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La SEOS - Page 3

post #61 of 127
2/28/13 at 2:29pm
Carl, this is outstanding work. The images are great, nice stuff. I too love the gigantis form factor stuff.

Thru the mid 90's, when I wasn't otherwise working, I hooked up with mixed (pro-bono redface.gif ) a club gigging/rock act. They'd lug around this Altec VotT based PA, that simply sounded wonderful... great fun. I supplemented with aux fed JBL subs, ... what a fun time.

What you're doing is so cool, and you certainly look like you've got the chops. Those big bi-radial JBL horns were way ahead of their time ... Keele did some outstanding work. He still does cool.gif


Carl,
Thanks for sharing and best of luck
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post #62 of 127
2/28/13 at 4:28pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the kind words FOH,

Aah ... JBL 4350 (your avatar). I love those old girls. Maybe a pair of those should be my next clone project!



_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #63 of 127
3/1/13 at 2:32pm
I have the same 2360 horns now and using them on top of some JBL 4520 with double 15" 2225 drivers and am delighted. Simple two-way system. I can't imagine how nice they would sound with those 2240h. I am definitely in love with the 2360. They need a lot of eq'ing above 3Khz to keep the Constant Directivity, and the sound dispersion is sweet.

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post #64 of 127
3/1/13 at 3:02pm
Thread Starter 
Lee,

Nice to see you here! It' s the 'EQ thing' that you sighted that caused me to use coaxial BMS 4590 CDs with my 2360 horns. Using a coaxial CD makes the EQ easier and knocks down that 'beamy harshness' that you hear when you push a single diaphragm into early breakup mode.
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #65 of 127
3/2/13 at 3:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Lee,

Nice to see you here! It' s the 'EQ thing' that you sighted that caused me to use coaxial BMS 4590 CDs with my 2360 horns. Using a coaxial CD makes the EQ easier and knocks down that 'beamy harshness' that you hear when you push a single diaphragm into early breakup mode.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff


What are you using those huge 2360 horns on, Carl? How is the La Seos build coming along?
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post #66 of 127
3/2/13 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

What are you using those huge 2360 horns on, Carl? How is the La Seos build coming along?

I used the JBL 2360 horns and BMS 4590 CDs that I have on the dual scoop project referenced back in Post #36 and they worked well in that application. As to the future, I have other ideas and projects rattling about in my head. We shall see!

The La SEOS project is weekend therapy for me. This weekend I hope to be plot the baseline frequency response of the lower cabinet. I will post my progress here.
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #67 of 127
3/2/13 at 8:52am
Lee in Montreal; what a spectacular image. The bi-radial horns bathed in that wonderfully diffuse natural light.

All too often, individuals forget, take for granted, the big engineering benchmarks within the industry. One could certainly do much worse than a pair of such properly executed behemoths.
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post #68 of 127
3/9/13 at 9:57am
Thread Starter 
Progress ...

Last weekend I added a brace between the dog house and side panels on either side. One of the changes that Klipsch made to the La Scala in 2006 was to thicken the vertical side panels of the cabinet to knock down mechanical vibration when pushing the driver hard. Presumably this brace accomplishes much of the same.



I also applied the vertical side walls and attached the dog house doors to the top and bottom of the cabinet.

Today I am ready for the first round of measurements if the weather clears as predicted ...
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 3/9/13 at 9:39pm
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post #69 of 127
3/9/13 at 4:40pm
Awesome. Ya I remember reading others using 25mm thickness instead to delete some of the mechanical vibrations.
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post #70 of 127
3/9/13 at 9:56pm
Thread Starter 
Testing Begins ...

Here is my state of the art loudspeaker testing facility - corner of the garage on the plywood pile and barely out of the wind.



And of course the loudspeaker under test.



I used both Bill Waslo's OmniMic and the latest Dirac Live v2 tools to capture the bass bins frequency response. First up is OmniMic.



And then the plot captured by Dirac Live



The plots are quite similar and not too far from the sim that LTD02 offerd back in Post #22. The OmniMic plot shows a little more normalizing that the Dirac Live plot. Both clearly show that the LaScala has collapsing output below 100Hz. The LaScala's roots as a mid range commercial sound reinforcement cabinet is clearly evident. The stock LaScala needs help from a subwoofer. Presumably (hopefully??) we can improve upon that performance by adding volume and ports to a stock cabinet. We soon shall see! More to come ...

And what's that notch about at 100Hz? I wonder if that is an artifact of the Crites driver. Would using a different driver get rid of it? Any ideas??
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 3/9/13 at 10:22pm
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post #71 of 127
3/10/13 at 1:38am
hornresp is showing that if you reduce the internal volume of the rear enclosure (doghouse) that the lower corner will move up which reduces the amount of the "dip" around 100hz.

but, the smaller enclosure also moves up the point where the port is likely to provide gain.

while you have relatively easy access, adding something like syrofoam blocks or anything else than can block off most of the area behind the driver would be worth a test run.
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post #72 of 127
3/10/13 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 
" ... adding something like styrofoam blocks or anything else than can block off most of the area behind the driver would be worth a test run."

I'll do today and see what happens. Thanks!
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #73 of 127
3/10/13 at 10:30am
Nice work Carl. Looking at that response I'd be pretty surprised if you will be able get an effective amount of output using a port. Porting isn't done too often with front loaded horns because it is tricky to get it to work well. It is done with your A7 cabs partly because there isn't much front horn loading happening relative to the Scalas. About the only way you will get a decent response is by cutting everything above 80hz.

I would highly suggest using flanking subs assuming this is a 2-channel effort. Will you have an extra crossover channel to effectively make these 3-ways? Are you familiar with Parham's write-ups on flanking subs? I would use some sort of pro subwoofer that gives moderate efficiency and tune it to around 20-40hz depending on your req's. I would still suggest trying to get as much extension as you can from the LaSEOS speakers because overlap between the mains and flanking subs in the crossover region is helpful.

Are these replacing the Iwata VOTT combos?
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post #74 of 127
3/10/13 at 10:42am
Carl, I've no input regarding the Dirac Live, but the OmnMic measurment could certainly use more SPL, getting the signal up out of the noise.

Outdoor, I'd experiment with both nearfield measuring, and groundplane measuring,..eliminating as much of the destructive acoustic interactions of the surroundings as possible.
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post #75 of 127
3/10/13 at 9:51pm
Thread Starter 
Coctostan - These cabs won't be replacing my IWATA VOTT cabs. Not too long ago I added Be diaphragms. I am so happy with those cabs. They have such a big and dynamic sound. I have no interest in replacing them. I built these La SEOS cabs mostly because I was curious and missed the smell of fresh sawdust and yellow carpenter's glue. The Klipsch La Scala has a religious following. People either love them or hate them. There seems to be nothing between those two positions. I wanted to find out what all of the fuss is about and form my own opinion while exploring best use of SEOS waveguides.

FOH - If you look closely at the OmniMIC plot you will notice that the vertical scale is much more constrained than that of the Dirac Live plot. I should have taken the time to stretch it out. If I had done that the OmniMIC and Dirac plots would have overlayed one another. You right in that there was a lot of ambient noise about. To get above the ambient I ran the stimulus on the test cabinet at a nominal 85dB. I'm sure that my neighbors appreciated that since I could hear it slapping back at me as it reflected off the houses across the street. The measurement mic was placed mid height and one meter away from the mouth of the cabinet.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 3/11/13 at 8:41am
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post #76 of 127
3/10/13 at 10:03pm
Thread Starter 
Putting a Lid on this Box ...

I spent the day closing up the top of the cabinet so that I will be ready to make ported measurements next weekend. I First added the ports and removable rear door.



Then I closed up the front and added the top board totally enclosing the cabinet. I used a brad nailer, clamps, screws and lots of yellow carpenters glue. I applied wood putty over the screws and set it aside to cure. Ported cab measurements are coming up next.



____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 3/11/13 at 9:24am
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post #77 of 127
3/11/13 at 6:43am
Gotcha, Carl ... you likely forgot more about this stuff than I'll ever learn.

Love this LaSEOS, great idea.

Best of luck
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post #78 of 127
3/11/13 at 8:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Gotcha, Carl ... you likely forgot more about this stuff than I'll ever learn ...

Not the case! But I appreciate the sentiment. Reality is I learn more every day and most often from others.

____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 3/11/13 at 1:20pm
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post #79 of 127
3/11/13 at 8:57am
I was just curious if these were for another room or Iwata replacements. I've only heard old school original LaScalas briefly. I wasn't really impressed relative to modern horns, but I can see why they have a following (aka they have a specific sound). I'll be interested in your impressions.
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post #80 of 127
3/11/13 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
Coctostan,

Do you have experience with the Wayne Parham versus the Earl Geddes and Todd Welti approaches to sub placement? Having spent 50 years in Michigan before moving to California and knowing Earl Geddes personally I tend to follow his approach. What is your experience?
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #81 of 127
3/11/13 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

CDo you have experience with the Wayne Parham versus the Earl Geddes and Todd Welti approaches to sub placement?/quote]

Parham and Geddes don't conflict really. Parham is basically a 4-5 sub Geddes, with two of them up front near the mains as "flanking subs" to help with floor bounce, and 2-3 randomly distributed in the room.
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post #82 of 127
3/11/13 at 9:18pm
Thread Starter 
"Parham and Geddes don't conflict really. Parham is basically a 4-5 sub Geddes, with two of them up front near the mains as "flanking subs" to help with floor bounce, and 2-3 randomly distributed in the room."

So it seems that I've been doing Parham compliant rooms all along and never knew it. How about that!
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #83 of 127
3/11/13 at 9:35pm
There is a twist to the Parham flanking sub idea. He runs the flanking subs in stereo because he crosses them over somewhere around 150 Hz.

Edit: I should have said that he low-passes the flanking subs around that frequency. I don't think he high-passes the mains.
Edited by andyc56 - 3/11/13 at 9:56pm
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post #84 of 127
3/11/13 at 9:59pm
Thread Starter 
"There is a twist to the Parham flanking sub idea. He runs the flanking subs in stereo because he crosses them over somewhere around 150 Hz."

Me too. I always try to run a pair up front as L/R stereo but crossed over at no more than 120Hz. usually the lows from the Center channel are mixed in as well.

Incidentally that is the default behavior for the first two subwoofers using Bass Management on the Datasat RS20i.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #85 of 127
3/12/13 at 9:19am
Right AndyC. I think Parham's approach is partly related to how high he runs his subs and partly due to the practicality of multi-subs for guys who are running 2-channel without bass management. If you are running your subs up 150-200hz, make sure they are very low Le low distortion subs. It is a little different than the typical requirements of AVS subs which prioritize ULF content.

Anyway you cut it I think LaSEOS will need subs to cover below 100hz adequately even for bass lite music.
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post #86 of 127
3/12/13 at 9:42am
Thread Starter 
" ... I think LaSEOS will need subs to cover below 100hz adequately even for bass lite music."

I am coming around to that opinion as well. Altho I will follow thru on the ported testing I don't expect to be enthralled by the results. Most likely I will end up blocking off both ends of the dog house and further reduce the internal volume by adding fill in an effort to reduce that 100Hz notch in the frequency response.

Of course the other possibility would be to apply a heavy dose of EQ using PEQ or Dirac Live. That would be an interesting excercise. However that wouldn't be an option for someone lacking those tools.
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #87 of 127
3/12/13 at 10:33pm
I have read on the Klipsch forum that others ported around 35-40hz and had great results. But I do like overkill so the 35hz port may not be enough to warrant the lesser midbass slam that these already provide.from 70hz and up/)maybe 80hz and up)
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post #88 of 127
3/12/13 at 10:51pm
this might be the first time quality measurements of the ported mod are documented.... looking forward to it!
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post #89 of 127
3/14/13 at 12:28pm
I remember the old days, when you could buy Klipsch un-Finished, to save a little $$$
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post #90 of 127
3/14/13 at 10:51pm
Thread Starter 
Ported Tuning of the La SEOS ...

As preparation for my weekend task of measuring the La SEOS cabinet I fired up WinISD and plotted a few curves of the Crites CW1526 in the cab. Below are the plots.



The WHITE line is the driver in a sealed volume of 3 cu ft. This approximates the performance of a traditional Klipsch La Scala minus the horn gain.

The GREEN line is the same driver in a 5.5 cu ft volume (includes the upper cabinet volume) with 2 vents tuned to 30Hz

The YELLOW line is the same driver in a 5.5 cu ft volume with 2 vents tuned to 40Hz. Note the 2dB bump between 60 and 70Hz.

My first set of measurements will be with a cabinet tuned to 30Hz. The second set will be with the cabinet tuned to 40Hz. I've made the top of the cabinet removable so that I can open it up and 'twiddle with the innards. Should be interesting! Much more to come ...
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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