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Subwoofer audyssey calibration... weaksauce "reference level" - Page 3

post #61 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

Believe it or not, I actually saw a spark from the Audyssey mic to the receiver mic plugin and after that, my Denon AVR 1613 couldn't hear my speakers. Dam static electricity...and the Audyssey Gods!

Yup! Tell that to the service rep. tongue.gif

LOL!
post #62 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

eek.gif Well that wasn't very nice. eek.gif

(personally, I think your AVR was already fried before plugging the Audyssey microphone in and you plugging your microphone in completed what was ready to happen, all the way back at the assembly/testing point)

FWIW, I've had Audyssey set the sub gain down as far as -12.

-12db is an alert from Audyssey that your sub is out of calibration with your other speakers. This is why you need to turn your gain down to at least -3db and no more than +3db. I wouldn't sweat it if you get a -7, like I said, Audyssey will set your sub trim level to match your speakers so it really doesn't improve your bass by having your sub gain turned up that high. I know, it sounds counter intuitive. A small part of me died when I bought my Kliipsch RW-12D and had to turn it down to -18. I wanted to hear bass when watching people breathing.
post #63 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

-12db is an alert from Audyssey that your sub is out of calibration with your other speakers.

Not if Audyssey is turning all your gains down to -9 to -11. tongue.gif

I know some don't like to read this but Audyssey has a mind of it's own and sometimes it's mind has nothing to do with reality.

FWIW, before running Audyssey, the subs are ever so, very carefully, gain matched twice, at a measured 1m and the main listening position, using a personally calibrated sound meter.
post #64 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not if Audyssey is turning all your gains down to -9 to -11. tongue.gif

I know some don't like to read this but Audyssey has a mind of it's own and sometimes it's mind has nothing to do with reality.

FWIW, before running Audyssey, the subs are ever so, very carefully, gain matched twice, at a measured 1m and the main listening position, using a personally calibrated sound meter.

FWIW, unless something is broken, in recent Audyssey-equipped receivers (with dynamic EQ, etc.) the setup routine is trying to get the speakers to be set such that a band limited pink noise signal at -30 dBFS would be 75 dB in your room. If it turns down the speakers very far, it's most likely because the speakers are very sensitive (or efficient, which is impropre terminology but kinda gets the point across). Or there's intermediate gain staging (outboard amps) that raises output beyond what the receiver is designed to "expect."

It then sets the sub so that a -30 dBFS pink noise signal (bandwidth limited) will yield 75 dB at the listening position. Each speaker is tested and set separately. Whether it needs to set your front left and right at 0, +11, or -11 wil have no effect on what it does with the center, surrounds, or the sub. Obviously similarity of the non-subs may yield similar trims.
post #65 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not if Audyssey is turning all your gains down to -9 to -11. tongue.gif

I know some don't like to read this but Audyssey has a mind of it's own and sometimes it's mind has nothing to do with reality.

FWIW, before running Audyssey, the subs are ever so, very carefully, gain matched twice, at a measured 1m and the main listening position, using a personally calibrated sound meter.
I know you won't accept my advice, but if Audyssey is setting your sub trim to the end of the range, (-12), then you have the sub gains set too high. You are "out of range" for Audyssey's ability to correct. You can easily remedy the situation by simply turning your subs down EQUALLY. Then re-run Audyssey. It's not important to get them to "0", but it is important to get them into the adjustablity range that the receiver trim allows.

Craig
post #66 of 128
.....
post #67 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I know you won't accept my advice, but if Audyssey is setting your sub trim to the end of the range, (-12), then you have the sub gains set too high. You are "out of range" for Audyssey's ability to correct. You can easily remedy the situation by simply turning your subs down EQUALLY. Then re-run Audyssey. It's not important to get them to "0", but it is important to get them into the adjustablity range that the receiver trim allows.

Craig

Come on, man! Stop buying into the Audyssey propoganda! Let me guess, you read the manual and actually believe what it says, dontcha? There's a sucker born every day. wink.gif
post #68 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

If it turns down the speakers very far, it's most likely because the speakers are very sensitive (or efficient, which is impropre terminology but kinda gets the point across).

The mains are 100dB/1w/1m and the center channel is 99dB/1w/1m. Yes, these are sensitive speakers. And yes, "efficient" is valid terminology because despite what purists like to say. It's the idea that counts.
post #69 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The mains are 100dB/1w/1m and the center channel is 99dB/1w/1m. Yes, these are sensitive speakers. And yes, "efficient" is valid terminology because despite what purists like to say. It's the idea that counts.
Quote:
Sidebar 3: Sensitivity or Efficiency?

If there are areas of loudspeaker performance which are as consistently confused as efficiency and sensitivity, I've yet to discover them. Audiophiles almost universally talk about a loudspeaker's "efficiency" when what they really mean is its "sensitivity": how loud it will go for a given input level. Why is there this confusion?

Historically, dating from the days of tube amplifiers, when power outputs were very limited and the question of power transfer to the loudspeaker was more significant, there is "efficiency." Strictly speaking, efficiency is the loudspeaker's acoustic power out for electrical power in. More usually it is expressed as a sound-pressure level at a specific distance, 1m, for 1W input; ie, in dB/W/m.

This is problematic, however, as there is no simple way of determining, for a given loudspeaker, what actually is a 1W input—it depends on impedance and frequency, as demonstrated in Table 1 in the measurements sidebar.

Since the advent of transistor amplifiers, which (ideally) act as voltage sources—like the Krell KSA-200S reviewed in this issue, they maintain the same output voltage no matter what the load and the current drawn—another concept has replaced efficiency: voltage "sensitivity." This is the sound-pressure level produced at 1m by a standard voltage input, defined as 2.83V. This odd value was chosen simply because it's the voltage necessary to produce 1W dissipation in an 8 ohm resistor. The advantage of specifying sensitivity is that it remains unchanged no matter what the impedance of the loudspeaker, as it is assumed that the amplifier will always be able to provide the necessary current to maintain the 2.83V.

The nearer a loudspeaker's modulus of impedance approaches a pure 8 ohm resistor, the nearer the two criteria; but when a speaker has an impedance that differs significantly from 8 ohms, they can be very different. Take the B&W Silver Signature and the Velodyne DF-661: the former has a measured sensitivity of 86.5dB, the latter 87.5dB, both for 2.83V drive at a 1m distance. Given the same drive signal, the sound-pressure level produced by the Velodyne will be 1dB higher than that of the B&W. Which is the more efficient?

Those who answered "The Velodyne, because it is louder for the same input voltage," go to the back of the classroom. Remember: Efficiency involves power, and to calculate power, you need to know the speaker's impedance. The B&W averages around 20 ohms in its upper midrange and treble, the Velodyne 5 ohms. To produce a level 1dB higher than the Silver Signature in this frequency region, the DF-661 sucks four times as much power from the amplifier and is therefore less efficient. Even though it is more sensitive!

In this case, the quieter loudspeaker is the more efficient, which is why Stereophile insists on talking about sensitivity. It is the only way you can meaningfully compare loudspeaker loudnesses.—John Atkinson
http://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-john-bowers-silver-signature-loudspeaker-sensitivity-or-efficiency

Call me a "purist" if you must. Call John Atkinson the same thing.

Craig

Edit: BTW, your Klipsch Reference speakers have a "nominal" impedance of 8 ohms, but they have an impedance dip to 3.2 ohms around port tuning. Therefore, their sensitivity will be quite different than their efficiency. So, no, the terms are not interchangeable, and your own speakers are the perfect example of the reason why it is so important to be precise with the terminology.

But, hey, carry on... it's the "idea" that counts. rolleyes.gif
Edited by craig john - 2/19/13 at 4:16pm
post #70 of 128
I don't mind if BeeMan always likes to recommend REW and mics to set things up properly ... But with all that nice gear you have to implement your gear, how do you still come up with Audyssey setting your sub trim to -12....

Like it or not, it is a FACT that your sub's gain is way too high. Audyssey will set, using a 30dbFS pink noise, every speaker in the your layout to 75dB. At -12 it means it can't adjust anymore.
post #71 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The mains are 100dB/1w/1m and the center channel is 99dB/1w/1m. Yes, these are sensitive speakers. And yes, "efficient" is valid terminology because despite what purists like to say. It's the idea that counts.

actually I stopped misusing "efficiency" after being set straight by non-high end engineer types. Either Bill Fitzmaurice or Bob Lee of QSC, probably. as indicated above, if the speaker had an impedance curve like a resistor (like my Maggies, except in the crossover region) they are easily compared flip sides of each other. A speaker that is 100 dB sensitive at one watt input is about 6 percent efficient in converting electricity to sound.

As I understand it, it's actually voltage that a linear speaker tracks linearly, and the amount of power involved depends on the impedance of the speaker (see Ohm's law, then apply the forumla voltage times current in amps equals power). Since speaker impedance varies with frequency, the actual amount of power needed depends on the complex impedance of the speaker and the complex frequency content of the test signal.
post #72 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

-12db is an alert from Audyssey that your sub is out of calibration with your other speakers.

Not if Audyssey is turning all your gains down to -9 to -11. tongue.gif

I know some don't like to read this but Audyssey has a mind of it's own and sometimes it's mind has nothing to do with reality.

FWIW, before running Audyssey, the subs are ever so, very carefully, gain matched twice, at a measured 1m and the main listening position, using a personally calibrated sound meter.

Why twice? Gain matched is gain matched, if done correctly it won't change. Of course if you're level matching then you can expect changes. -9-11db means your subs gain is too high and you need bring it more in line or risk driving it into clipping.
None of what you report makes sense. Where are those graphs of the new drivers?
post #73 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I hope you didn't turn on the Dynamic Volume setting!

I did. It's set to 'night' right now. Should I turn it off?
post #74 of 128
I have a question regarding audyssey and using the mains.

After running audyssey, it set my mains to large. I changed them to small and set the crossover to 80Hz.

My question is...
When Audyssey calibrated my subs, did it take into acoount my mains would be playing roughly 40-80Hz and tune down my subs eq curve in that range to compensate?
Or does it calibrate each speaker separately (Outside of calibrating all subs together)?
post #75 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I did. It's set to 'night' right now. Should I turn it off?

If you want to experience the full dynamic range, yes you should turn it off. The night setting severely limits the dynamics. It's not surprising you may have felt a lack of bass or punch with it on. You only want to use dynamic volume if you want all content to be at about the same volume. It is useful at night so you don't disturb others.

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2010/04/more-than-just-volume-spikes/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_G

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have a question regarding audyssey and using the mains.

After running audyssey, it set my mains to large. I changed them to small and set the crossover to 80Hz.

My question is...
When Audyssey calibrated my subs, did it take into acoount my mains would be playing roughly 40-80Hz and tune down my subs eq curve in that range to compensate?
Or does it calibrate each speaker separately (Outside of calibrating all subs together)?

Non pro versions of audyssey do not take the crossover into account when calculating filters. Each speaker / sub is measured and adjusted individually in an attempt to match its target curve. Even if it did take into account the different crossover, it wouldn't need to tone down the sub. The crossover itself takes care of that.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_C

If you have more Audyssey questions, I would suggest posting in the Audyssey thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1

-Mike
post #76 of 128
Thnaks for the response and the links. I'll turn off dynamic volume tonight.
post #77 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Thnaks for the response and the links. I'll turn off dynamic volume tonight.

Try Off, Day and Evening. Each has its time and place for some of us.

I like Midnight mode for watching movies before everyone else in the house is awake. I can turn it down and still have clear dialogue.

"Off" is certainly the most fun though, when it's appropriate for me to use it.
post #78 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post

I just ran Audyssey and it had all my speakers, sub included in the minus numbers. I pulled out my Radio Shack analog sound meter and went into the receivers (Integra 40.2) sound settings and calibrated it set at 80db. It bumped up my sub from -12 to +6. Not sure why Audyssey did this. Maybe someone more in the know can help.

Jeff

I used to get -12 from Audessy. On the back of your sub, turn the dial starting at 9 o'clock. Mine was set to 12 o clock and was giving me -12. Turning the volume knob to 9 o'clock immedialty bumped it up to +5! This shows you how sensitive Audessy is. So i nudged it up a bit incrementally (ever so slightly) and ran Audessy a few times till I got to 0 db.
post #79 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I don't mind if BeeMan always likes to recommend REW and mics to set things up properly ... But with all that nice gear you have to implement your gear, how do you still come up with Audyssey setting your sub trim to -12....

Like it or not, it is a FACT that your sub's gain is way too high. Audyssey will set, using a 30dbFS pink noise, every speaker in the your layout to 75dB. At -12 it means it can't adjust anymore.
+1
Perhaps his SPL meter is not accurate.
post #80 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post

I just ran Audyssey and it had all my speakers, sub included in the minus numbers. I pulled out my Radio Shack analog sound meter and went into the receivers (Integra 40.2) sound settings and calibrated it set at 80db. It bumped up my sub from -12 to +6. Not sure why Audyssey did this. Maybe someone more in the know can help.

Jeff
I think many people experience this. Audyssey gives a value but 99% of the time, the SPL meter will under-read...so people tends to bump up the trim to 75dB direct-reading on their SPL meter. It's weird that I have never heard anyone saying that their SPL meter over-read...it's always under-read.

Now, here's the question: Is their SPL meters accurate? Or is the Audyssey mic accurate?
post #81 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

I think many people experience this. Audyssey gives a value but 99% of the time, the SPL meter will under-read...so people tends to bump up the trim to 75dB direct-reading on their SPL meter. It's weird that I have never heard anyone saying that their SPL meter over-read...it's always under-read.

Now, here's the question: Is their SPL meters accurate? Or is the Audyssey mic accurate?

Most of us are presumably using the radio shack meter, which reads a bit low below 125 Hz and very low below about 30 Hz

http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/rsmeter.html
post #82 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

I think many people experience this. Audyssey gives a value but 99% of the time, the SPL meter will under-read...so people tends to bump up the trim to 75dB direct-reading on their SPL meter. It's weird that I have never heard anyone saying that their SPL meter over-read...it's always under-read.

Now, here's the question: Is their SPL meters accurate? Or is the Audyssey mic accurate?
The Audyssey mic's are "batch-calibrated" and spec'd within +/- 2 dB. They've been tested to meet that spec.

More importantly, if you use the receiver's test tones and an SPL meter to measure the SPL after running Audyssey, the effects of Audyssey are bypassed. Audyssey is out of the signal path when the test tones are played. The internal test tones are worthless for setting the levels if Audyssey is used. Receiver manufacturers should disable the test tones if Audyssey is engaged. The user should only be able to use them if they shut Audyssey off, just like they are only able to use the manual EQ if Audyssey is off.

If you want to verify the Audyssey level settings, the only valid way to do it is to use external test tones like the ones provided by a test disc like Avia or DVE or The 5.1 Audio Toolkit. Then ensure that Audyssey is turned on, and play the tones through Audyssey. For the most part, you will find that Audyssey has gotten the relative calibration correct; all the speakers and sub(s) will measure the same. The absolute calibration may be off by 2 dB or so, due to the tolerances of the mic. IOW, all the speakers might measure 73 dB instead of 75. That is much less problematic than having the relative calibration incorrect, which is what you would end up with if you use the internal test tones to set the levels post-Audyssey.

Craig
post #83 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Thnaks for the response and the links. I'll turn off dynamic volume tonight.

I turned it off and now everything sounds much lower. I used to have the volume at -40db and now I have to set it at -30db to sound the same. I think I did gain some range, but now the sound level is much more up and down. As would be expected. I guess I need to get used to it.
post #84 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I turned it off and now everything sounds much lower. I used to have the volume at -40db and now I have to set it at -30db to sound the same. I think I did gain some range, but now the sound level is much more up and down. As would be expected. I guess I need to get used to it.

Make senses that everything is lower since Dynamic volume lowers the louds and boosts the quiet scenes
post #85 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The Audyssey mic's are "batch-calibrated" and spec'd within +/- 2 dB. They've been tested to meet that spec.

More importantly, if you use the receiver's test tones and an SPL meter to measure the SPL after running Audyssey, the effects of Audyssey are bypassed. Audyssey is out of the signal path when the test tones are played. The internal test tones are worthless for setting the levels if Audyssey is used. Receiver manufacturers should disable the test tones if Audyssey is engaged. The user should only be able to use them if they shut Audyssey off, just like they are only able to use the manual EQ if Audyssey is off.

If you want to verify the Audyssey level settings, the only valid way to do it is to use external test tones like the ones provided by a test disc like Avia or DVE or The 5.1 Audio Toolkit. Then ensure that Audyssey is turned on, and play the tones through Audyssey. For the most part, you will find that Audyssey has gotten the relative calibration correct; all the speakers and sub(s) will measure the same. The absolute calibration may be off by 2 dB or so, due to the tolerances of the mic. IOW, all the speakers might measure 73 dB instead of 75. That is much less problematic than having the relative calibration incorrect, which is what you would end up with if you use the internal test tones to set the levels post-Audyssey.

Craig

Craig,

I may have asked you this before, but want to actually do it tonight. biggrin.gif

Can I use REWs pink noise to perform this calibration? I'm guessing the only way to do this right is to set my receiver to Multi-Channel Stereo (full range signal to all speakers) then connect only one speaker at a time, play the pink noise and adjust....sound right?

Since we can't trust our RatShack meters, how would one go about making certain that 0db on the AVRs MV is actually "Reference Level"?

Thanks!
post #86 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Since we can't trust our RatShack meters, how would one go about making certain that 0db on the AVRs MV is actually "Reference Level"?

Thanks!

If calibrating via Audyssey, 0db is reference level. You can choose to make reference level whatever you want it to be. I technically could make reference -5 instead of 0 by bumping up each channel by 5db's. If you want to confirm this, you can use a -30dbfs signal and your SPL meter to verify 75 db's at 0 (or 85 db with a -20 signal) if you choose. As mentioned earlier, Aud is pretty accurate with speaker levels (at least that I have found). It's the sub that it fubars.
post #87 of 128
^^^^

Every time I run Audyssey (which has been a lot lately), it sets all my speakers to 72db and my subs to ~70db according to my RatShack meter using the AVRs internal test tone. I've been bumping all of them up to 75db with the AVRs internal tone (I now know this is the wrong method) and it sounds much MUCH better than at the Audyssey set levels. The exception being my surround speakers, I leave them at 72db - at 75db they are just too much IMO. Any explanation for this phenomenon?
post #88 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

^^^^

Every time I run Audyssey (which has been a lot lately), it sets all my speakers to 72db and my subs to ~70db according to my RatShack meter using the AVRs internal test tone. I've been bumping all of them up to 75db with the AVRs internal tone (I now know this is the wrong method) and it sounds much MUCH better than at the Audyssey set levels. The exception being my surround speakers, I leave them at 72db - at 75db they are just too much IMO. Any explanation for this phenomenon?
When comparing one sound system to another, most people "prefer" the one that is louder. You are simply raising the overall volume of the system, while changing the front/surround balance and setting the subwoofer a little hot, so it's not surprising that you "prefer" the louder one. To make a fair comparison, you would need to level-match the final result. Instead of bumping the trims up 3 dB, turn the MVC up 3 dB. It's effectively the same thing, but you'll retain the "relative calibration." If you still don't like the balance of front soundstage to surround stage, you can always bump the surrounds down to your preference. If you prefer the subs a little hot, you can bump them up also to your preference. But you'll still be "absolute calibrated" to Reference Level, (within the +/- 2 dB of the mic's tolerances.)

Craig
post #89 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

When comparing one sound system to another, most people "prefer" the one that is louder. You are simply raising the overall volume of the system, while changing the front/surround balance and setting the subwoofer a little hot, so it's not surprising that you "prefer" the louder one. To make a fair comparison, you would need to level-match the final result. Instead of bumping the trims up 3 dB, turn the MVC up 3 dB. It's effectively the same thing, but you'll retain the "relative calibration." If you still don't like the balance of front soundstage to surround stage, you can always bump the surrounds down to your preference. If you prefer the subs a little hot, you can bump them up also to your preference. But you'll still be "absolute calibrated" to Reference Level, (within the +/- 2 dB of the mic's tolerances.)

Craig

+1
post #90 of 128
I getcha Craig, but I swear that with the levels bumped up, it sounds better at all volume levels - could this have something to do with Audyssey's Dynamic EQ and how it interacts with the speaker trim levels?

I'm gonna try resetting the trims to where Audyssey set them tonight and do some listening (or, just re-run Audyssey...again rolleyes.gif ) - I'll report back!
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