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*WOW* ... SVP +1080p Animation = OMG ! (60 frames per second for the win!) - Page 14

post #391 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Haswell iGPU and discrete Radeon HD 7xxx supports 4K 60p output via DP. Haswell / IVB iGPU can decode H.264 4K 60fps perfectly. It's up to each 4K display how it supports (or does not support) 4K 60p. TV does not support DP as expected. TV may support 4K 60p via AMD EyeFinity, NVIDIA Quadro Mosaic, Intel Collage (4 HDMI cables from a single GPU). Some monitors support DP. For example

- Sony 84X9000 (84"), X9200A (65", 55"): HDMI x 4. These models do not support 4K 60p.
- Sharp UD1 (70", 60"): HDMI x 4. The same as above.
- Toshiba L9300U (84", 65", 58"): HDMI x 4; with the adapter box THD-MBA1, 4K 60p is possible.
- Sharp PN-K321 (32"): DisplayPort 1.2 (supporting 4K 60p), HDMI x 2

Perhaps you'd better wait for HDMI 2.0 capable graphics card / 4K TV.

Some hints on 4K X-Reality PRO (Digital Riality Creation) vs MadVR Jinc+AR. Jinc algorithm will remain (one of) the best even in 4K realm.


Thanks again for helping me out.

Its quite disappointing to hear that it sounds like 4K just isn't quite ready for prime time. There seems to be missing pieces for it to all come together. The more I read, the more I think I should wait to buy a 4K tv at all. Not when HDMI 2.0 seems like a must and the lack of 60p support on TVs.

That leaves me at a stand still for my project. I suppose my best bet for an htpc build right now would be to build a system with hardware to max out MadVR and SVP for a FHD set, but also in a case that allows me to add a video card later with the hope of adding an HDMI 2.0 card.

So I'm back to a Haswell i5/HD 7770 combo with the idea of replacing the HD7770 when an HDMI 2.0 card is released. After looking at your link regarding Jinc, I definitely want to leverage that for 4k output to a 4k set instead of relying on the TV's own feature.
post #392 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Agg View Post

Hmm although its pricey prob worth buying i7-4770k + 7970 and using it as media / beast gaming machine for a year or 2 till some real good proven 4k displays / projectors start coming through. Wonder if that build would hold up as future proof for 4k though (new madvr versions/svp and new products coming along) hmmm makes me wonder if I am better off waiting for ddr4 / gddr5 combo

Unfortunately not, the SVP+MadVR+MPC-HC setup runs out of memory before it runs out of processing cycles. (I am using the 7970 + i7-3970X)

The RAM working set for the above is about 2.7GB running 4-tap jinc + AR on MadVR and Standard Shaders on SVP playing the Sintel short movie listed below.
A patched MPC-HC for >2GB access is required. Patched apps can access up to 3GB but MPC-HC will crash if it tries to use above 2.7GB

SVP and MadVR are 32bit apps so the future is limited as far as 4K goes

Below is a 4K H.264 short movie if anyone is interested
http://www.sintel.org/news/sintel-4k-version-available/
post #393 of 660
Yup, SVP on 4K movies is the first real-world case (in video playback area) that 64-bit is necessary.
post #394 of 660
You need to set "two pixels" precision for 4K - it'll significantly reduce memory consumption.
And then find maximum number of processing threads that works without out of memory error.

And don't try this with original Avisynth 2.5/2.6 - use the one from SVP.
post #395 of 660
Hmm I feel like its way better to hang on for 6-12 months before looking into building for 4k, for now though how much of a difference would you say SVP level 3,4,5 is on FHD 40" ? I cant really test it as I am only using a mobile i7 with hd4000 and cant seem to find too many demo vids of it. I feel like I should be able to get away with using an i5 2500k overclocked with 7770/7850 to get decent results especially if level 3/4/5 isnt too much of a noticeable difference?

I just feel like investing in a haswell cpu + real beefy gpu (although fun) doesnt really merit the cost especially considering we dont even know if it will take too well to the 4k scene (and by then there will be nextgen processors/gpu's and ddr4 with possibly SVP/MADVR 64bit versions) and even if it does hold up, I will be able to build a haswell system for 50/60% of the price in 12 months from now.

So..! are there any demo vids showing the difference in svp? and how has a decently overclocked i5 2500k/3570k held up with a 7770/7850 ? (points at renethx!)
post #396 of 660
Thread Starter 
Why wait ? Haswell 4770k is here for under $300.

It's unlikely anything 12 months from now would be either much cheaper or much better.

When you decide you really want more you can always add or upgrade your video card.

That system would be viable for years
post #397 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Why wait ? Haswell 4770k is here for under $300.

It's unlikely anything 12 months from now would be either much cheaper or much better.

When you decide you really want more you can always add or upgrade your video card.

That system would be viable for years

Biggest reason right now to wait if 4K is a concern is the lack of HDMI 2.0 support across the board. That should be showing up on both displays and video cards/motherboards either by the end of 2013 or early 2014. If you want to future proof, a 4770k would be a decent start, and wait on a video card until HDMI 2.0. I'm needing to build a second HTPC in the next few weeks, which has left me wondering if I should instead build a much beefier one for my living room so I can start utilizing madVR and SVP. I can't honestly see 4K being a concern for me for the next 2-3 years unless I suddenly get a much better job to where I can afford to buy yet another new TV. And by then, Intel processors will be 2 generations ahead (whatever comes after Broadwell, or potentially even after that), and likely able to handle 4K natively with all the bells and whistles.
post #398 of 660
Thread Starter 
I was thinking a $99 7770 for now and just upgrade when you need it.
post #399 of 660
Quote:
Why wait ? Haswell 4770k is here for under $300

4770k - $300
7850 - $200
ram - $70
case/psu - $100
4tb hdd $160

$870 without an ssd and about $1000 with one for a machine thats very beasty now but in 1 year (maybe 2) will be outdated with ddr4 release vs something like

3570k - $200 (prob less than this just did a fast google)
7770 - $100
ram - $70
case/psu - $100
4tb hdd $160

$630 without an ssd that will do exactly the same as the first system (just for 1080p playback) maybe not level 4 or 5 svp but if its barely noticeable id much rather pocket $240 (prob more) and then revist the situation in a year or two from now when 4k is really catching on and ddr4 has started being fed through. But I would like to see some SVP comparisons to check the difference between levels
post #400 of 660
Core i5-2500K is capable of SVP Level 5g with GPU acceleration. As I have already shown, any discrete Radeon card offloads CPU equally well. It depends on the source and madVR level you want what card to choose. If your main source is FHD movie, then even HD 6570 is enough because you need only chroma upscaling and there is no big difference between madVR Level 3 and Level 5 (i.e. chroma upscaling between Bicubic75+AR and Jinc3+AR) in most of scenes.
post #401 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Core i5-2500K is capable of SVP Level 5g with GPU acceleration. As I have already shown, any discrete Radeon card offloads CPU equally well. It depends on the source and madVR level you want what card to choose. If your main source is FHD movie, then even HD 6570 is enough because you need only chroma upscaling and there is no big difference between madVR Level 3 and Level 5 (i.e. chroma upscaling between Bicubic75+AR and Jinc3+AR) in most of scenes.

Even better then , so a 2500k + a $100 7770 should be perfect for level 5 in madvr and 5g as I said almost all content is native 1080p anyway. Ideal smile.gif
post #402 of 660
It seems like there is no definitive answer for those of us looking to build in 4k support into an htpc.


Cost is certainly a concern, but to me, the bigger issue is just choosing the right parts. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any 'right parts' at the moment.

If I get a 4K set this year, then the best that I can do is output 4k @ 24fps from the htpc to the TV.

In that scenario, do I use SVP at all? If SVP is there to upscale to 60fps, it has no use if the goal is 4k @ 24, right? Then what do I do with my 1080p60/480p60 content?


Another point I was wondering about, these 4k sets accept both UHD ( 3840x2160/24p - 3840x2160/30p) and full 4k (4096x2160/24p). Is there any advantage to 3840x2160/30p vs 4096x2160/24p?

From my research, Haswell motherboards list the supported res as 4096 x 2160 @ 24 Hz. I haven't seen mention of 3840x2160 @ 24 or 30 supported over HDMI from these systems.I then looked at video cards. I couldn't find any HD 7770 or 7790 models that list support for either of the two '4k' formats. I did find that the 7970 models do list support for 4096 x 2160 though.

So if I were to get a 4k set this year, it sounds like the best situation for me would be a Haswell i5 or i7 and not get a video card at all. That means I can't max out MadVr or SVP, but I will at least have the option to output at 4k. Getting a 7770 or 7790 seems like a waste in that scenario. A 7970 would allow me to max things out, but that's a $400 investment that may have to be replaced next year when HDMI 2.0 cards are available. Man, this is not a simple decision.
post #403 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

It seems like there is no definitive answer for those of us looking to build in 4k support into an htpc.

I'd suggest not buying a 4k set this year

As to the htpc go with a 7770 or better and use it to mine bitcoins with slush's pool until 4k standards are more ubiquitous between TVs, HDMI, and video cards. By that time, you'll have paid for the 7770 even subtracting energy costs, and you could resell it for $40-50 then swap in a better supported video card.
post #404 of 660
did you forget that real 4k will be h265?

now it's all like early FullHD demos / videos in mpeg2 / wmv...
post #405 of 660
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainik View Post

did you forget that real 4k will be h265?

now it's all like early FullHD demos / videos in mpeg2 / wmv...

Yup.

Build a PC now with an i7 and you can do H265 later and anything you want with a GPU upgrade to support next generation HDMI

Any plans for SVP to go 4k ? Or does it now ?
post #406 of 660
i7 can decode H.265, but can't do motion interpolation on 4K movies adequately. Even if graphic cards with a H.265 decoder and HDMI 2.0 (as well as 4K displays with HDMI 2.0) are available soon, CPU processing power and memory issues will remain. Considering the number of 4K movies in near future, Chainik and other developers may think it's not worth while to develop SVP 64-bit. And what about madshi? He may think the same way.
post #407 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

i7 can decode H.265, but can't do motion interpolation on 4K movies adequately. Even if graphic cards with a H.265 decoder and HDMI 2.0 (as well as 4K displays with HDMI 2.0) are available soon, CPU processing power and memory issues will remain. Considering the number of 4K movies in near future, Chainik and other developers may think it's not worth while to develop SVP 64-bit. And what about madshi? He may think the same way.


I know there is only so much future proofing that can be done, but I have to think that its worthwhile building a system that could support those standards.

In your opinion, considering my situation, do you think it makes sense to build a htpc now ?

I could build one now around a Haswell i7 without a video card and just use MadVR and SVP to upscale my content to 1080p60 for output. Then maybe add a card next year that has hdmi 2.0 and H.265 support.

Or do I try to wait on building one at all until such support is confirmed? Basically, is there an advantage to waiting 6 months or more for these standards to get out before building my htpc?
post #408 of 660
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

i7 can decode H.265, but can't do motion interpolation on 4K movies adequately. Even if graphic cards with a H.265 decoder and HDMI 2.0 (as well as 4K displays with HDMI 2.0) are available soon, CPU processing power and memory issues will remain. Considering the number of 4K movies in near future, Chainik and other developers may think it's not worth while to develop SVP 64-bit. And what about madshi? He may think the same way.

I think your right. It's not worth it to develop something less than 1% can use. But that won't last long. It's not unlikely we start seeing main stream 4k displays at places like Costco, or BestBuy that people can actually buy and afford. I think there is some demand for content too- at least from the dedicated AVS type crowd. Lastly, When DDR4 hits, and the next generation of CPU arrives it's not so crazy to think 4k should be easy to do. A high end machine can do it now- so a mid level machine is going to do it soon. I'm not sure the entry level 35$ celeron is going to be up to the task any time soon- but I can remember when there was no way an entry level CPU was going to do 1080p. I remember my socket 939 and LGA775 based machines. I still have them tongue.gif

It's going to happen at some point.

My point to the guy who said he wanted to wait a year was that there is likely nothing in 1 year worth waiting for. A 4770k today is under $300 and it's very unlikely anything in the next 12 months is going to be significantly more powerfule or significantly cheaper. So WTF would you wait for ??? If you want or need a machine now- build it now. Perhaps you might just grab a $99 Video card that can do everything you need today - and replace it with a $200 card in the future to get better HDMI 2.0 and 4k processing support, but that might be a lot longer than 1 year from now. I'm guessing at least a few before 4k sets and content is widely available to the masses.
post #409 of 660
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

I know there is only so much future proofing that can be done, but I have to think that its worthwhile building a system that could support those standards.

In your opinion, considering my situation, do you think it makes sense to build a htpc now ?

I could build one now around a Haswell i7 without a video card and just use MadVR and SVP to upscale my content to 1080p60 for output. Then maybe add a card next year that has hdmi 2.0 and H.265 support.

Or do I try to wait on building one at all until such support is confirmed? Basically, is there an advantage to waiting 6 months or more for these standards to get out before building my htpc?

Read my post above. Your post was not posted when I started typing it.

I think it might apply.

My advice is that there is no point in waiting. Any high end CPU like i7 Haswell is going to remain very viable and capable for many years. That's why you buy a high end CPU in the first place. It will still be adequate in a couple years when the lower end CPU's today might not be.

Nothing is due in the next 6 months, or even a year that you would want to wait for- or need to wait for. It won't save you any money. It won't gain you any performance. Socket 1150 just hit, and it's the newest product out that is considered main stream and affordable. The refresh will take place in 1 year but it won't be much different or better, or any cheaper. Think 5% faster and the same price. Just like when 1155 socket went from Sandy bridge to Ivy bridge- there is not much difference in those chips. I own both, as well as socket 1150. Haswell is very new, the i3 CPU's are due in September- only a month away. Broadwell will replace Haswell on the refresh a year from now- but still the same socket, same prices, and same performance. Usually 5-10% better is all you get. There is not very much difference between a 3770k (old socket 1155) and a 4770k (new socket 1150) in performance today. Nor is there much price difference. Perhaps $30 or so.

Waiting won't help you. The only thing you might wait for is a next generation video GPU card - but adding one or upgrading one in the future is all you would need to do. And you could probably squeeze another 2 or 3 more years out of your HTPC. It is not unreasonable to think a 4770k based HTPC you build today would last you for more than 4 years without any serious lack of performance. That's why people buy i7's. Now... an i3 and yes you'll probably be upgrading it sooner.
post #410 of 660
It's up to your goal. If you already have a functional HTPC, you'd better continue to use it. Otherwise build a decent system with Core i5 and HD 7770/7790 and a FHD display and enjoy SD/HD/FHD contents with the highest quality (in a FHD screen). IMO spending $5K on a 4K UHD display without 4K 60p input is not a good idea, although you can enjoy SD/HD/FHD/UHD @24Hz with the highest scaling quality (i.e. Jinc) right now (HD 7790 is enough to upscale to 4K @24Hz with Jinc). I would wait at least for HDMI 2.0. By then better PC hardware (CPU, GPU, DDR4 SDRAM) will be available and we will have a better perspective on how to play 4K contents.
post #411 of 660
Well I have a lot to think about for sure. I appreciate both of you sharing your advice on the matter.


My situation is that this would be a new htpc build to use in a new home theater. Yes I have another htpc, but it was geared simply towards 1080p playback, not to use MadVR, SVP and certainly nothing 4k. Plus its already running in another room.

So basically, I'm treating this project as a clean slate. I currently have a nice 60" 1080p set in my theater room, so considering the issues with 4k sets, I'm likely to stick with what I have for at least a year. I just don't see the value in dropping $5k+ on a tv that is basically incomplete feature wise.

Since there is unlikely to be any serious improvements to hardware over the next year, I'll build something now with the goal of upgrading to accommodate HDMI 2.0 and H.265/ 4K @ 60.


So with that in mind, I hear two choices from you two:

1. i7 without a video card
2. i5 with a 7770 or 7790


From what renethx has said about cpu load for MadVR and SVP, the i5 wont hold me back in theory when I do buy that new video card supporting the new formats, so choice #2 seems to be the best bet right now. Does that sound right?

The i7 wouldn't be enough to handle max MadVR/SVP for 4k @ 60 anyway, so I would need a stronger cpu at that point whether I get an i5 or i7 now. I'd rather get the best 1080p experience now with the i5/7770 combo if that is true.
post #412 of 660
Personally I recommend option 2. With i7 + iGPU, you are limited to Lanczos upscaling (via madVR / EVR DXVA2), that's surely inferior to Jinc. Core i5 + a good discrete card is better balanced.
post #413 of 660
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Personally I recommend option 2. With i7 + iGPU, you are limited to Lanczos upscaling (via madVR / EVR DXVA2), that's surely inferior to Jinc. Core i5 + a good discrete card is better balanced.

I agree.

My suggestion for the i7 was simply because it's not too much more $, and it's got a bit more performance that you might appreciate later with a better GPU. You would need a better GPU to create the same "balance" as the i5 combo.
post #414 of 660
ok. i was hoping to upgrade from my personal workstation, which is an alienware m17x-r2 laptop to a haswell rig with beefy gpu, and the htpc which is a c2d q6600 with a radeon 6670. i cant do both, so i will just do the htpc for now.

i have a highpoint 2320 right now with 8hdd. might upgrade it to an ibm m1015 at some point. the motherboard can have 4 or 6 sata as i run an ssd os drive, temp hdd drive outside flexraid pool, and 2 optical drives. no need for more than 6. this is the flexraid media storage and htpc in one. i have the fractal design define r4 case, so its a pretty good sound insulator.

i will go for the 4770k and a 7790. the 7850 may be too much heat/power. would the 6670 handle 5/5g? i dont care for 4k right now. only thing i need recommendations for is the motherboard, ram (16GB), heatsink and psu.

thanks.
post #415 of 660
The amount of CPU offload by any of HD 6570, 6670, 7750 and higher at SVP is identical and these GPUs are powerful enough to do both (CPU offload by) SVP and madVR. As shown in the other thread, 6670 supports up to madVR Level 3. You will need 7770 or higher for Level 5.
post #416 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

I know there is only so much future proofing that can be done, but I have to think that its worthwhile building a system that could support those standards.

In your opinion, considering my situation, do you think it makes sense to build a htpc now ?

I could build one now around a Haswell i7 without a video card and just use MadVR and SVP to upscale my content to 1080p60 for output. Then maybe add a card next year that has hdmi 2.0 and H.265 support.

Why are you stuck on getting an intel system? You could get an FX-8350 CPU for cheaper than the Haswell i5's.
post #417 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I think your right. It's not worth it to develop something less than 1% can use. But that won't last long. It's not unlikely we start seeing main stream 4k displays at places like Costco, or BestBuy that people can actually buy and afford.

I don't know man... You can get a 50" 4K tv right now for just a little over $1100 dollars: http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE50UY04-50-Inch-120Hz/dp/B00BXF7I9M

So it won't be long before Walmart, Costco, or BestBuy have them at near-reasonable prices.
Edited by Puwaha - 7/19/13 at 9:05pm
post #418 of 660
The main reason would be power consumption, the difference can be 50W or more at SVP. In a large case you can add a cheap, large cooler such as Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO. But in a relatively small HTPC case, you may have to spend a bit of money on a good, smaller cooler, that may result in more cost with AMD FX processor.
post #419 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The main reason would be power consumption, the difference can be 50W or more at SVP. In a large case you can add a cheap, large cooler such as Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO. But in a relatively small HTPC case, you may have to spend a bit of money on a good, smaller cooler, that may result in more cost with AMD FX processor.

Maybe... but let's be honest here, the GPU is going to be the pig in power consumption no matter which CPU you pick. The cost difference in the FX-8350 and the i5-4670 will take a year or two to recoup the price premium of the i5 in power savings... depending on where you live. For the vast majority of the time over that 1-2 years, the CPUs will be idle, so the power difference in idling is what like 20 watts? So more than 2 years really to recoup the price premium.

Noise and heat? Yes, it can be a little more challenging but once again the GPU is going to be the pig here again.


An IB 3570K is more competitive price wise and still about the same oomph as an FX-8350
post #420 of 660
My main concern is that poor CPU cooling often results in CPU throttle down, that results in severe frame drops in SVP. The other problem is noise. (Try the stock cooler and see what happens. smile.gif This is an extreme case, of course.) I guess nobody is concerned with electricity cost at this enthusiasts' level of systems.

GPU cooling is the graphics card vendor's, it's usually beyond us. Just choose a right card such as Sapphire Vapor-X 7770 or ASUS DirectCU II 7790 and you will be perfectly fine. These cards are very quiet even at 100% load with good operating temperature.

- Core i5 + HD 7770 consumes ~130W at SVP Level 5g + madVR Level 5 (CPU and others combined except GPU ~90W, GPU ~40W).
- FX + HD 7700 consumes ~180W at SVP Level 5g + madVR Level 5 (CPU and others combined except GPU ~140W, GPU ~40W).

In a smaller HTPC case Core i5 is a lot easier to deal with.
Edited by renethx - 7/19/13 at 11:47pm
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