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Subwoofer audyssey calibration... weaksauce "reference level" - Page 2

post #31 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

What settings you've made using REW or a plain old sound meter prior to running Audyssey get overwritten after the calibration, so what's the point of analyzing the room prior to running Audyssey? The notable exception is adjusting the sub volume as I mentioned in my previous post.

Audyssey EQ's the results of prior efforts and then recommends changes to the AVR, based on it's measurement of the room's acoustics.

One is trying, via the old fashion method (manual), to get the best "MEASURED" response possible. One "MUST" use a room analyzing program as you can't do this with just your brain and a sound meter. No way, no how, it's not going happen. This is much more then simply calibrating both subs to 75dB at the main listening position. If one is not using a room analyzing program to augment their integration efforts, then nothing I'm posting will make any sense.

Audyssey EQ's the whole spectrum, not just the subwoofer end of the spectrum. One needs to have their subwoofer system fully integrated, prior to running Audyssey. The subwoofer spectrum is but a small piece of what Audyssey does when it EQ the interaction between the reproduced sound and the room's acoustics.
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post #32 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I believe its the LFE setting, LFE+Main would double up on the bass as the speakers would play the low freqs and also send them over to the subwoofer.

If your crossover is set to 80Hz, this is not the case as all <80Hz material is ported over to the pre-out where all managed bass goes through at once.

One needs to also verify the distance setting for the subs to the main listening position.
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post #33 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:13am
I run into the same issue with audyssey, My sub volume is too low for my tastes.

I think the problem is Audyssey is trying to create a flat frequency response curve (Ignoring what it does at higher frequencies). It wants uniform gain acrosss all frequencies, The problem is with our hearing and not audyssey. We don't hear low frequencies as well as high frequencies. In order for something at a lower frequency to sound as loud as something at a higher frequency, we need a disproportionately loud gain at the lower frequency. I would guess the extent of this varies from person to person, so I'm not sure audyssey can make everyone happy.

Look at the chart near the middle of this link...
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

At the lower frequencies, we need higher SPL in order for things to sound the same.

It seems like, generally speaking, audyssey should try to fit a curve similar to what's shown in the graph instead of a flat response
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post #34 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Doesn't LFE+main only send bass to speakers that are set to "large"? If so, it doesn't seem to make sense to use that setting if all speakers are set to "small".

I can't remember correctly so correct me if I'm wrong but does LFE+ Main send LFE content to the speakers too or did it send the content below the XO to the sub and the speakers that are set to large?
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post #35 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...and second, make sure you're AVR speaker setting is LFE+Main so all information is bass managed over to the subwoofer/LFE channel, pre-out, what ever someone demands it be called.-
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I believe its the LFE setting, LFE+Main would double up on the bass as the speakers would play the low freqs and also send them over to the subwoofer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If your crossover is set to 80Hz, this is not the case as all <80Hz material is ported over to the pre-out where all managed bass goes through at once..

From your manual:
Quote:
Subwoofer Mode : Select low range signals to be reproduced by
subwoofer.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is
added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE
signal output from the subwoofer.
• “Subwoofer Mode” can be set when “Speaker Config.” – “Subwoofer”
(vpage 121) is set to “Yes”.
• Play music or a movie source and select the mode offering the strongest
bass.
• Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced
from the subwoofer.
NOTE
If “Front” and “Center” for “Speaker Config.” are set to “Large”, and
“Subwoofer Mode” is set to “LFE”, no sound may be output from the
subwoofers, depending on the input signal or selected sound mode.
http://us.marantz.com/us/products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=avreceivers&ProductId=SR5007

Again, you prove that you don't understand the settings you're adjusting. The "LFE + Mains" is a "double bass" setting where the the bass is not removed from the main channels and "ported over to the pre-out". It is allowed to remain in the main channels AND it is duplicated to the subwoofer pre-out., i.e., double bass. If you are using this setting, (which is not likely, and probably not even possible, if all your speakers are set to "Small") you need to shut it off and just use the "LFE" setting.

BeeMan, have you ever read the setup guide I linked to previously?

Craig
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post #36 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:47am
Craig, you've made your position perfectly clear in that you don't read and comprehend what I post and you're doing so now, so allow me to do the same, there's absolutely nothing you have to offer, I'm interested in reading.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/18/13 at 11:55am
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post #37 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I run into the same issue with audyssey, My sub volume is too low for my tastes.

I think the problem is Audyssey is trying to create a flat frequency response curve (Ignoring what it does at higher frequencies). It wants uniform gain acrosss all frequencies, The problem is with our hearing and not audyssey. We don't hear low frequencies as well as high frequencies. In order for something at a lower frequency to sound as loud as something at a higher frequency, we need a disproportionately loud gain at the lower frequency. I would guess the extent of this varies from person to person, so I'm not sure audyssey can make everyone happy.

Look at the chart near the middle of this link...
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

At the lower frequencies, we need higher SPL in order for things to sound the same.

It seems like, generally speaking, audyssey should try to fit a curve similar to what's shown in the graph instead of a flat response
Does your receiver have Dynamic EQ? It's whole purpose is to adjust the bass for human hearing deficiencies at low frequencies, especially at volume levels be low Reference Level. It is a better way to do so because it is a curve starting at about 120 Hz and gradually increasing the output down to the -3 dB point of the subwoofer system. Bumping up the bass trim in the receiver, or raising the gain control on the sub, are abrupt changes that occur from the crossover frequency down, and the same increase is added across the whole range, (IOW, it's a "linear" increase), as opposed to the gradually increasing levels with decreasing frequency as with DEQ. If you have DEQ in your receiver, try it out and see if it doesn't provide the compensation you are looking for.

Craig
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post #38 of 128
2/18/13 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Craig, you've made your position perfectly clear so allow me to do the same, there's absolutely nothing you have to offer I'm interested in reading.

I didn't write it, so don't avoid reading it just because I recommended it.

Craig
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post #39 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:02pm
Quote:
I can't remember correctly so correct me if I'm wrong but does LFE+ Main send LFE content to the speakers too ...
I don't know. I've read that LFE can be directed to the mains depending on how you configure bass management, and I've read that it is never directed to the mains.
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post #40 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:04pm
Expanding a little bit on what Craig John posted, here is an explanation from Batpig. It is specifically discussing the LFE+Main setting in Denon and Marantz AVRs, but is the same for the double bass setting in Onkyos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Here's a good explanation of LFE+Main vs LFE that I found in the Audyssey thread:

Mains - Large

Sub - LFE (double bass off)

In this setup, the mains run full-range, no bass is redirected to the sub from the L/R channels. The sub only gets the LFE channel. The crossover setting in this setup is ignored.

Mains - Large

Sub - LFE+Mains (double bass on)

In this setup, the mains run full-range as before, the sub gets the LFE channel. However, in this arrangement the frequencies below the mains crossover setting are sent to the mains AND the sub. This is the so-called "double bass."

Mains - Small

Sub - LFE or LFE+Mains doesn't matter (double bass on or off)

Here, the mains only play frequencies above whatever their crossover is set to. Anything below the crossover is redirected to the sub. The sub plays the LFE channel and the redirected bass from the mains regardless of what you set it to.
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post #41 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:05pm
Thanks - that confirms what I suspected.
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post #42 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If your crossover is set to 80Hz, this is not the case as all <80Hz material is ported over to the pre-out where all managed bass goes through at once.

One needs to also verify the distance setting for the subs to the main listening position.

LFE+main w/ the large setting would allow the low freqs of the 5.0 channels to "Stay" there and also be sent to the subwoofer. Double bass basically.

Not sure though if the speakers are set to small though
Edited by pokekevin - 2/18/13 at 12:14pm
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post #43 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

LFE+main w/ the large setting would allow the low freqs of the 5.0 channels to "Stay" there and also be sent to the subwoofer. Double bass basically

I posted about all speakers being set to small and the crossover being set to <80Hz when I posted:

"If I might, two suggestions, set all speakers to small, despite what Audyssey says and second, make sure you're AVR speaker setting is LFE+Main so all information is bass managed over to the subwoofer/LFE channel, pre-out, what ever someone demands it be called."

Yes, agreed, set up in the fashion you describe, double bass; bass through the mains and through the subs.
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post #44 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Craig, you've made your position perfectly clear in that you don't read and comprehend what I post and you're doing so now, so allow me to do the same, there's absolutely nothing you have to offer, I'm interested in reading.

-
You edited this after I posted a response to you, so let me re-respond. I QUOTED you stating that the LFE+Mains setting "ports the bass to the pre-out", and that it is "Bass Managed." Clearly it does neither, so how am I not comprehending what you're posting?

Craig
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post #45 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:24pm
According to batpig's information, "LFE+main" re-routes all bass to the subwoofer output if the speakers are set to "small". Since Beeman recommended setting all speakers to "small", there should be no bass going to them regardless of whether the subwoofer is set to "LFE" or "LFE+main". If the AVR defaults the subwoofer to "LFE" when speakers are set to "small", changing that setting to "LFE+main" provides no benefit, so Beeman's recommendation makes no sense (to me at least).
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post #46 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I can't remember correctly so correct me if I'm wrong but does LFE+ Main send LFE content to the speakers too or did it send the content below the XO to the sub and the speakers that are set to large?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I don't know. I've read that LFE can be directed to the mains depending on how you configure bass management, and I've read that it is never directed to the mains.

It depends on if you are talking about the the .1 / LFE channel, or just LFE or low frequency content in general. Low frequency content in general has already been discussed. As far as I know, for all the major brand AVRs, (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc.) the only way to redirect the LFE channel to the mains is by having no subwoofer. If you have a subwoofer configured, there is not a way to redirect the LFE channel to the mains. I would not be surprised if there is a processor that can reroute the LFE channel, but I do not know of one.

-Mike
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post #47 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

According to batpig's information, LFE+main re-routes all bass to the subwoofer output if the speakers are set to "small". Since Beeman recommended setting all speakers to "small", there should be no bass going to them, which renders his recommendation of "LFE+main" unnecessary.

IIRC, it's rolled off (I don't know if it's a -12dB or -24dB/octave slope), not a brick wall setting so there's still bass going to both mains, center channel, surrounds and the subwoofer system.

It reads as if some are looking for a purist solution but with added slopes, I don't think anybody is going achieve this ideal.

-
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post #48 of 128
2/18/13 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

IIRC, it's rolled off (I don't know if it's a -12dB or -24dB/octave slope), not a brick wall setting so there's still bass going to both mains, center channel, surrounds and the subwoofer system.

It reads as if some are looking for a purist solution but with added slopes, I don't think anybody is going achieve this ideal.

-
The roll-offs are inherent in the HPF/LPF of the crossovers. They don't change based the setting of the LFE or LFE+Mains setting, so what are you talking about? No one is talking about brick wall filters.

Craig
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post #49 of 128
2/18/13 at 1:27pm
I'm new to this stuff so can someone explain how you set a crossover point for speakers set to 'large'? Is that an exclusive feature of Marantz AVRs?

I just wanted to comment on the poster who cited the equal loudness curves, which invariably happens in subwoofer discussions.

There is no need to use ELC data to re-mix the soundtrack using your SW out level trim. The soundtracks are mixed by humans who have the ELC built-in to their hearing. Sound re-recording mixers do not ever mix flat and assume the end user will bump the low end to compensate for human hearing. Those frequencies are already adjusted by the mixers, as every spectrograph I've ever generated has verified.

Here's the average graph from maxmercy's peak hold/average graph of Iron Man over which I laid the 80 phon ELCurve:



I also mic'd an actual door slam and overlaid the same ELCurve showing that the elc is considered by nature itself.



The relevance of the ELC to playback is the variations to the curve at different loudness levels, so Craig John got it right in suggesting the DEQ, which adjusts the overall EQ curve of the signal by the master volume playback level, based on the ELC. Bumping the SW only (and not properly adjusting 4k Hz and the top octaves at the same time) has nothing to do with the ELC. It's just bumping the SW level.
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post #50 of 128
2/18/13 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I'm new to this stuff so can someone explain how you set a crossover point for speakers set to 'large'? Is that an exclusive feature of Marantz AVRs?

I just wanted to comment on the poster who cited the equal loudness curves, which invariably happens in subwoofer discussions.

There is no need to use ELC data to re-mix the soundtrack using your SW out level trim. The soundtracks are mixed by humans who have the ELC built-in to their hearing. Sound re-recording mixers do not ever mix flat and assume the end user will bump the low end to compensate for human hearing. Those frequencies are already adjusted by the mixers, as every spectrograph I've ever generated has verified.

Here's the average graph from maxmercy's peak hold/average graph of Iron Man over which I laid the 80 phon ELCurve:



I also mic'd an actual door slam and overlaid the same ELCurve showing that the elc is considered by nature itself.



The relevance of the ELC to playback is the variations to the curve at different loudness levels, so Craig John got it right in suggesting the DEQ, which adjusts the overall EQ curve of the signal by the master volume playback level, based on the ELC. Bumping the SW only (and not properly adjusting 4k Hz and the top octaves at the same time) has nothing to do with the ELC. It's just bumping the SW level.

+1 Good to see you on AVS Bosso!

Craig
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post #51 of 128
2/18/13 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 
IIRC, it's rolled off (I don't know if it's a -12dB or -24dB/octave slope), not a brick wall setting so there's still bass going to both mains, center channel, surrounds and the subwoofer system.
Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john 
The roll-offs are inherent in the HPF/LPF of the crossovers. They don't change based the setting of the LFE or LFE+Mains setting ...
Interesting, and good point.
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post #52 of 128
2/19/13 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Does your receiver have Dynamic EQ? It's whole purpose is to adjust the bass for human hearing deficiencies at low frequencies, especially at volume levels be low Reference Level. It is a better way to do so because it is a curve starting at about 120 Hz and gradually increasing the output down to the -3 dB point of the subwoofer system. Bumping up the bass trim in the receiver, or raising the gain control on the sub, are abrupt changes that occur from the crossover frequency down, and the same increase is added across the whole range, (IOW, it's a "linear" increase), as opposed to the gradually increasing levels with decreasing frequency as with DEQ. If you have DEQ in your receiver, try it out and see if it doesn't provide the compensation you are looking for.

Craig

I have a Denon 4311ci. I get prompted to turn on a dynamic setting at the end of the audyssey setup and I always accept it since it's the default. I don't know if it's Dyamic EQ. If it is, then it's still not sufficient enough for my tastes. I still like to bump up the subwoofer gain on the receiver.

I agree that increasing the overall gain won't resolve the problem and a eq curve that closely matches the graph would be better. I wish my receiver had a way of showing the subwoofer eq graph like it can for all the other channels.
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post #53 of 128
2/19/13 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have a Denon 4311ci. I get prompted to turn on a dynamic setting at the end of the audyssey setup and I always accept it since it's the default. I don't know if it's Dyamic EQ. If it is, then it's still not sufficient enough for my tastes. I still like to bump up the subwoofer gain on the receiver.

I agree that increasing the overall gain won't resolve the problem and a eq curve that closely matches the graph would be better. I wish my receiver had a way of showing the subwoofer eq graph like it can for all the other channels.

I hope you didn't turn on the Dynamic Volume setting!
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post #54 of 128
2/19/13 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have a Denon 4311ci. I get prompted to turn on a dynamic setting at the end of the audyssey setup and I always accept it since it's the default. I don't know if it's Dyamic EQ.

I'm not in front of my 4311 at the moment, but I believe this prompt is for dynamic volume and not dynamic eq.
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post #55 of 128
2/19/13 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I'm not in front of my 4311 at the moment, but I believe this prompt is for dynamic volume and not dynamic eq.

Is there an echo in here? biggrin.gif
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post #56 of 128
2/19/13 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Is there an echo in here? biggrin.gif

whoops--you beat me to it smile.gif
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post #57 of 128
2/19/13 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I hope you didn't turn on the Dynamic Volume setting!

Yah when I first got my Denon AVR-1610 I had turned on Dynamic Volume and didn't even realize it for about a month. I only use DynamicEQ now and have my sub output turned up +2db as well. I generally listen at -25db to -20db below reference. Though I do find the EQ process does dial down the mid-bass thump I had before any EQ. Without EQ I have a rather big 10-12db gain around 70Hz in my room.
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post #58 of 128
2/19/13 at 12:51pm
I'll be the first one to admit, that what I'm about to write could be wrong. But, Audyssey sets your speaker distance and your levels and should be about -3 from reference. On my AVR, it's 77db. Your sub will also at 77db, and whether you turn your sub gain up or if your AVR sub level is in the negative territory, your sub will still be at 77db on your AVR after Audyssey calibraiton.. After Audyssey sets your trim levels, you can change your sub trim level in your AVR if you think you need more base. Before you run Audyssey, you should set your sub at 50% volume and reduce the gain until you get it to +/- 3DB range. Then you shouldn't touch your gain on your sub. I'll confess, I messed with the gains on my sub and the Audyssey gods got their revenge and fried my receiver when I plugged my Audyssey mic in. Lesson learned.eek.gif
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post #59 of 128
2/19/13 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

I'll confess, I messed with the gains on my sub and the Audyssey gods got their revenge and fried my receiver when I plugged my Audyssey mic in. Lesson learned.eek.gif

eek.gif Well that wasn't very nice. eek.gif

(personally, I think your AVR was already fried before plugging the Audyssey microphone in and you plugging your microphone in completed what was ready to happen, all the way back at the assembly/testing point)

FWIW, I've had Audyssey set the sub gain down as far as -12.
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post #60 of 128
2/19/13 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

eek.gif Well that wasn't very nice. eek.gif

(personally, I think your AVR was already fried before plugging the Audyssey microphone in and you plugging your microphone in completed what was ready to happen, all the way back at the assembly/testing point)

FWIW, I've had Audyssey set the sub gain down as far as -12.

Believe it or not, I actually saw a spark from the Audyssey mic to the receiver mic plugin and after that, my Denon AVR 1613 couldn't hear my speakers. Dam static electricity...and the Audyssey Gods!
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