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*WOW* ... SVP +1080p Animation = OMG ! (60 frames per second for the win!) - Page 15

post #421 of 660
Thread Starter 
Once somone starts down this road I think the small case is abandoned in favor of performance.

Many would be building in something like a silver stone GD08 and putting it with other components on a rack with amps, AVR, set top boxes etc.

Anyone who wants the ultra small cute case usually doesn't care about up scaling or SVP.

Different people.

It's the enthusiast with good theater gear that goes through the trouble and they care more about doing right than making it cute. Cooling isn't an issue when you do it right.
post #422 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Once somone starts down this road I think the small case is abandoned in favor of performance.

Many would be building in something like a silver stone GD08 and putting it with other components on a rack with amps, AVR, set top boxes etc.

Anyone who wants the ultra small cute case usually doesn't care about up scaling or SVP.

Different people.

It's the enthusiast with good theater gear that goes through the trouble and they care more about doing right than making it cute. Cooling isn't an issue when you do it right.

Performance may be a priority, but cooling and appearance do matter. There is no reason to use an AMD FX series processor right now in an HTPC (or, to be honest, almost any other environment) when they consume more power and generate more heat for equal performance. Performance per watt is crucial for every market segment from smartphones to supercomputers. It's not like we're talking about a situation where you have the choice of an efficient system that can't do madVR level 5 or SVP, or a beastly, power hungry monster that is necessary for top notch video. If you can get top notch video with power efficiency (thus lower cooling demands) without incurring much extra cost, why not do that? Your other components in that rack will thank you smile.gif
post #423 of 660
Thread Starter 
I hear all that. I wasn't saying use AMD. I guess technically I'm an Intel fanboy these days biggrin.gif

My last 15 CPU purchases were on socket 1155 and most recently socket 1150. No hate or disrespect on AMD but I just find value in the Intel these days.

I'm more unique than some though. I'm either low end or high end. I don't like the midrange which is where i3 and AMD exist. I see no point in either.

You either need the power or you don't. If you do, or if you wanted do SVP then that starts around i5 quad core. If you don't then Pentium is enough.

I know AMD has some value in that they have a good GPU relative to price and CPU- but I find that practically speaking you are usually better off with a GPU card and quad core or higher Intel for advanced applications. And for basic applications Intel GPU is enough so AMD advantage is wasted.
post #424 of 660

You should keep in mind not everyone needs/wants scaling or SVP; regardless if their PC can do it or not.

 

My 7 year old Intel quad core PC with 8GB's of RAM hooked up to a latest generation Samsung LCD TV doesnt need to scale bluray movies or 1080i TV material since it's a native 1080p display. The only thing I really depend on is Reclock and (Dscaler mpeg2 IVTC mod for TV content) to output to the TV @24.000fps/24.000Hz..

 

I'm not a big fan of the soap opera effect; however, I do have my TV configured for a mild setting for frame rate interpolation aka "anti-judder" (3 out of 10 setting) and vector adaptive motion estimation/compensation, aka "anti-blur processing" (maxed out at 10 out of 10). Both settings are part of Samsung latest AutoMotionPlus engine (based on the 240Hz native panel refresh rate).  The ultimate result on the TV display is quite good; and, should be arguably comparable to high-end blinged out PCs pumping out most of their system resources towards madvr.

 

I'm sure, one may try to argue that SVP may have possibly more advanced algorithms for motion estimation/compensation and frame rate interpolation; however, I'm not sure how that can be done if there's only guesses what exactly latest gen TV's do exactly.  I found some patents online that describe samsung vector adaptive motion estimation/compensation; however, it didn't mean a whole lot to me in respect to SVP processing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Once somone starts down this road I think the small case is abandoned in favor of performance.

Many would be building in something like a silver stone GD08 and putting it with other components on a rack with amps, AVR, set top boxes etc.

Anyone who wants the ultra small cute case usually doesn't care about up scaling or SVP.

Different people.

It's the enthusiast with good theater gear that goes through the trouble and they care more about doing right than making it cute. Cooling isn't an issue when you do it right.

Edited by MKANET - 7/20/13 at 9:21pm
post #425 of 660
Well in my case, I'm definitely trying to keep the case as small as possible to put in an AV rack.

No I'm not talking tiny, but small, something in an ITX case. I am looking at several now that can accommodate the video card like the 7970. Even If I'm just getting a 7770 at first, I want a case that will allow me the room to grow if the next video card with HDMI 2.0 is as large as the 7970. My hope is that by the time such cards are out, I wont need a something equivalent to that and can get whatever the midrange card is at the time, something equivalent to the 7770 now.


When I started my project of building a media server and an htpc, I was just thinking about 1080p output to a possible new 4K TV. That led me to MadVR and SVP. I especially wanted MadVR so that all of my video media could be sent to the new tv in 1080p or 4k if possible. I'm not a big fan of the 'Soap Opera Effect' produced by a 60fps target, but I very much appreciate it for my sports content. So I want to use SVP at least for that content (I have a lot of sports events on bluray and dvd that would need it), while my movie collection is output at its native refresh rate.

Now that I know 4k output from the pc wont be properly supported until the HDMI 2.0/H.265 standards hit video cards, I will target the best 1080p output for now and upgrade for the rest later.

Now that I found about the current 4k TV shortcomings, I wont be buying one for at least year.

Once I have the hardware list sorted for the htpc, I then have to sort out the hardware list for my server. Mfusick's thread along with others here are a wealth of information that I have been reading through for days, so I'm getting close to a list and hope to share it in the appropriate threads to see if it will work.
post #426 of 660
Thread Starter 
Anytime you start adding GPU cards your going to need a certain size case. If you have a rack, your better of making it a component sized or rack mountable.
post #427 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

You should keep in mind not everyone needs/wants scaling or SVP; regardless if their PC can do it or not.

My 7 year old Intel quad core PC with 8GB's of RAM hooked up to a latest generation Samsung LCD TV doesnt need to scale bluray movies or 1080i TV material since it's a native 1080p display. The only thing I really depend on is Reclock and (Dscaler mpeg2 IVTC mod for TV content) to output to the TV @24.000fps/24.000Hz..

I'm not a big fan of the soap opera effect; however, I do have my TV configured for a mild setting for frame rate interpolation aka "anti-judder" (3 out of 10 setting) and vector adaptive motion estimation/compensation, aka "anti-blur processing" (maxed out at 10 out of 10). Both settings are part of Samsung latest AutoMotionPlus engine (based on the 240Hz native panel refresh rate).  The ultimate result on the TV display is quite good; and, should be arguably comparable to high-end blinged out PCs pumping out most of their system resources towards madvr.

I'm sure, one may try to argue that SVP may have possibly more advanced algorithms for motion estimation/compensation and frame rate interpolation; however, I'm not sure how that can be done if there's only guesses what exactly latest gen TV's do exactly.  I found some patents online that describe samsung vector adaptive motion estimation/compensation; however, it didn't mean a whole lot to me in respect to SVP processing.

You don't have to have SVP on full-on max settings to enjoy it. You can dial back the settings to do exactly what your TV is doing. For those of us who don't have interpolating TVs, SVP is a great free add-on.
post #428 of 660
I had a question about ram speeds.

I know renethx recommended DDR3 2400 for my build, but I wanted to make sure that it is a requirement for proper performance.

As a reminder, I'm talking about the following build:

Intel Core i5-4670K Haswell
AMD 7700


The reason I ask is that I'm having to spend a significant amount of extra money on my motherboard in order to get one that supports the DDR3 2400 speed. If I need that speed, then that's fine, but I wanted to be sure.

Also, if I need to use that speed, I assume that means I have to overclock my cpu in order to achieve the speed right?
post #429 of 660
Thread Starter 
Yes use 2400mhz. It's worth it IMO.



Sign up for the updates and coupons ^

I am using the TRIDENT X series Gskill in my 4770k.
post #430 of 660
I generally recommend ASRock over GIGABYTE, it's worth extra money, although DDR3-2400 is not necessary when you use a discrete card (look at tables I posted earlier).

Intel chip's memory controller (even cheap SNB / IVB Celeron's) supports DDR3-2400 just fine. Only the mb needs to support it. Obviously ASRock engineers are spending lots of time.
Edited by renethx - 7/23/13 at 2:13pm
post #431 of 660
Alright, then DDR3 2400 it is.

The motherboard I'm leaning towards right now is the ASRock Z87E-ITX. It sounds like a great board, but its pretty pricey @ $165
post #432 of 660
Thread Starter 
You always pay a premium for ITX.

Pay more. Get Less.

That's ITX for you smile.gif
post #433 of 660
Well by more expensive, I mean compared to other itx boards. For instance, the ASRock B85M-ITX would work just fine and its $80. Unfortunately, it doesn't list support for DDR3 @ 2400, so its out.
post #434 of 660
Thread Starter 
I think all socket 1150 support 2400mhz.

They all have the new and same intel memory controller. If one z87 does... Then they al do.
post #435 of 660
Well this board is using the B85 chipset:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/B85M-ITX/?cat=Specifications

If you can find any evidence that it supports DDR3 2400, that would save me a nice bit of money.
post #436 of 660
Since I'm using a discrete video card with this build, I don't need the ddr3 2400 support as renethx pointed out, so I guess I can choose the cheaper asrock without missing out on anything.

I would need to buy one of the intel pci-e lan cards though since that cheaper asrock board is using a Qualcomm Atheros lan chip.
post #437 of 660
Average CPU load when playing back the first 8 minutes of Tangled with SVP 5g + madVR 5, i5-4670 @3.4GHz (Turbo Boost disabled) and HD 7770:

- DDR3-1600: 59.6%
- DDR3-2400: 53.7%

It TB is enabled (default), CPU runs @3.7GHz, so CPU usage is even lower.

- DDR3-1600: 55%
- DDR3-2400: 49%

So practically there is no difference (no PQ difference, of course) between DDR3-1600 and DDR3-2400.
Edited by renethx - 7/25/13 at 3:42am
post #438 of 660
Thread Starter 
I was thinking only z87. I didn't realize you were going for lower b85 budget chipset. I don't tend to follow those lines very much as I seem to always find a reason to step up (z68, z77, z87)

Sorry I missed that
post #439 of 660
Most ASRock, ASUS, GIGABYTE (and ECS, BIOSTAR) B85 mb support overclocking K chips. Intel is going to block it with a firmware update (the current K chips won't be affected). I wish B85 support memory OC too (some ASRock and ASUS B75 mb support this in a non-standard way [engineers have to find a way around]).
Edited by renethx - 7/25/13 at 7:57am
post #440 of 660
Thanks a lot for the info renethx.

I guess I'm sounding like a cheapskate here lol.


Its not that I am against spending money, I wouldn't be pursuing my project if I was, but I also feel that its worth pursuing the best bang for the buck. I'll put my money where it needs to be, but if I can spend it smarter, I'm all for it.


So in this case, I'm not hearing any problems with saving money by going with the Asrock B85 board. It may not have all the bells and whistles of the high end Asrock z87 board, but I have to remind myself that I won't be making use of any of those extra features. Things like built in wifi, Bluetooth, big overclocking potential, mSATA slot, tons of sata or usb ports, etc, add up to very little when your going to use the board in a htpc that is focused on accessing and playing back media from a server.

I can save money with the Asrock B85 board, drop in an i5 K cpu, and have extra money to put towards my server build, all the while hitting my target to output max MadVR and SVP.
post #441 of 660
Thread Starter 
What case and GPU ?
post #442 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

What case and GPU ?

For the htpc build?


Right now I'm leaning towards the Silverstone SG08

Its got a great cooling profile and plenty of space to accommodate the 7770, not to mention a replacement card for HDMI 2.0/4k @ 60 support

Case:
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=317&area=en


Video Card:

http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Radeon-PCI-Express-Graphics-11201-17-20G/dp/B00A0HZOEA


I was settled on a 7770 model, but its tough to find proper reviews or opinions on how 'quiet' the various models are. The reviews for this card seem to say its on the quiet side of video cards in that range. Its also priced very well.
post #443 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

No hate or disrespect on AMD but I just find value in the Intel these days

I have to say that SVP is a very convenient task for AMD FX CPUs (multi-threaded integer calculations) which means FX 8350 (or a slightly overclocked 8320) is equal to i7-3770 and FX-6xxx can be compared to top i5 CPUs.
post #444 of 660
Random question, does being at 120/144 hz instead of 60/24hz affect the performance of svp? I read that SVP will go as high as your refresh rate just wondering if any1 has a projector setup at 120/144hz (or tv) that is using SVP and I wonder what the requirements are compared to that of 60hz setup
Edited by Ben Agg - 7/26/13 at 9:19pm
post #445 of 660
@Ben Agg

You'll need rather powerful video card for 120/144 hz output especially with madVR renderer.
CPU consumption should be almost the same as with 60 hz processing.
post #446 of 660
That's interesting. GPU load by madVR is almost proportional to the frame rate. Processing 60fps requires 2.5 times better GPU than 24fps. 120fps requires twice better GPU than 60fps. GPU load at madVR Level 5 upscaling with HD 7870 (no SVP) is:

SD 60fps -> FHD 60fps: 31%
HD 60fps -> FHD 60fps: 34%
FHD 60fps -> FHD 60fps: 20%

So

SD 120fps -> FHD 120fps: 62%
HD 120fps -> FHD 120fps: 68%
FHD 120fps -> FHD 120fps: 40%

SVP Level 5g adds a few to 10% load. So HD 7870 is a good choice.
post #447 of 660
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainik View Post

I have to say that SVP is a very convenient task for AMD FX CPUs (multi-threaded integer calculations) which means FX 8350 (or a slightly overclocked 8320) is equal to i7-3770 and FX-6xxx can be compared to top i5 CPUs.

I think he/we meant that heat and noise in HTPC is higher on the AMD and cooling it quietly becomes more an issue, and for that reason a 4770k or 3770k might be better.
post #448 of 660
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper11 View Post

For the htpc build?


Right now I'm leaning towards the Silverstone SG08

Its got a great cooling profile and plenty of space to accommodate the 7770, not to mention a replacement card for HDMI 2.0/4k @ 60 support

Case:
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=317&area=en


Video Card:

http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Radeon-PCI-Express-Graphics-11201-17-20G/dp/B00A0HZOEA


I was settled on a 7770 model, but its tough to find proper reviews or opinions on how 'quiet' the various models are. The reviews for this card seem to say its on the quiet side of video cards in that range. Its also priced very well.

Surprised you didn't jump into the ATX or MATX silverstone cases for the upgrade path. Once you start putting a GPU card in- ITX loses it flavor IMO.

Are you limited on width ? Or you just like ITX? I always though something like the bigger silverstones that match with my AVR and other components on width looks more appropriate and stands out less looks wise. Is the choice for ITX a personal looks preference?

I ask this with total and full disclosure that I personally dislike ITX for such a build for a variety of reasons. You seem like you are doing your homework and know what your doing so I don't mean to challenge you too much on the ITX thing. More just curious your motivation, adding a CPU card prevents you from getting from ITX what most want from ITX (ultra small cute case and look) Personally I think those square node looking things are the ugliest things I've seen in PC hardware cases, and stretching it wider to look like a high end AVR (aka Silversone grandia series) is much more pleasing on the eye. Plus, you open up a variety of possibilities in hardware choice and future upgrade path.
post #449 of 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

That's interesting. GPU load by madVR is almost proportional to the frame rate. Processing 60fps requires 2.5 times better GPU than 24fps. 120fps requires twice better GPU than 60fps. GPU load at madVR Level 5 upscaling with HD 7870 (no SVP) is:

SD 60fps -> FHD 60fps: 31%
HD 60fps -> FHD 60fps: 34%
FHD 60fps -> FHD 60fps: 20%

So

SD 120fps -> FHD 120fps: 62%
HD 120fps -> FHD 120fps: 68%
FHD 120fps -> FHD 120fps: 40%

SVP Level 5g adds a few to 10% load. So HD 7870 is a good choice.

Thats pretty handy that its not too much of a drastic change I was going to go for a OC i5 4670 build anyway and slap in a beefy gpu for gaming, but just out of interest (and the reason I asked about the 120/144hz) is future proofing I think I am probably gunna grab an optoma HD23 but looking at the HD33 it actually has its own frame interpolation for 120hz, this seems slightly off topic but seeing as its doing the same as SVP it isnt really. Has anyone had any experience with this vs SVP ? just that if it works just as (or almost) as well , then you could build a much cheaper smaller machine that can handle a decent level of madvr only , then let the projector handle the frame interpolation ? Just theorycrafting here!
post #450 of 660
@Mfusick,
Are you using JRiver for your player ( I think I saw some of your postings over there)? How is this set up for JRiver (MC18) do you just install SVP and everything just works (other than SVP settings) - or is there something that needs to be "done/set" inside JRiver?
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