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Finally measuring time! 8 FTWs and 2 Mal 21s. Need help - Page 2

post #31 of 128
Thread Starter 
Ok, will just use it. It looked pretty similar when I opened it up last night. I do need to do the mic calibration file stuff with it though, correct?
post #32 of 128
Yeah, it's been a long time for me, .. but it'll prompt you for it I believe.

OmniMic strength is it's ease of set up and use.
post #33 of 128
Ok, I just took some measurements to show you how things can change. These are with NO EQ at all and raw data.

First, the subs with no mains and 80hz crossover

Next, I added the mains with same crossover and nothing else changed

Finally, all I did was change the distance setting on the sub

Here was a low level sweep
post #34 of 128
Thread Starter 
Ok, that's kool. I may just unhook my mains when measure later on tonight just way can get a true feeling of what's going on with them.

After y'all mentioned using all the subs as one that got me thinking about all the left over channels on the 10x10. I could use three of them to mess with the LCRs since they are behind the screen and need some attention anyway. The Stewart screen came with the little eq plugins for them but Im sure the mini would work much better all around.
post #35 of 128
Thread Starter 
Now we're cooking with peanut oil!

[URL=http://][/URL]

Doesnt look too bad does it? Omnimic's software is much easier to use for sure! Wish I could start the sweep a little lower but this will work.
post #36 of 128
Better. smile.gif
post #37 of 128
That looks great!! Is that with Audyssey and dynamic eq? Which version of Omnimic?
post #38 of 128
Thread Starter 
Just audyssey. Subs level matched not hot or at least not as hot as will use them.

Its V2. Will hook up dsp now and see how that goes.
post #39 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Better. smile.gif

What should I do about that crossover dip at 80hz?

Bring up low end just couple db and at 80 or bring all down?
post #40 of 128
You need to bring down 50hz and 140hz a bit. Then it will look better.
post #41 of 128
or mess with phasing between the subs and the mains smile.gif
post #42 of 128
Starting to look much better. smile.gif

As mentioned above, knock down 50hz and 140hz and it will be looking very good. Then I would add a little boost down low. You have enough subs and amp to do that.
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post #43 of 128
Thread Starter 
Need a little help. Imagine that lol.

I hooked up the 10x10 with rcas 1 going into the analog 1 input and one going out analog 1 output that is then split to the clones. It seems like its just acting as a passthrough right now. No different than before I hooked it up. I put PEQ 4 slot to 50hz and dropped it -10db and nothing changes when doing a sweep.

There are 3 different settings on the front of the case, AES,toslink,spdif and then the presets of 1-4. I have the preset 1 that I saved and loaded lit up and have tried all the other 3 with no luck. I've loaded and saved the setting like 3 times and no luck.

I also got a faulty power source with the dsp. I had to go inside and get my daughters portable dvd player plug just to turn it on.
post #44 of 128
Yep something is definitely wrong.
You have almost 3 times the displacement I have, and this is what I get.
I run the 10kQ clone with 21's, like you, but far less of them.
Yours should be -3db around 4hz @ over 110db as well... easily.

post #45 of 128
Thread Starter 
Got it figured out, I wasnt hitting a green button that synced it way the files were actually running while saving. All good now and really loving this dsp and omnimic. Only thing I wish were differenct about the omnimic is the sweeps, they come from a disc and start higher than 3hz. I'm sure it would pick up a burnt disc and measure it but I'm way way cpu dumb. Give me some wood and I'll build you anything, give me a home or commercial idea and I'll create you one with the best software, give me a rope and I'll catch you a fish but cpu's mixed with audio/video and I'm done for unless its super easy which both of the systems just happen to be!

Here's my latest graph which I am happy with, very happy with for just the sub 80hz which is all I am focusing on right now, but something in my room is causing a suckout at 30 hertz. The 30hz suckout is in both front and second row when measuring. Its only 3-4 dbs after EQ but would like to figure it out since its obviously fixable if measured in two different spots.

I've also go a noise issue when trying to turn up the subs to make them hot which I've had every since I switched to Pro gear but would really love to eliminate it way can turn the dials up on the clones without hearing 60hz noise during quiet scenes in movies. I have greatly reduced it by unhooking the Dtv box and the Grafik eye also adds a little to it when lights are turned on for some reason. None of my speaker wires run with power except for one surround that is in a column and it is only for 15-18" or so and about 13" away. I have 2 places where they cross but most people have some places like that. I dont know if its the xlr cables or what but will pull my hair out one day trying to find the culprit.

I have my Denon using SW1 and SW2 with Y connector going into dsp analog input 1 and then a Y connector coming out of analog 2 output of dsp to my special 1 RCA to 4 xlrs going to the clones. So two of the 1 rca to 4 xlr from a y out of the dsp. My question is, is there a better way to let the clones see more input voltage with my 1 to 4 cables. Like should I run SW1 analog to dsp 1 input, SW2 to dsp and then 1-4xlr output 1 and 1-4 xlr output 2????????
My thinking is, get the most voltage going to the clones way dont have to turn up gains and introduce noise. If that is out of the question then wire management may be not too far away but I've never been able to have a quiet speaker since switching to pro gear and dont really know if cable management will work. My QSC2450 has had noise in every application I've ever used it, my two plx3602s have, and the clones as well. No matter what room, , or configuration it seems like there is always some trace of noise unlike just using an AVR.

Alright the newest graph. I still havent listened to any material with it but looks good on the screen lol. I will venture to the LCRs next and tame that 150hz spike down and bring up whats needed due to the AT screen which will be a breeze since can just turn up my QSC PLX 3602s and cut where needed. Gotta love having more power going to my LCRs than many do to their subs!!! Them amps really make the triple 8s sing! I only wish the new horn 12s were in the making when I was in building phase!!! I almost got the triple 12s but too many people thought 8s where better sounding overall but would have went with the horn 12s for sure.


[URL=http://][/URL

Oh, and I dont know what I'm looking at here with the distortion. Is it on par with the volume or what? Good, bad, ugly?

And the waterfall graphs on the omnimic software look completely different than rew but will post one just way can have a before and after once I do room treatments (dreaded!).
Edited by audiovideoholic - 2/26/13 at 12:36am
post #46 of 128
Thread Starter 
Bass decay.

[URL=http://][/URL]

Oh,and my seating from speakers is as follows. Figure might be rather useful 14'2" and 21'4". All measurements will be from 14'2" unless noted.To the back wall is 30'7" and behid the baffle wall there is aprox 4'-4'2".
post #47 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Yep something is definitely wrong.
You have almost 3 times the displacement I have, and this is what I get.
I run the 10kQ clone with 21's, like you, but far less of them.
Yours should be -3db around 4hz @ over 110db as well... easily.


What do you mean? Are you saying because the volume isnt turned up? I have been testing only to see the graph not how loud it is but that will be next. May just wake the wife up here in the next few minutes lol. Gotta hear what a somewhat flat FR sounds like and then boost the shat out of the low end.

Should I click the bypass button on the 10hz filter on the mindsp? I wonder if that is what is causing it but its not too much more than that now after getting everything figured out.
Edited by audiovideoholic - 2/26/13 at 1:37am
post #48 of 128
Thread Starter 
Here I added db in the dsp both input and output to make bass little hotter just trying to see if could do it without introducing any noise and it worked. I added input +4 and output +6. Anything wrong with doing this, help as I like what it did. I could up it more I assume but about done for tonight as this is very time consuming. I have to go in and out of the theater, unhook and rehook up mic, hdmi, and power cord every time I change something. I feel like I've gotten somewhere though!

[URL=http://][/URL]
post #49 of 128
It depends on your preference and goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

In this one you're running 10db hot compared to your mids.
With -1db@20hz, -3db@50hz, -10db@140hz you'd have a perfectly level graph below 600hz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

In this one you're running 20db hot compared to your mids.
The 70hz to 130hz suckout wouldn't look that large if you reduce the 50hz and 140hz humps.

Personally I don't like more than a 10db boost above 30hz.
Below 30hz you can almost never have too much boost (within the subs limits of course).


For the CD. Just download Nero and Audacity. Make the sinewave files with Audacity and drag and drop the files into Nero, pop in the CD, and hit burn. It's easy.

http://download.cnet.com/Audacity/3000-2170_4-10058117.html
post #50 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

It depends on your preference and goal.
In this one you're running 10db hot compared to your mids.
With -1db@20hz, -3db@50hz, -10db@140hz you'd have a perfectly level graph below 600hz.

Yeah I like that one for movies
In this one you're running 20db hot compared to your mids.
The 70hz to 130hz suckout wouldn't look that large if you reduce the 50hz and 140hz humps.

I liked how this sounded with music but getting that 50hz hump any lower won't be happening. I've already cut and cut it. The 140hz hump is the mains and will work on that when hook them up to the dsp

Personally I don't like more than a 10db boost above 30hz.
Below 30hz you can almost never have too much boost (within the subs limits of course).


For the CD. Just download Nero and Audacity. Make the sinewave files with Audacity and drag and drop the files into Nero, pop in the CD, and hit burn. It's easy.

http://download.cnet.com/Audacity/3000-2170_4-10058117.html

Is there a way to save to separate settings for the same inputs/outputs and change them without hooking up the CPU?
post #51 of 128
Thread Starter 
Been at it for another few hours with the LCRs included and cant say am moving as fast as I would like by any means. I've dealt with highend EQs for car audio and this is my first one for the theater. Just not happy with only being able to raise/lower 5-5 points per speaker. I have a feeling someone that knew what they were doing could easily get me a smooth graph by messing with the different slope xovers along with other little tricks. Clicking on a frequency and boosting it or lowering it just gets you part of the way there.

I feel like I am making improvements every day but am now thinking of back tracking and splitting the subs up into at least two groups because that 30hz suckout and 50hz spike are driving me nuts. Then the crossover range from 80-100hz is causing problems that I just cant fix with a smooth curve while going from hot subs to mains.

Please stay patient with me as I'm killing myself with the up and down. Litterally have sore legs from two nights of measurements lol. Wow!

Here is the latest with the LCRs included.

[URL=http://][/URL]
post #52 of 128
Thread Starter 
I just finished listening to some music and have a major problem!!!

I cannot get the subs to play loud without turning all the gains up on the amp and AVR SW control. The lights arent even blinking when playing at 110+db levels.

I turned the gains up on the dsp on the outputs and inputs last night when was playing around trying to get a hot graph and it worked without introducing hum into the system. Should I turn up the gains on the dsp and if so what are the risks in controling the volume that way?

I also remeber reading that using the pheonix inputs (I think) gave more input voltage to the amps. If that is the case should I cut my rcas and wire them like that?

One thing after another. May just start by using two inputs on the dsp for the subs ensteadof on with a Y going in and out. Vistit to radio shack tomorrow will be on the list. Funny how I have a peg board full of cables and wires but out of rcas of all things.
post #53 of 128
I wouldn't call that area at 30hz a suckout, it is literally less than 5dB, not a major issue I assure you. The crossover region is always the trickiest. try adjusting the phase/delay on your subs and see if it helps, also, in your AVR, try adjusting the LCR crossover points anywhere in between 60 and 120hz to see what yields the best results. Boosting a tiny null like that is a terrible idea, as boost as much as you want, it won't fix it and will only suck all the headroom you have out of the system...It might also contribute to that higher 50hz area. I prefer to use ONLY cuts if at all possible but the less eQ overall the better...
Quote:
Funny how I have a peg board full of cables and wires but out of rcas of all things.

I only have about 30 extra laying around, I can send you a load full if you want...
post #54 of 128
Thread Starter 
Yeah beast I totally agree about boosting but the 30hz suck out is 9-10 db before any EQ. I'm thinking that I may be measuring the wrong way. I have the mic on a tripod right at my ear placement a couple inches away from my chairs headrest. Even when there aren't any signals playing the mic has a similar curve as when they are playing. Is there a such thing as room frequency response of its own? I'm far from silent as the mic is reading around 50(low) 65(high) without anything but the CPU running in the room. I messed around tonight with some changes on the dsp output level and it fixed the lack of output from the clones easily. I also did away with the +3db boost at 10hz and it helped the 30hz problem on the distortion measurement part of omnimic which uses a different sweep then the FR measurement.

Should I be taking measurements with the mic right up against the leather seats where ears are located or should I slide the seats away and still measure in same spot?

I also did a little more experimenting and got almost the exact same graphs with different subs playing. I ran some with just the outer ones and then some with just the inner ones playing and they would almost overlap exactly.

Right now I have the dsp set with only boost at 30hz +3db with cuts everywhere else but am not happy with the hum I'm getting from the amps. I guess that is my next journey since have plenty of voltage to run everything the way it's hooked up.

Oh, and after removing the 10hz boost everything is dropping off around 7-8hz. Bassthathz said it shouldn't be dropping more than 4db or so down that low but it's a lot more than that. I bypassed the dsp filter but still getting bad roll off. Any ideas?
post #55 of 128
Yes the room will have it's own response. Typically that is around 40dB so 50-65dB's is a little high. Common suggestion is that your room measurements should be optimally 40dB's higher than the floor, so you should be running sweeps around 105dB's. You could probably still get away with around 90-95dB as many as you appear to be running.

Not sure about the buzz you are getting. That is strange but restructuring your gain setup might alleviate that.
post #56 of 128
The graph looks fine now. I wouldn't even worry about it, unless you can hear something wrong with it.
post #57 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

The graph looks fine now. I wouldn't even worry about it, unless you can hear something wrong with it.


Yeah, but it's hard to say really.

With some different parameters, using the actual FR measuring tool, then increase the rez so we can see better what's happening.

That graph essentially shows a -10dB scoop, an octave and a half wide, smack dab in the middle of "impact, kick, or punch" region. I'd suspect that's audible, if that's an accurate portrayal of what's going on.

Whatever works for you, but 45dB-105dB for LF analysis ... and you needn't include much higher than 200hz. That way graphically it'll be easier to determine what's going on. Also, as was stated above, you can increase the measured levels even higher, so you get the signal up out of the noise, ... for better S/N ratio.
post #58 of 128
Seeing your response extend below 12hz as it should, if you are down, I would love to pay to have you send me your entire OM rig so I can see if I still have the same response drop-off that I am still seeing through two different mics. That way I could clear any issues with the additional measuring rig I use. If you are down, and when you are done that is smile.gif
post #59 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Yeah, but it's hard to say really.

With some different parameters, using the actual FR measuring tool, then increase the rez so we can see better what's happening.

That graph essentially shows a -10dB scoop, an octave and a half wide, smack dab in the middle of "impact, kick, or punch" region. I'd suspect that's audible, if that's an accurate portrayal of what's going on.

Whatever works for you, but 45dB-105dB for LF analysis ... and you needn't include much higher than 200hz. That way graphically it'll be easier to determine what's going on. Also, as was stated above, you can increase the measured levels even higher, so you get the signal up out of the noise, ... for better S/N ratio.

I did try the FR tool like we had talked about and I have to use track number 2 which is what I would call fast/short sweeps. The graph looks very similar to that of the long sweeps used on track 3 with the distortion tool. For some reason i just dont like track 2 sound. the other track (3) that is used for distortion is what REW sweeps sound like I'll post one next time I'm out there. There isnt a way to play track 3 and use FR tool while getting a complete graph The 30hz dip and 45-65hz hump is there more pronounced with the FR tool. I'm getting everything to look a little better but something is still off as its dropping fast at 8 hz or so and the overall shape of the curve from 10-100hz is there even when nothing is playing. I'm going to put mic a little higher way it's above seat head rest and double check all avr settings.

The scoop is very audible as you put it. Rap music is like running subs hotter than have them set. It sounds good to me but know its not correct.
Edited by audiovideoholic - 2/28/13 at 6:38pm
post #60 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Seeing your response extend below 12hz as it should, if you are down, I would love to pay to have you send me your entire OM rig so I can see if I still have the same response drop-off that I am still seeing through two different mics. That way I could clear any issues with the additional measuring rig I use. If you are down, and when you are done that is smile.gif

What do you mean by extend below 12hz? Like your measurements aren't? I wouldn't mind loaning it. What are you using now, rew?
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