647-w265-h265-b0-p0--modern-kitchen.jpg or this http://bandinidesigns.com/sysimages/rszimages/Bandini_Portfolio_July_05_040_gal17.jpg
Then i could build the speakers in there. Maybe even a "false wall" behind my tv to build in the centre speaker and to easily hide cables and stuff. It seems logical to me that, when using in-wall speakers like the ones you suggested, without a "casket" behind them, a lot of the sound can be lost inside the wall. Maybe not so much when mounted in a "false" wooden wall?

On-wall still remains an option too though. I won't be making any quick decisions on this matter smile.gif.

EDIT: paradigm isn't really available in my country frown.gif
Edited by Qualky - 2/21/13 at 1:56am
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post #26 of 49
2/21/13 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Oops sorry for assuming you were American :-). Hmm yeah i guess it's a bit too farfetched to use an extra amp if you can easily match speakers. And it might be a bit too complex for my knowledge. You seem to know what you're talking about so i'll take your word on that.

What do you mean by 'a centre that can keep up'? Does it have to have the same specs in terms of power, sensitivity and/or impedance?

I kinda like the setup you've selected there. As for renovations, I probably won't be knocking down any walls or making any holes in them, but I might be interested in lowering the ceiling (with a wooden skeleton, i don't know how to translate this - we call it a "false ceiling").
Like this http://st.houzz.com/fimgs/bc9146690ef0eb5c_3647-w265-h265-b0-p0--modern-kitchen.jpg or this http://bandinidesigns.com/sysimages/rszimages/Bandini_Portfolio_July_05_040_gal17.jpg
Then i could build the speakers in there. Maybe even a "false wall" behind my tv to build in the centre speaker and to easily hide cables and stuff. It seems logical to me that, when using in-wall speakers like the ones you suggested, without a "casket" behind them, a lot of the sound can be lost inside the wall. Maybe not so much when mounted in a "false" wooden wall?

On-wall still remains an option too though. I won't be making any quick decisions on this matter smile.gif.

EDIT: paradigm isn't really available in my country frown.gif

I'd probably suggest starting with a relatively straight-forward system, and then maybe later on, if you're really not happy with the musical performance, start thinking about what you might be able to upgrade. That'll keep the number of decisions you need to make all at once to a relative minimum.

By "keep up", I mean that you don't want to have some speakers totally overwhelming others. So, for instance, if you had the Studio 60s above, something like the little Cinema as a centre is probably not going to be able to handle the same range as the mains, which will sound a bit odd. It also certainly isn't going to go to the same volume. The other thing you want to watch out for is that they have matching tweeters (and ideally, mid-range). Those tend to be consistent within a series of speakers, so all the Studio ones are the same, all the Signature ones are the same, etc. That way, you won't have a weird mis-match when voices are transitioning between the speakers. Essentially, they'll "match" if they're in the same series and they'll be able to "keep up" if they have roughly the same sized drivers. That's a pretty loose definition, but it's a decent enough starting point.

All good in-wall speakers have a matching backing box, which controls the internal volume of the speaker. That is, it makes sure that there's exactly the right amount of air coupled to the drivers, and prevents too much noise from escaping into the wall. They're really part of the speaker, it won't work properly without. That being said, I like the idea of false walls for media rooms. It really does make the wiring a lot easier. If you have the space for it, it's worth consideration.

I'm most familiar with Paradigm, because that's what I ended up going with for my speakers, but that's not much help if you can't get them there at all. What brands does your local/preferred dealer offer? Or what brand would you most prefer to go with? I can maybe poke around their website and see what looks interesting, if that would help.
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post #27 of 49
2/25/13 at 12:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

I'd probably suggest starting with a relatively straight-forward system, and then maybe later on, if you're really not happy with the musical performance, start thinking about what you might be able to upgrade. That'll keep the number of decisions you need to make all at once to a relative minimum.

By "keep up", I mean that you don't want to have some speakers totally overwhelming others. So, for instance, if you had the Studio 60s above, something like the little Cinema as a centre is probably not going to be able to handle the same range as the mains, which will sound a bit odd. It also certainly isn't going to go to the same volume. The other thing you want to watch out for is that they have matching tweeters (and ideally, mid-range). Those tend to be consistent within a series of speakers, so all the Studio ones are the same, all the Signature ones are the same, etc. That way, you won't have a weird mis-match when voices are transitioning between the speakers. Essentially, they'll "match" if they're in the same series and they'll be able to "keep up" if they have roughly the same sized drivers. That's a pretty loose definition, but it's a decent enough starting point.

All good in-wall speakers have a matching backing box, which controls the internal volume of the speaker. That is, it makes sure that there's exactly the right amount of air coupled to the drivers, and prevents too much noise from escaping into the wall. They're really part of the speaker, it won't work properly without. That being said, I like the idea of false walls for media rooms. It really does make the wiring a lot easier. If you have the space for it, it's worth consideration.

I'm most familiar with Paradigm, because that's what I ended up going with for my speakers, but that's not much help if you can't get them there at all. What brands does your local/preferred dealer offer? Or what brand would you most prefer to go with? I can maybe poke around their website and see what looks interesting, if that would help.

Thanks, I'll keep in mind what you said about matching speakers when buying floorstanding speakers as the two fronts. There aren't really any good dealers in the neigborhood that specialize in speakers, but there is a website that offers a lot of different brands:

B&W, Boston Acoustics, Canton, Dali, Energy, Focal, Jamo, JBL, Kef, Klipsch, Monitor-Audio, Polk, Q Acoustics, Quadral, Wharfedale and Yamaha.

As you know I don't really know much about speakers, but having done some research, I am drawn to B&W, Canton, Dali, Kef and Klipsch.

If i'm honest it's maybe better not to start with something really expensive (as you said), so let's say that i would want to spend a maximum of 1500 euros (+/- 2000 dollars if google is correct) on surround speakers + sub and another 1500 euros on floorstanding speakers (just an estimate, you may choose freely within 4000 dollars :-) ). I don't know if i'll be able to get in-walls for that price, the B&W's certainly not :-). Thanks, take as much time as you want to look at them, i won't be making any purchases any time soon!

EDIT: Kef Q700 would definitely be an option if it can be powered by my avr.

EDIT 2: can you give me your thoughts on following setup:

front L and R: Kef Q700 floorstanding speakers
center: Kef Ci9000ACE
rear L and R (maybe middle L and R too): Kef Ci200QL or Ci160QL
sub: Kef Q400b
Edited by Qualky - 2/25/13 at 3:19pm
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post #28 of 49
2/25/13 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualky View Post

Thanks, I'll keep in mind what you said about matching speakers when buying floorstanding speakers as the two fronts. There aren't really any good dealers in the neigborhood that specialize in speakers, but there is a website that offers a lot of different brands:

B&W, Boston Acoustics, Canton, Dali, Energy, Focal, Jamo, JBL, Kef, Klipsch, Monitor-Audio, Polk, Q Acoustics, Quadral, Wharfedale and Yamaha.

As you know I don't really know much about speakers, but having done some research, I am drawn to B&W, Canton, Dali, Kef and Klipsch.

If i'm honest it's maybe better not to start with something really expensive (as you said), so let's say that i would want to spend a maximum of 1500 euros (+/- 2000 dollars if google is correct) on surround speakers + sub and another 1500 euros on floorstanding speakers (just an estimate, you may choose freely within 4000 dollars :-) ). I don't know if i'll be able to get in-walls for that price, the B&W's certainly not :-). Thanks, take as much time as you want to look at them, i won't be making any purchases any time soon!

EDIT: Kef Q700 would definitely be an option if it can be powered by my avr.

EDIT 2: can you give me your thoughts on following setup:

front L and R: Kef Q700 floorstanding speakers
center: Kef Ci9000ACE
rear L and R (maybe middle L and R too): Kef Ci200QL or Ci160QL
sub: Kef Q400b

Had a quick look at those. The Kef floorstanders look pretty good. I'd definitely want to hear them in person, because those co-incident drivers are a tricky bit of engineering. There are some out there that can work very well, but it's not all that common for a reason. It's generally seen as a compromise for small in-walls rather than something to put into a floorstander where you've got plenty of space. It's a neat idea, but I feel like it's probably going to have more drawbacks than advantages. Other than that, the specs look pretty respectable, but that's never the whole story.

The centre looks like it'd probably be okay. The Ci200 looks like it doesn't have a backing box, though, which seems a bit odd. Again, I'd definitely want to hear them in person. At a quick glance, I didn't see a huge number of reviews, at least from bigger outfits. None of them are super efficient, but not the worst either.

I definitely don't like that sub, I wouldn't pay more than about fifty bucks for it. It's 10 inches and 200 watts, that's not really going to put out any noticeable bass at all. There are tons of way better options available than that, including small ones with really nice finishes for aesthetics.
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post #29 of 49
2/25/13 at 11:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidians View Post

Had a quick look at those. The Kef floorstanders look pretty good. I'd definitely want to hear them in person, because those co-incident drivers are a tricky bit of engineering. There are some out there that can work very well, but it's not all that common for a reason. It's generally seen as a compromise for small in-walls rather than something to put into a floorstander where you've got plenty of space. It's a neat idea, but I feel like it's probably going to have more drawbacks than advantages. Other than that, the specs look pretty respectable, but that's never the whole story.

The centre looks like it'd probably be okay. The Ci200 looks like it doesn't have a backing box, though, which seems a bit odd. Again, I'd definitely want to hear them in person. At a quick glance, I didn't see a huge number of reviews, at least from bigger outfits. None of them are super efficient, but not the worst either.

I definitely don't like that sub, I wouldn't pay more than about fifty bucks for it. It's 10 inches and 200 watts, that's not really going to put out any noticeable bass at all. There are tons of way better options available than that, including small ones with really nice finishes for aesthetics.

Ok, thanks! That's too bad because that website only has kef in-wall speakers, except for some other small round ones from other brands. They do have a back box: check the second-to-last one on this page http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/custom_installed_speakers/ci_series/accessories/index.html

I'll keep looking and doing some more research. If I have a new idea, I will post it here. Unfortunately, there aren't many dealers in the neigborhood that offer a big range of speakers and in-wall speakers, except for a couple of those websites, which offer very good discounts too. The shops around here all have about 5 to 10 different speakers to offer.. I'd rather be able to hear them in person, but in many cases that won't be possible for me :-).
Edited by Qualky - 2/26/13 at 12:10am
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post #30 of 49
2/26/13 at 3:34am
Thread Starter 
I have found a dealer (website) in Holland (i'm from Belgium - same language) that delivers almost all speakers from Klipsch. Currently I'm looking at Klipsch RF-82 II floorstanding speakers to maybe build around. What do you think of Klipsch in-wall speakers?
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